Mattingly v. Martinez for the Defense.

sweaver · 08-19-2003, 12:06 PM

Who was the best Yankee first baseman, defensively?

WiredTiger · 08-19-2003, 12:11 PM

I'd go with Mattingly pre-back injury.

Skip · 08-19-2003, 12:12 PM

I bet Wolf will say Mattingly, defensively. Or is it that he'll defensively say Mattingly?

J/K Wolf, you know I love ya.

sweaver · 08-19-2003, 12:16 PM

I don't know, I think you have to include the injured years for Mattingly. And if you do, Tino comes out on top.

gyb13 · 08-19-2003, 12:17 PM

i'll start posting some of the 'objective' measures:

Donnie .996 Fielding % (vs .992 Lg)
Tino .995 Fielding % (vs .992 Lg)

Donnie 9.33 RF (vs 8.41 Lg)
Tino 8.80 RF (vs 8.58 Lg)

Ytown Tribe fan · 08-19-2003, 12:34 PM

Mattingly has 29.0 defensive Win Shares in 14,099 innings, which is 2.06 dWS per 1000 innings.

Tino has 30.2 dWS in 11,624 innings, which is 2.60 dWS/1000 innings. That is the best rate ever, of the top 290 firstbasemen (based on defensive innings).

KCBOOMER · 08-19-2003, 12:44 PM

Well, it's not like either of them was John Mayberry!

Wolf Hopper · 08-19-2003, 12:47 PM

Tino is like Steve Garvey. Donnie is like Keith Hernandez.

Would anyone suggest that Garvey was better than Mex?

Even when Mattingly had the back, it never bothered him in the field.

Tino never made a mistake. Anything he could catch, he caught. His throws to 2nd on the 3-6-3 were always perfect. He was as solid as solid could be, for a normal 1B.

Mattingly did all this - and then made the incredible plays too that Tino could only dream about making. Mattingly was so gifted with the glove that he filled in at 3rd base in an emergency, as a LH thrower.

Tino could have not played 3B, even as a RH thrower.

Comparing Tino to Mattingly, in terms of the glove at 1B is like comparing a Cadilliac to a Porsche - - both are great - - but the Porche is a lot better.

SmedIndy · 08-19-2003, 02:27 PM

But the numbers don't lie - right Nick Bakay? Or they only don't lie when they agree with your original position.

Wolf Hopper · 08-19-2003, 02:32 PM

Fielding stats Smedie, fielding stats. What do they really tell us?

SmedIndy · 08-19-2003, 02:39 PM

Win shares tell us a lot - Wolfie - and that's where Tino has the advantage.

Wolf Hopper · 08-19-2003, 02:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SmedIndy

Win shares tell us a lot - Wolfie - and that's where Tino has the advantage.

For a 1B? Educate me. How do they tell us a lot?

SmedIndy · 08-19-2003, 02:46 PM

Have you read Win Shares - the explanation of fielding stats goes in to excrutiating detail and tries to factor in everything (handedness of staffs, prevalence of certain play combinations, etc.) and account for them. I don't have it here at work, but it's extensive.

Wolf Hopper · 08-19-2003, 02:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SmedIndy

Have you read Win Shares - the explanation of fielding stats goes in to excrutiating detail and tries to factor in everything (handedness of staffs, prevalence of certain play combinations, etc.) and account for them. I don't have it here at work, but it's extensive.

This is what Mickey Litchman said about it:

Quote:

Win Shares is not very good at evaluating defense. As I'm sure you also know, Win Shares in general is designed more to "evaluate" actual performance rather than ability, which although related are not the same thing. In other words, Win Shares is better at answering questions like "Who had the greatest contribution to their team or created the highest value to their team, rather than who was the 'best' (hitter or fielder), in terms of theoretical contribution or value to their team, which is essentially the same thing as who you would rather have on your team or who would most likely provide the greatest value to a hypothetical team or a team in the future.

Anyway, the principal reason why defensive Win Shares is not a good evaluator of defensive ability is that any defensive "metric" that does not use play by play data is necessarily not very good. I suppose it is OK to use defensive Win Shares to compare one player to another as long as one keeps in mind that the result of the comparison does not have a high degree of certainty or confidence attached to it. Sort of like comparing two players' batting averages. Although the one with the higher BA can be stated as the better of the two players if we knew nothing else about wither player, our level of certainty in that result would be low.

It sums up the way I see it as well.

SmedIndy · 08-19-2003, 03:12 PM

But it's the best metric we have - and I'll use that before just going in cold.

08-19-2003, 12:06 PM	#1
sweaver Netshrine Cleanup Hitter Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: The Mountain State Posts: 8,883	Mattingly v. Martinez for the Defense. Who was the best Yankee first baseman, defensively?

08-19-2003, 12:17 PM	#5
gyb13 NS Omnipresent Brasilian Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Crazy George's playground Posts: 10,903	i'll start posting some of the 'objective' measures: Donnie .996 Fielding % (vs .992 Lg) Tino .995 Fielding % (vs .992 Lg) Donnie 9.33 RF (vs 8.41 Lg) Tino 8.80 RF (vs 8.58 Lg) __________________ Gustavo NDF Moderator Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. - Benjamin Franklin

08-19-2003, 12:44 PM	#7
KCBOOMER NetShrine All-Century Team Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Home of the T-Bones Posts: 11,116	Well, it's not like either of them was John Mayberry! __________________ KCBOOMER *Buck O'Neil: The Monarch of Baseball*

08-19-2003, 12:47 PM	#8
Wolf Hopper NetShrine Creator & Curator Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: NetShrine WHQ Posts: 6,191	Tino is like Steve Garvey. Donnie is like Keith Hernandez. Would anyone suggest that Garvey was better than Mex? Even when Mattingly had the back, it never bothered him in the field. Tino never made a mistake. Anything he could catch, he caught. His throws to 2nd on the 3-6-3 were always perfect. He was as solid as solid could be, for a normal 1B. Mattingly did all this - and then made the incredible plays too that Tino could only dream about making. Mattingly was so gifted with the glove that he filled in at 3rd base in an emergency, as a LH thrower. Tino could have not played 3B, even as a RH thrower. Comparing Tino to Mattingly, in terms of the glove at 1B is like comparing a Cadilliac to a Porsche - - both are great - - but the Porche is a lot better. __________________ Steve, Forum Administrator POSTING TIP FOR THE DAY: When composing a post, think about what you would say if the intended recipient was an individual who was actually sitting just two feet in front of you, in person, rather than just some far away and anonymous audience who only can identify you as text on a PC screen - - and then write your post in that manner. It makes for remarkable and sincere discourse.

08-19-2003, 02:32 PM	#10
Wolf Hopper NetShrine Creator & Curator Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: NetShrine WHQ Posts: 6,191	Fielding stats Smedie, fielding stats. What do they really tell us? __________________ Steve, Forum Administrator POSTING TIP FOR THE DAY: When composing a post, think about what you would say if the intended recipient was an individual who was actually sitting just two feet in front of you, in person, rather than just some far away and anonymous audience who only can identify you as text on a PC screen - - and then write your post in that manner. It makes for remarkable and sincere discourse.

08-19-2003, 12:11 PM	#2
WiredTiger Guest Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: The city of Kaline, Cobb and Greenberg Posts: 3,395	I'd go with Mattingly pre-back injury.

08-19-2003, 12:12 PM	#3
Skip NetShrine Vagabond Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Louisville Posts: 7,866	I bet Wolf will say Mattingly, defensively. Or is it that he'll defensively say Mattingly? J/K Wolf, you know I love ya.

08-19-2003, 12:16 PM	#4
sweaver Netshrine Cleanup Hitter Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: The Mountain State Posts: 8,883	I don't know, I think you have to include the injured years for Mattingly. And if you do, Tino comes out on top.

08-19-2003, 12:34 PM	#6
Ytown Tribe fan Guest Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Scrappers territory Posts: 2,515	Mattingly has 29.0 defensive Win Shares in 14,099 innings, which is 2.06 dWS per 1000 innings. Tino has 30.2 dWS in 11,624 innings, which is 2.60 dWS/1000 innings. That is the best rate ever, of the top 290 firstbasemen (based on defensive innings).

08-19-2003, 02:27 PM	#9
SmedIndy NetShrine's Historian Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Zionsville, IN Posts: 10,569	But the numbers don't lie - right Nick Bakay? Or they only don't lie when they agree with your original position.

08-19-2003, 02:39 PM	#11
SmedIndy NetShrine's Historian Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Zionsville, IN Posts: 10,569	Win shares tell us a lot - Wolfie - and that's where Tino has the advantage.

08-19-2003, 02:46 PM	#13
SmedIndy NetShrine's Historian Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Zionsville, IN Posts: 10,569	Have you read Win Shares - the explanation of fielding stats goes in to excrutiating detail and tries to factor in everything (handedness of staffs, prevalence of certain play combinations, etc.) and account for them. I don't have it here at work, but it's extensive.

08-19-2003, 03:12 PM	#15
SmedIndy NetShrine's Historian Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Zionsville, IN Posts: 10,569	But it's the best metric we have - and I'll use that before just going in cold.

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