Relievers for Cooperstown

pwdennis · 08-03-2003, 02:40 PM

In a prior thread I opined: "... Needless to say, I haven't a clue as to how I would evaluate relievers for Cooperstown since comparisons between eras are impossible - I think I would have Gossage, Fingers, Eckersley, Sutter, Quisenberry and old timers Wilhelm, McMahon, McDaniel, and Face"

I left out Eck and Smith as being too recently retired

Who do you think belongs in. Are there some other old timers to consider (Ron Perranoski, Ted Abernathy, Dick Worthington ??)

JamesI · 08-03-2003, 02:43 PM

This is hard to decide. Wilhelm is the obvious one.

I would vote for Eck and Gossage and probably Sutter. Unsure about Quiz or Fingers or Smith or the rest.

For actives, probably Rivera when the time comes.

sweaver · 08-03-2003, 02:50 PM

Hey, you beat me to this one!

I would put Goose Gossage and Hoyt Wilhelm in the Hall, for my money the two best relievers ever. Other than that, I might not choose anyone. I have Rollie Fingers at #3, and he is pretty far down the list as players in general go.

I might include Dennis Eckersley as a hybrid starter/reliever. He's really more of a starter, to me, but on combined value I think he gets in. John Smoltz is about to the same spot as well.

It depends a lot on how you value relievers. I don't give them a large amount of extra value, so I have them relatively low on the totem pole.

Skip · 08-03-2003, 03:22 PM

Gossage, Wilhelm, and Quis. I'm don't know enough about other old-timers besides Wilhelm to have a intelligent/reasonable opinion. I'd have no problem with Eck getting in, regardless of the category. Maybe Fingers, but probably not. No-one else of recent (last 35 years vintage).

JamesI · 08-03-2003, 05:08 PM

Sweav, you'd consider Smoltz?

He was not a Hall of Famer as a starter, and his relief career has just not been long enough to put him over the top. Give him another 4-5 years as a top reliever, and he can get in with Eck...

sweaver · 08-03-2003, 06:04 PM

Actually, that's my thinking exactly. Except more like 3 years than 4-5.

JamesI · 08-03-2003, 07:17 PM

oh, ok. Under those conditions, I would probably vote for him.

Jim Rice · 08-03-2003, 09:04 PM

Gossage, Wilhelm and Fingers, in that order, would get my votes. I would go for Eckersley as well, but for combined work, not strictly for his relief work.

All others are questionable to me, though I have one absolute: Those of you who support Bruce Sutter for the Hall MUST also support Dan Quisenberry, who was, quite simply, a better pitcher. To do otherwise is to invite a never-ending series of long, windy, fact-filled emails from me until you submit to my point of view or go into hiding to avoid me. There is no third option, unless you count death.

Time for my valium...

pwdennis · 08-04-2003, 09:44 AM

I really do think that some of the oldsters are worthy of consideration

Roy Face averaged about an inning and a half per relief appearence - his *era+ was better than the league average for 14 of his 16 seasons, he led the NL in saves thrice and was in the top ten eleven times. Since he often came into games where the pirates were tied or behind, he got a lot of decisions - he holds the single season record for highest winning % with his 18-1 season in 1959. Saves were much harder to obtain using the old rule so his career total of 193 doesn't look that impressive but he was very reliable for a long time

Don McMahon was a little moreup and down than face but his *era+ was better than the league average in 12 of his 18 seasons (career 119) - he too averaged 1.5 innings per relief appearence - his won-loss of 90-68 (.570) is excellent for a reliever. He led the NL in saves in 1959

Lindy McDaniel played for 21 years appearing in 987 games, 913 of them in relief. Playing mostly for poor or mediocre teams, McDaniel averaged over 1.7 IP per relief appearence his career won-lost log of 141-119 occurred mostly in relief. He led his league in saves three times

LeGrandOrange · 08-04-2003, 09:57 AM

I have to suggest Fred Marberry. He was the first great reliever, and a pretty decent starter when he needed to be. Plus, he was the first to 100 saves...he was a renassiance man.

Also, with apologies to pathogan, I'm going to suggest John Franco when he's retired. He gets an undeserved bad rap for cheapening the save because he didn't, he is worthy of the lion's share of his 423 saves. This is mainly because that career ERA of his is sparkling.

pathogan · 08-04-2003, 10:37 AM

...defintely, very few recent,none presently active[maybe smoltz if, IF he keeps this up for 4 more years]

sweaver · 08-04-2003, 10:39 AM

Part of me says that if we are going to put relievers in the Hall, we ought to put pinch-hitters in also. Lenny Harris, anyone?

Craig S. · 08-04-2003, 10:44 AM

Wilhelm, if anyone. I have a hard time giving a vote to a guy who pitches 80 innings a year. Smoltz could keep it up for 5 more years, and I still wouldn't give him consideration. In no way do I think an impressive relief career should push a career "good starter" into HOF status.

SmedIndy · 08-04-2003, 10:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sweaver

Part of me says that if we are going to put relievers in the Hall, we ought to put pinch-hitters in also. Lenny Harris, anyone?

Are you just trying to get my blood pressure up??

pwdennis · 08-04-2003, 01:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SmedIndy

Are you just trying to get my blood pressure up??

Smoky Burgess for Cooperstown campaign starts here !!!

08-03-2003, 02:40 PM	#1
pwdennis NetShrine All-Century Team Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Winter Springs, FL Posts: 2,503	Relievers for Cooperstown In a prior thread I opined: "... Needless to say, I haven't a clue as to how I would evaluate relievers for Cooperstown since comparisons between eras are impossible - I think I would have Gossage, Fingers, Eckersley, Sutter, Quisenberry and old timers Wilhelm, McMahon, McDaniel, and Face" I left out Eck and Smith as being too recently retired Who do you think belongs in. Are there some other old timers to consider (Ron Perranoski, Ted Abernathy, Dick Worthington ??) __________________ "I would submit that if the world survives for a million years, perhaps its finest hour may be that in the last half of the 20th century, when the power to blow up the world rested in the hands of a few men in two very unsophisticated and suspicious countries, we didn't do it, and one American, Richard Nixon, moved the cold war away from permanent confrontation toward victory. How could any wrong that he did compare with that?" - John Sears

08-04-2003, 09:44 AM	#9
pwdennis NetShrine All-Century Team Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Winter Springs, FL Posts: 2,503	I really do think that some of the oldsters are worthy of consideration Roy Face averaged about an inning and a half per relief appearence - his era+ was better than the league average for 14 of his 16 seasons, he led the NL in saves thrice and was in the top ten eleven times. Since he often came into games where the pirates were tied or behind, he got a lot of decisions - he holds the single season record for highest winning % with his 18-1 season in 1959. Saves were much harder to obtain using the old rule so his career total of 193 doesn't look that impressive but he was very reliable for a long time Don McMahon was a little moreup and down than face but his era+ was better than the league average in 12 of his 18 seasons (career 119) - he too averaged 1.5 innings per relief appearence - his won-loss of 90-68 (.570) is excellent for a reliever. He led the NL in saves in 1959 Lindy McDaniel played for 21 years appearing in 987 games, 913 of them in relief. Playing mostly for poor or mediocre teams, McDaniel averaged over 1.7 IP per relief appearence his career won-lost log of 141-119 occurred mostly in relief. He led his league in saves three times __________________ "I would submit that if the world survives for a million years, perhaps its finest hour may be that in the last half of the 20th century, when the power to blow up the world rested in the hands of a few men in two very unsophisticated and suspicious countries, we didn't do it, and one American, Richard Nixon, moved the cold war away from permanent confrontation toward victory. How could any wrong that he did compare with that?" - John Sears

08-04-2003, 10:37 AM	#11
pathogan william Blake's Innkeeper Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Brooklyn Posts: 2,828	Face ...defintely, very few recent,none presently active[maybe smoltz if, IF he keeps this up for 4 more years]

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08-03-2003, 02:43 PM	#2
JamesI Netshrine Vacuum Cleaner Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Potsdam, N.Y. Posts: 3,723	This is hard to decide. Wilhelm is the obvious one. I would vote for Eck and Gossage and probably Sutter. Unsure about Quiz or Fingers or Smith or the rest. For actives, probably Rivera when the time comes.

08-03-2003, 02:50 PM	#3
sweaver Netshrine Cleanup Hitter Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: The Mountain State Posts: 8,883	Hey, you beat me to this one! I would put Goose Gossage and Hoyt Wilhelm in the Hall, for my money the two best relievers ever. Other than that, I might not choose anyone. I have Rollie Fingers at #3, and he is pretty far down the list as players in general go. I might include Dennis Eckersley as a hybrid starter/reliever. He's really more of a starter, to me, but on combined value I think he gets in. John Smoltz is about to the same spot as well. It depends a lot on how you value relievers. I don't give them a large amount of extra value, so I have them relatively low on the totem pole.

08-03-2003, 03:22 PM	#4
Skip NetShrine Vagabond Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Louisville Posts: 7,866	Gossage, Wilhelm, and Quis. I'm don't know enough about other old-timers besides Wilhelm to have a intelligent/reasonable opinion. I'd have no problem with Eck getting in, regardless of the category. Maybe Fingers, but probably not. No-one else of recent (last 35 years vintage).

08-03-2003, 05:08 PM	#5
JamesI Netshrine Vacuum Cleaner Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Potsdam, N.Y. Posts: 3,723	Sweav, you'd consider Smoltz? He was not a Hall of Famer as a starter, and his relief career has just not been long enough to put him over the top. Give him another 4-5 years as a top reliever, and he can get in with Eck...

08-03-2003, 06:04 PM	#6
sweaver Netshrine Cleanup Hitter Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: The Mountain State Posts: 8,883	Actually, that's my thinking exactly. Except more like 3 years than 4-5.

08-03-2003, 07:17 PM	#7
JamesI Netshrine Vacuum Cleaner Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Potsdam, N.Y. Posts: 3,723	oh, ok. Under those conditions, I would probably vote for him.

08-03-2003, 09:04 PM	#8
Jim Rice Inducted Into The NetShrine Assembly of Fame Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Shawnee, KS Posts: 783	Gossage, Wilhelm and Fingers, in that order, would get my votes. I would go for Eckersley as well, but for combined work, not strictly for his relief work. All others are questionable to me, though I have one absolute: Those of you who support Bruce Sutter for the Hall MUST also support Dan Quisenberry, who was, quite simply, a better pitcher. To do otherwise is to invite a never-ending series of long, windy, fact-filled emails from me until you submit to my point of view or go into hiding to avoid me. There is no third option, unless you count death. Time for my valium...

08-04-2003, 09:57 AM	#10
LeGrandOrange Membership Suspended 4/11/04 Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Tacoma, WA Posts: 3,783	I have to suggest Fred Marberry. He was the first great reliever, and a pretty decent starter when he needed to be. Plus, he was the first to 100 saves...he was a renassiance man. Also, with apologies to pathogan, I'm going to suggest John Franco when he's retired. He gets an undeserved bad rap for cheapening the save because he didn't, he is worthy of the lion's share of his 423 saves. This is mainly because that career ERA of his is sparkling.

08-04-2003, 10:39 AM	#12
sweaver Netshrine Cleanup Hitter Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: The Mountain State Posts: 8,883	Part of me says that if we are going to put relievers in the Hall, we ought to put pinch-hitters in also. Lenny Harris, anyone?

08-04-2003, 10:44 AM	#13
Craig S. Guest Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Ohio Posts: 6,330	Wilhelm, if anyone. I have a hard time giving a vote to a guy who pitches 80 innings a year. Smoltz could keep it up for 5 more years, and I still wouldn't give him consideration. In no way do I think an impressive relief career should push a career "good starter" into HOF status.

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