The best of the best:

sweaver · 07-25-2003, 06:31 PM

CBS Sportsline is doing a series of polls on the best ever at each position. 1B was last week, and we missed it, this week is 2B.

http://www.sportsline.com/mlb/allstar/alltime-team

sweaver · 07-25-2003, 06:33 PM

Hmmm. Actually, they are doing it as a series of eliminations. Today is the 2B finals between Hornsby and Morgan, with Hornsby ahead.

Ytown Tribe fan · 07-25-2003, 07:00 PM

The interesting thing about middle infield positions is that defense doesn't count for much more there than anywhere else, when it comes to overall Win Shares, at least.

The top three defensive secondbasemen of all time (in career Win Shares) are Maz (112 dWS), Fox (111 dWS) and Collins (108 dWS). No one else is above 100 dWS.

Yet those numbers pale compared to the career Total Win Shares of the best players.

The top three in total WS are Collins (574 WS), Morgan (512 WS) and Hornsby (502 WS). Lajoie is close with 496 WS and everyone else is below 400.

That makes a pretty good case for Eddie Collins being the greatest secondbaseman ever, by any standard.

SmedIndy · 07-25-2003, 07:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sweaver

Hmmm. Actually, they are doing it as a series of eliminations. Today is the 2B finals between Hornsby and Morgan, with Hornsby ahead.

Heathens!

..superflious...

JamesI · 07-25-2003, 08:40 PM

Hornsby is absolutely crushing Morgan...

I voted Morgan, but not going to help...

Ytown Tribe fan · 07-25-2003, 08:44 PM

Here's another quick look at the top four:

Player...PA...OPS+

Collins...12032...141
Morgan...11329...132
Lajoie...10460...150
Hornsby...9475...175

I don't see how anyone could rate Morgan ahead of Collins, either offensively or defensively. People just see Morgan every damned day and he (and Bill James) help perpetuate the idea that he's the greatest there ever was at second base.

Only Rajah and Lajoie rate ahead of Collins as hitters ( in fewer PAs), and only Fox and Maz rate ahead defensively.

sweaver · 07-25-2003, 08:54 PM

It's the batting average. Most people still can't get past that.

JamesI · 07-26-2003, 12:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ytown Tribe fan

Here's another quick look at the top four:

Player...PA...OPS+

Collins...12032...141
Morgan...11329...132
Lajoie...10460...150
Hornsby...9475...175

I don't see how anyone could rate Morgan ahead of Collins, either offensively or defensively. People just see Morgan every damned day and he (and Bill James) help perpetuate the idea that he's the greatest there ever was at second base.

Only Rajah and Lajoie rate ahead of Collins as hitters ( in fewer PAs), and only Fox and Maz rate ahead defensively.

Not sure I can argue. I only voted Morgan as better than Hornsby...

Craig S. · 07-26-2003, 01:47 PM

I think one reason Morgan rates ahead of Collins for so many people is because of his current exposure, and the fact that many fans remember him as part of the great Reds' teams. The same can't be said for Collins, simply because he retired 75 years ago. I think his association with the Black Sox - despite not being involved - also influences people on some level.

He won 4 World Series, and his numbers both during the regular season and in the playoffs are incredible. Not sure why he's so overlooked.

Ytown Tribe fan · 07-26-2003, 05:30 PM

Bill James, in his NHBA, says that he uses a simple formula for ranking the players, based on five criteria: career Win Shares, Top 3 seasons' WS, Top 5 seasons' WS, WS per 162 games, and a "time adjustment" for modern players that gives a player credit depending on when he played; generally, the earlier the era the lower the credit.

Anyway, James says that his system is unbiased and direct -- it doesn't take into account whether he actually likes a player or not, he just goes by the numbers.

At second base, Collins has 574 career WS and Morgan has 512. Collins top 3 seasons are 43, 43 and 40 WS; Morgan's are 44, 40, 39WS; Collins top 5 total is 193, Morgan's is 197; Collins has 32.90 WS/162G, Morgan has 31.31 WS/162G. Collins is ahead in three categories and Morgan is ahead in one. Yet, James has Morgan ranked number 1 and Collins number 2 at second base. Hornsby is third in career WS and top 5 total, but is way ahead in Top 3 and WS/162, due to the dropoff after his top three seasons; and is rated third.

The explanation, which James doesn't directly state, is that Morgan gets a big credit for playing in the '60s and '70s and Collins loses points because he played teens and '20s, against presumably lamer competition.

The discrepency is far worse in centerfield, where Cobb is WAY ahead of Mays in every single category (it's not even close), but James ranks Mays number 1 and Cobb number 2, presumably for the same reason.

I have used the same argument when comparing Bonds' last two seasons with Ruth's peak years, so I can't really whine too much about James' placement of players with his method. But it can certainly be argued that he is wrong.

sweaver · 07-26-2003, 06:26 PM

When I rank them, I have Collins ahead of Morgan (though it pains me a bit) and Mays ahead of Cobb. Part of that is level of competition, part is hitters/pitchers era, and part is defense.

Ytown Tribe fan · 07-26-2003, 06:57 PM

I rank them Collins, Hornsby, Lajoie and Morgan at 2B; Cobb, Mays, Mantle, Speaker at CF.

huskerdru · 07-29-2003, 12:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ytown Tribe fan

Bill James, in his NHBA, says that he uses a simple formula for ranking the players, based on five criteria: career Win Shares, Top 3 seasons' WS, Top 5 seasons' WS, WS per 162 games, and a "time adjustment" for modern players that gives a player credit depending on when he played; generally, the earlier the era the lower the credit.

He also states, however, that he does have a final subjective element, which obviously allows for the introduction of personal bias. Additionally, he gives some amount of credit for years missed beyond a player's direct control (e.g., military service).

He has the 2B as: Morgan, Collins, Hornsby - he also pretty much admits his bias against Hornsby because of his defensive prowess (or lack of it).

I rate them: Hornsby, Morgan, Collins - any middle infielder who leads the Majors in AVG/OBP/SLG 6 years consecutively doesn't need that much defense!

KCBOOMER · 07-30-2003, 03:53 PM

The only reason Morgan gets the love he does is because of Bill James. I like Bill's stuff but that dog won't hurt. The Rajah by a mile.

SmedIndy · 07-30-2003, 04:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KCBOOMER

The only reason Morgan gets the love he does is because of Bill James. I like Bill's stuff but that dog won't hurt. The Rajah by a mile.

But he's still behind Eddie Collins!

07-25-2003, 06:31 PM	#1
sweaver Netshrine Cleanup Hitter Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: The Mountain State Posts: 8,883	The best of the best: CBS Sportsline is doing a series of polls on the best ever at each position. 1B was last week, and we missed it, this week is 2B. http://www.sportsline.com/mlb/allstar/alltime-team

07-26-2003, 05:30 PM	#10
Ytown Tribe fan Guest Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Scrappers territory Posts: 2,515	Morgan and Collins Bill James, in his NHBA, says that he uses a simple formula for ranking the players, based on five criteria: career Win Shares, Top 3 seasons' WS, Top 5 seasons' WS, WS per 162 games, and a "time adjustment" for modern players that gives a player credit depending on when he played; generally, the earlier the era the lower the credit. Anyway, James says that his system is unbiased and direct -- it doesn't take into account whether he actually likes a player or not, he just goes by the numbers. At second base, Collins has 574 career WS and Morgan has 512. Collins top 3 seasons are 43, 43 and 40 WS; Morgan's are 44, 40, 39WS; Collins top 5 total is 193, Morgan's is 197; Collins has 32.90 WS/162G, Morgan has 31.31 WS/162G. Collins is ahead in three categories and Morgan is ahead in one. Yet, James has Morgan ranked number 1 and Collins number 2 at second base. Hornsby is third in career WS and top 5 total, but is way ahead in Top 3 and WS/162, due to the dropoff after his top three seasons; and is rated third. The explanation, which James doesn't directly state, is that Morgan gets a big credit for playing in the '60s and '70s and Collins loses points because he played teens and '20s, against presumably lamer competition. The discrepency is far worse in centerfield, where Cobb is WAY ahead of Mays in every single category (it's not even close), but James ranks Mays number 1 and Cobb number 2, presumably for the same reason. I have used the same argument when comparing Bonds' last two seasons with Ruth's peak years, so I can't really whine too much about James' placement of players with his method. But it can certainly be argued that he is wrong.

07-30-2003, 03:53 PM	#14
KCBOOMER NetShrine All-Century Team Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Home of the T-Bones Posts: 11,116	The only reason Morgan gets the love he does is because of Bill James. I like Bill's stuff but that dog won't hurt. The Rajah by a mile. __________________ KCBOOMER *Buck O'Neil: The Monarch of Baseball*

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07-25-2003, 06:33 PM	#2
sweaver Netshrine Cleanup Hitter Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: The Mountain State Posts: 8,883	Hmmm. Actually, they are doing it as a series of eliminations. Today is the 2B finals between Hornsby and Morgan, with Hornsby ahead.

07-25-2003, 07:00 PM	#3
Ytown Tribe fan Guest Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Scrappers territory Posts: 2,515	The interesting thing about middle infield positions is that defense doesn't count for much more there than anywhere else, when it comes to overall Win Shares, at least. The top three defensive secondbasemen of all time (in career Win Shares) are Maz (112 dWS), Fox (111 dWS) and Collins (108 dWS). No one else is above 100 dWS. Yet those numbers pale compared to the career Total Win Shares of the best players. The top three in total WS are Collins (574 WS), Morgan (512 WS) and Hornsby (502 WS). Lajoie is close with 496 WS and everyone else is below 400. That makes a pretty good case for Eddie Collins being the greatest secondbaseman ever, by any standard.

07-25-2003, 08:40 PM	#5
JamesI Netshrine Vacuum Cleaner Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Potsdam, N.Y. Posts: 3,723	Hornsby is absolutely crushing Morgan... I voted Morgan, but not going to help...

07-25-2003, 08:44 PM	#6
Ytown Tribe fan Guest Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Scrappers territory Posts: 2,515	Here's another quick look at the top four: Player...PA...OPS+ Collins...12032...141 Morgan...11329...132 Lajoie...10460...150 Hornsby...9475...175 I don't see how anyone could rate Morgan ahead of Collins, either offensively or defensively. People just see Morgan every damned day and he (and Bill James) help perpetuate the idea that he's the greatest there ever was at second base. Only Rajah and Lajoie rate ahead of Collins as hitters ( in fewer PAs), and only Fox and Maz rate ahead defensively.

07-25-2003, 08:54 PM	#7
sweaver Netshrine Cleanup Hitter Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: The Mountain State Posts: 8,883	It's the batting average. Most people still can't get past that.

07-26-2003, 01:47 PM	#9
Craig S. Guest Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Ohio Posts: 6,330	I think one reason Morgan rates ahead of Collins for so many people is because of his current exposure, and the fact that many fans remember him as part of the great Reds' teams. The same can't be said for Collins, simply because he retired 75 years ago. I think his association with the Black Sox - despite not being involved - also influences people on some level. He won 4 World Series, and his numbers both during the regular season and in the playoffs are incredible. Not sure why he's so overlooked.

07-26-2003, 06:26 PM	#11
sweaver Netshrine Cleanup Hitter Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: The Mountain State Posts: 8,883	When I rank them, I have Collins ahead of Morgan (though it pains me a bit) and Mays ahead of Cobb. Part of that is level of competition, part is hitters/pitchers era, and part is defense.

07-26-2003, 06:57 PM	#12
Ytown Tribe fan Guest Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Scrappers territory Posts: 2,515	I rank them Collins, Hornsby, Lajoie and Morgan at 2B; Cobb, Mays, Mantle, Speaker at CF.

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