Managerial Career + Playing Career = HOF

TGwynn19 · 07-23-2003, 07:08 PM

With Shawn's great series of threads about who should be in the HOF at each position has elicited a few responses like "he should be in the HOF when you consider his playing career and his managerial career"

I could not disagree more. If Joe Torre the player, or Joe Torre the manager can not make the hall independently then he should not be in. Frank Chance, Leo Durocher, Lou Boudreau......are these guys who piggy-backed their way into the HOF. IMO, to get into the HOF you should be able to get there on your specific playing or managing merit, not on a combination.

Jim Rice · 07-23-2003, 10:23 PM

I don't disagree entirely, but I think there should be a place in the Hall for overall contributions to the game. BUT, it should be distinct, not blended with the players (or managers) who got in on the strength of their performance as just a player (or manager).

My perfect example is Buck O'Neil. Excellent, but not Hall-worthy Negro Leagues first baseman. Excellent, championship-winning Negro Leagues manager. The first black coach in the majors. Long-time, distinguished scout who found Ernie Banks and Lou Brock for the Cubs. Long time Member of the Veteran's Committee to the Hall of Fame. Founder and ambassador for the Negro Leagues Museum. There just ought to be a category for a guy like that.

Wolf Hopper · 07-23-2003, 10:59 PM

Torre will get in as a MGR alone. How many MGRs have 4 rings? Not many.

Is the player + MGR combo deal any different than, say, looking at Eckersley's career?

As a SP, no go. As a RP, short career. Combined, maybe? But, at least it was all as a player in his case.........

sweaver · 07-23-2003, 11:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TGwynn19

With Shawn's great series of threads about who should be in the HOF at each position

Oh, g'wan

Torre makes it as a player and/or a manager, in my book. Chance as a manager, but not a player.

But like TG says, I think it's either/or, not a combination. Although I might make an exception for Gil Hodges, who wasn't quite there either way.

pwdennis · 07-24-2003, 08:41 AM

There are only a few managers who deserve to be in Cooperstown on the strength of their managing credentials alone

John J. McGraw
Casey Stengel
Billy Southworth
Miller Huggins
Joe McCarthy
Al Lopez
Earl Weaver

Durocher's playing credentials were minimal
Torre was borderline HOF as a player
Berra is a bonafide HOF catcher, maybe the greatest ever
Chance does not belong in Cooperstown
Hodges was borderline as a player, not even close as a manager

Boudreau does not belong in as a manager but as a shortstop he was a star player for a few years. I don't know if he did a quick fade as a player, or simply opted to focus on being a manager

WiredTiger · 07-24-2003, 09:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pwdennis

There are only a few managers who deserve to be in Cooperstown on the strength of their managing credentials alone

John J. McGraw
Casey Stengel
Billy Southworth
Miller Huggins
Joe McCarthy
Al Lopez
Earl Weaver

Durocher's playing credentials were minimal
Torre was borderline HOF as a player
Berra is a bonafide HOF catcher, maybe the greatest ever
Chance does not belong in Cooperstown
Hodges was borderline as a player, not even close as a manager

Boudreau does not belong in as a manager but as a shortstop he was a star player for a few years. I don't know if he did a quick fade as a player, or simply opted to focus on being a manager

To not include Sparky Anderson in this group is criminal.

I don't have a problem in someone being elected for a combination of achievments. Torre should probably be inducted. He was a near HOF level player and the managing just pushes him over the line.

SmedIndy · 07-24-2003, 09:34 AM

Chance does belong. So does Frank Selee. People forget, but those Cubs teams were out of this world impressive. They deserve accolades.

And for me with the crowbar - there needs to be a place in the HOF for someone like Chance.

JamesI · 07-24-2003, 10:56 AM

I disagree. Look at the person's entire career for baseball. If someone is good enough as a player and manager they should be honored. Torre's a bad example since his managerial career is enough to get them in, but Chance works for me. He should be a hall of famer, due to the strength of his playing and managing combined. Either alone, probably not.

huskerdru · 07-24-2003, 12:11 PM

It's either playing or managing, not both. The SP/RP example is not anaus, I think. As Wolfie mentioned, it's all still as a player.

Torre is in as a manager, and not even that close as a playah!! He was a very good player, occasionally great, but nowhere near consistently great. The 1B in the Hall who were his contemporaries (Killer and Stretch) were superior players. Cepeda, the other contemporary, wouldn't get in my HoF.

Sparky HAS to be in the list of managers getting in purely on managing credentials!!

huskerdru · 07-24-2003, 02:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by huskerdru

It's either playing or managing, not both. The SP/RP example is not anaus, I think. As Wolfie mentioned, it's all still as a player.

Torre is in as a manager, and not even that close as a playah!! He was a very good player, occasionally great, but nowhere near consistently great. The 1B in the Hall who were his contemporaries (Killer and Stretch) were superior players. Cepeda, the other contemporary, wouldn't get in my HoF.

Sparky HAS to be in the list of managers getting in purely on managing credentials!!

Of course, I take most of this back since Torre played the plurality of his games at catcher (minor brain cramp)!! As a catcher...well, I still don't put him in!!

Craig S. · 07-24-2003, 02:55 PM

Tough to decide one way or the other on this. I'm not sure if you should be measured on one, or on the "overall contributions" that JR alluded to in his post. I think in some cases you have to look at both.

And how many player/managers would this affect? Are there that many who wouldn't make it on the strength of playing or managing, but who might make it when you combine the two? Just curious.

pwdennis · 07-24-2003, 07:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WiredTiger

To not include Sparky Anderson in this group is criminal.

I don't have a problem in someone being elected for a combination of achievments. Torre should probably be inducted. He was a near HOF level player and the managing just pushes him over the line.

You're right - I forgot about the great Tiger skipper - mea culpa

Skip · 07-24-2003, 11:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pwdennis

You're right - I forgot about the great Tiger skipper - mea culpa

The great "???????" skipper? I am aghast!

Craig S. · 07-25-2003, 08:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pwdennis

You're right - I forgot about the great Tiger skipper - mea culpa

I think he was also a pretty good manager somewhere else, if I remember correctly. Something about a Machine and some World Series.

Skip · 07-25-2003, 09:30 AM

'Sallright Craig, just pw's way of <again> letting us know how overrated the BRM was. Sigh.

07-23-2003, 07:08 PM	#1
TGwynn19 Guest Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Naples, FL Posts: 2,087	Managerial Career + Playing Career = HOF With Shawn's great series of threads about who should be in the HOF at each position has elicited a few responses like "he should be in the HOF when you consider his playing career and his managerial career" I could not disagree more. If Joe Torre the player, or Joe Torre the manager can not make the hall independently then he should not be in. Frank Chance, Leo Durocher, Lou Boudreau......are these guys who piggy-backed their way into the HOF. IMO, to get into the HOF you should be able to get there on your specific playing or managing merit, not on a combination.

07-23-2003, 10:59 PM	#3
Wolf Hopper NetShrine Creator & Curator Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: NetShrine WHQ Posts: 6,191	Torre will get in as a MGR alone. How many MGRs have 4 rings? Not many. Is the player + MGR combo deal any different than, say, looking at Eckersley's career? As a SP, no go. As a RP, short career. Combined, maybe? But, at least it was all as a player in his case......... __________________ Steve, Forum Administrator POSTING TIP FOR THE DAY: When composing a post, think about what you would say if the intended recipient was an individual who was actually sitting just two feet in front of you, in person, rather than just some far away and anonymous audience who only can identify you as text on a PC screen - - and then write your post in that manner. It makes for remarkable and sincere discourse.

07-24-2003, 08:41 AM	#5
pwdennis NetShrine All-Century Team Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Winter Springs, FL Posts: 2,503	There are only a few managers who deserve to be in Cooperstown on the strength of their managing credentials alone John J. McGraw Casey Stengel Billy Southworth Miller Huggins Joe McCarthy Al Lopez Earl Weaver Durocher's playing credentials were minimal Torre was borderline HOF as a player Berra is a bonafide HOF catcher, maybe the greatest ever Chance does not belong in Cooperstown Hodges was borderline as a player, not even close as a manager Boudreau does not belong in as a manager but as a shortstop he was a star player for a few years. I don't know if he did a quick fade as a player, or simply opted to focus on being a manager __________________ "I would submit that if the world survives for a million years, perhaps its finest hour may be that in the last half of the 20th century, when the power to blow up the world rested in the hands of a few men in two very unsophisticated and suspicious countries, we didn't do it, and one American, Richard Nixon, moved the cold war away from permanent confrontation toward victory. How could any wrong that he did compare with that?" - John Sears

07-24-2003, 12:11 PM	#9
huskerdru Inducted Into The NetShrine Assembly of Fame Join Date: May 2003 Location: Motown (or just north of it) Posts: 540	It's either playing or managing, not both. The SP/RP example is not anaus, I think. As Wolfie mentioned, it's all still as a player. Torre is in as a manager, and not even that close as a playah!! He was a very good player, occasionally great, but nowhere near consistently great. The 1B in the Hall who were his contemporaries (Killer and Stretch) were superior players. Cepeda, the other contemporary, wouldn't get in my HoF. Sparky HAS to be in the list of managers getting in purely on managing credentials!! __________________ "Computers are stupid; they can only give you answers." - Pablo Picasso

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07-23-2003, 10:23 PM	#2
Jim Rice Inducted Into The NetShrine Assembly of Fame Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Shawnee, KS Posts: 783	I don't disagree entirely, but I think there should be a place in the Hall for overall contributions to the game. BUT, it should be distinct, not blended with the players (or managers) who got in on the strength of their performance as just a player (or manager). My perfect example is Buck O'Neil. Excellent, but not Hall-worthy Negro Leagues first baseman. Excellent, championship-winning Negro Leagues manager. The first black coach in the majors. Long-time, distinguished scout who found Ernie Banks and Lou Brock for the Cubs. Long time Member of the Veteran's Committee to the Hall of Fame. Founder and ambassador for the Negro Leagues Museum. There just ought to be a category for a guy like that.

07-24-2003, 09:34 AM	#7
SmedIndy NetShrine's Historian Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Zionsville, IN Posts: 10,569	Chance does belong. So does Frank Selee. People forget, but those Cubs teams were out of this world impressive. They deserve accolades. And for me with the crowbar - there needs to be a place in the HOF for someone like Chance.

07-24-2003, 10:56 AM	#8
JamesI Netshrine Vacuum Cleaner Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Potsdam, N.Y. Posts: 3,723	I disagree. Look at the person's entire career for baseball. If someone is good enough as a player and manager they should be honored. Torre's a bad example since his managerial career is enough to get them in, but Chance works for me. He should be a hall of famer, due to the strength of his playing and managing combined. Either alone, probably not.

07-24-2003, 02:55 PM	#11
Craig S. Guest Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Ohio Posts: 6,330	Tough to decide one way or the other on this. I'm not sure if you should be measured on one, or on the "overall contributions" that JR alluded to in his post. I think in some cases you have to look at both. And how many player/managers would this affect? Are there that many who wouldn't make it on the strength of playing or managing, but who might make it when you combine the two? Just curious.

07-25-2003, 09:30 AM	#15
Skip NetShrine Vagabond Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Louisville Posts: 7,866	'Sallright Craig, just pw's way of <again> letting us know how overrated the BRM was. Sigh.

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