Mike Hargrove's Place In Baseball History

Wolf Hopper · 08-03-2003, 11:17 AM

"Moneyball" states that OBP is more important that SLG% as a team with an OBP of 1.000 will score an infinite number of runs whereas a team with a SLG% of 1.000 may not score an infinite number of runs. Further, the book states that an extra point in OBP is 3 times as valuable as an extra point in SLG%. This all said, look at the folowing list:

Code:

CAREER - Highest Difference of OBP over League Average
Min 5000 PA
1900-2002
PLATE APPEARANCES displayed only--not a sorting criteria

OBA                             DIFF   PLAYER   LEAGUE     PA     
1    Ted Williams               .134     .482     .348     9789   
2    Babe Ruth                  .118     .474     .356    10616   
3    Ty Cobb                    .093     .433     .340    13073   
4    Barry Bonds                .093     .428     .335    10417   
5    Frank Thomas               .092     .432     .340     7505   
6    Rogers Hornsby             .091     .434     .342     9475   
7    Mickey Mantle              .087     .421     .333     9909   
8    Lou Gehrig                 .086     .447     .361     9660   
9    Edgar Martinez             .086     .424     .339     7520   
10   Joe Jackson                .086     .423     .337     5690   
11   Tris Speaker               .084     .428     .344    11989   
12   Roy Thomas                 .082     .408     .326     5873   
13   Eddie Collins              .082     .424     .342    12039   
14   Wade Boggs                 .082     .415     .333    10740   
15   Stan Musial                .079     .417     .338    12712   
16   Jeff Bagwell               .075     .414     .339     7927   
17   Jim Thome                  .073     .414     .342     5723   
18   Mel Ott                    .071     .414     .343    11337   
19   Jimmie Foxx                .070     .428     .358     9670   
20   Mike Hargrove              .069     .396     .327     6693   
21   Rickey Henderson           .068     .402     .333    13262   
22   Rod Carew                  .068     .393     .325    10550   
23   Manny Ramirez              .068     .411     .343     5233   
24   Eddie Stanky               .068     .410     .342     5435   
25   Arky Vaughan               .068     .406     .338     7721

Should we be paying more attention to the playing career stats of Mike Hargrove? His contributions as a player now seem more important than ever before, no?

SmedIndy · 08-03-2003, 12:05 PM

Hargrove had a darn good career - his skills weren't recognized for sure and he played on a lot of dog teams in his life.

He didn't age well either - "old players" skills, plus at 1B and DH you really do need some power, but he was a fine player.

sweaver · 08-03-2003, 12:41 PM

Mike Hargrove is about even in quality with Bob Watson, or Pete Runnels. Fine players, good for a long time, not among the top tier. He ranks #55 on my list of the greatest 1B ever. That's not bad.

Soapy · 08-03-2003, 01:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sweaver

Mike Hargrove is about even in quality with Bob Watson, or Pete Runnels. Fine players, good for a long time, not among the top tier. He ranks #55 on my list of the greatest 1B ever. That's not bad.

I admire Hargrove's patience at the plate, but my impatience with his Human Rain Delay act will cause me to never fully appreciate him as a player.

He makes Nomar look like he (Nomar) is in a hurry.

Kevin

pwdennis · 08-03-2003, 02:33 PM

Playing on better teams, Grover would have been a valuable commodity. On the teams he actually did play for, generally there was no one to drive him in. Since he had no speed and less power even playing with better teams he would never have been regarded as a star. You could never win a pennant if Grover was the best player on your team.

KCBOOMER · 08-04-2003, 02:47 PM

We all saw this guy play and if we were to put him in the HoF as a 1B the HoF would simply be an award for time served.

As a 1B Hargrove ranks 56th in OPS, 65th in RCAA, and 37th in OWP.

Wolf Hopper · 08-04-2003, 03:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KCBOOMER

As a 1B Hargrove ranks 56th in OPS, 65th in RCAA, and 37th in OWP.

Where would he rank in (OBA*3) plus SLG%?

Remember, "Moneyball" states that OBP is more important that SLG% as a team with an OBP of 1.000 will score an infinite number of runs whereas a team with a SLG% of 1.000 may not score an infinite number of runs. Further, the book states that an extra point in OBP is 3 times as valuable as an extra point in SLG%.

TimmyB · 08-04-2003, 03:18 PM

Quote:

18 Mel Ott .071 .414 .343 11337
19 Jimmie Foxx .070 .428 .358 9670
20 Mike Hargrove .069 .396 .327 6693
21 Rickey Henderson .068 .402 .333 13262
22 Rod Carew .068 .393 .325 10550
23 Manny Ramirez .068 .411 .343 5233
24 Eddie Stanky .068 .410 .342 5435
25 Arky Vaughan .068 .406 .338 7721

That's an interesting collection of names clustered there between .071 and .068. While I don't think Hargrove should start working on his HOF induction speech, I am surprised to see him (if ever so minisculey) ahead of Rickey, Carew and Manny.

As noted, he played from some lousy teams. Maybe if he had played somewhere on the east or west coast for a contender we'd all think differently... or, at least, a little differently.

Gosh, though... ain't a week goes by without learning something new around here.

KCBOOMER · 08-04-2003, 03:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wolf Hopper

Where would he rank in (OBA*3) plus SLG%?

Don't care. The RCAA and OWP kill him.

Wolf Hopper · 08-04-2003, 05:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KCBOOMER

Don't care. The RCAA and OWP kill him.

OK, where would he rank in terms of RCAA per PA?

Wolf Hopper · 08-04-2003, 05:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TimmyB

Gosh, though... ain't a week goes by without learning something new around here.

Me too! That's the juice for keeping it going!

Fuzzy Bear · 08-04-2003, 07:02 PM

I certainly can't advocate Hargrove for the HOF; he had a shorter career than Don Mattingly and Will Clark, both of whom have a case. His career was even shorter than Keith Hernandez, who I rate ahead of Hargrove.

If Hargrove had a longer career, and accomplished his .290 BA/.396 OBP over a career of at least 2,500 hits in length, playing regularly ever year for at least 15 years, we would be talking about something different. Such a career would put Hargrove on the periphery of the HOF. If Hargrove did what he did in a 2,800 hit career, well, he'd be a legit candidate then.

No one, however, though Hargrove to be a great player while he was active. In addition, only two of Hargrove's teams were ever seriously in pennant contention. He played for two Indian teams that were slightly over .500, but mostly, Hargrove played for losing teams. If Hargrove's record was one of a true "hidden immortal" his teams would have won more than they did.

rcartman28 · 08-05-2003, 09:24 AM

He was okay, but bascially all I would remember him for is making games last fifteen minutes longer than they otherwise would have......

KCBOOMER · 08-05-2003, 01:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wolf Hopper

OK, where would he rank in terms of RCAA per PA?

RCAA already includes PA in its calculations, but if it helps you out Hargrove averaged one RCAA per 38.8. This leaves him trailing such luminaries as Earl Torgeson (33.2), Jason Thompson (33.8), and Elbie Fletcher (35.5).

Wolf Hopper · 08-05-2003, 01:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KCBOOMER

RCAA already includes PA in its calculations.

How? Do you have the formula?

08-03-2003, 11:17 AM	#1
Wolf Hopper NetShrine Creator & Curator Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: NetShrine WHQ Posts: 6,191	Mike Hargrove's Place In Baseball History "Moneyball" states that OBP is more important that SLG% as a team with an OBP of 1.000 will score an infinite number of runs whereas a team with a SLG% of 1.000 may not score an infinite number of runs. Further, the book states that an extra point in OBP is 3 times as valuable as an extra point in SLG%. This all said, look at the folowing list: Code: CAREER - Highest Difference of OBP over League Average Min 5000 PA 1900-2002 PLATE APPEARANCES displayed only--not a sorting criteria OBA DIFF PLAYER LEAGUE PA 1 Ted Williams .134 .482 .348 9789 2 Babe Ruth .118 .474 .356 10616 3 Ty Cobb .093 .433 .340 13073 4 Barry Bonds .093 .428 .335 10417 5 Frank Thomas .092 .432 .340 7505 6 Rogers Hornsby .091 .434 .342 9475 7 Mickey Mantle .087 .421 .333 9909 8 Lou Gehrig .086 .447 .361 9660 9 Edgar Martinez .086 .424 .339 7520 10 Joe Jackson .086 .423 .337 5690 11 Tris Speaker .084 .428 .344 11989 12 Roy Thomas .082 .408 .326 5873 13 Eddie Collins .082 .424 .342 12039 14 Wade Boggs .082 .415 .333 10740 15 Stan Musial .079 .417 .338 12712 16 Jeff Bagwell .075 .414 .339 7927 17 Jim Thome .073 .414 .342 5723 18 Mel Ott .071 .414 .343 11337 19 Jimmie Foxx .070 .428 .358 9670 20 Mike Hargrove .069 .396 .327 6693 21 Rickey Henderson .068 .402 .333 13262 22 Rod Carew .068 .393 .325 10550 23 Manny Ramirez .068 .411 .343 5233 24 Eddie Stanky .068 .410 .342 5435 25 Arky Vaughan .068 .406 .338 7721 Should we be paying more attention to the playing career stats of Mike Hargrove? His contributions as a player now seem more important than ever before, no? __________________ Steve, Forum Administrator POSTING TIP FOR THE DAY: When composing a post, think about what you would say if the intended recipient was an individual who was actually sitting just two feet in front of you, in person, rather than just some far away and anonymous audience who only can identify you as text on a PC screen - - and then write your post in that manner. It makes for remarkable and sincere discourse.

08-04-2003, 02:47 PM	#6
KCBOOMER NetShrine All-Century Team Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Home of the T-Bones Posts: 11,116	We all saw this guy play and if we were to put him in the HoF as a 1B the HoF would simply be an award for time served. As a 1B Hargrove ranks 56th in OPS, 65th in RCAA, and 37th in OWP. __________________ KCBOOMER *Buck O'Neil: The Monarch of Baseball*

08-05-2003, 09:24 AM	#13
rcartman28 NetShrine All-Century Team Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Hudson, WI Posts: 1,408	He was okay, but bascially all I would remember him for is making games last fifteen minutes longer than they otherwise would have...... __________________ I would have looked out for the water main. But that's just me..... Brett Favre

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08-03-2003, 12:05 PM	#2
SmedIndy NetShrine's Historian Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Zionsville, IN Posts: 10,569	Hargrove had a darn good career - his skills weren't recognized for sure and he played on a lot of dog teams in his life. He didn't age well either - "old players" skills, plus at 1B and DH you really do need some power, but he was a fine player.

08-03-2003, 12:41 PM	#3
sweaver Netshrine Cleanup Hitter Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: The Mountain State Posts: 8,883	Mike Hargrove is about even in quality with Bob Watson, or Pete Runnels. Fine players, good for a long time, not among the top tier. He ranks #55 on my list of the greatest 1B ever. That's not bad.

08-03-2003, 02:33 PM	#5
pwdennis NetShrine All-Century Team Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Winter Springs, FL Posts: 2,503	Playing on better teams, Grover would have been a valuable commodity. On the teams he actually did play for, generally there was no one to drive him in. Since he had no speed and less power even playing with better teams he would never have been regarded as a star. You could never win a pennant if Grover was the best player on your team. __________________ "I would submit that if the world survives for a million years, perhaps its finest hour may be that in the last half of the 20th century, when the power to blow up the world rested in the hands of a few men in two very unsophisticated and suspicious countries, we didn't do it, and one American, Richard Nixon, moved the cold war away from permanent confrontation toward victory. How could any wrong that he did compare with that?" - John Sears

08-04-2003, 07:02 PM	#12
Fuzzy Bear NetShrine's Evangelist Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Living by faith, and not by sight! Posts: 2,194	I certainly can't advocate Hargrove for the HOF; he had a shorter career than Don Mattingly and Will Clark, both of whom have a case. His career was even shorter than Keith Hernandez, who I rate ahead of Hargrove. If Hargrove had a longer career, and accomplished his .290 BA/.396 OBP over a career of at least 2,500 hits in length, playing regularly ever year for at least 15 years, we would be talking about something different. Such a career would put Hargrove on the periphery of the HOF. If Hargrove did what he did in a 2,800 hit career, well, he'd be a legit candidate then. No one, however, though Hargrove to be a great player while he was active. In addition, only two of Hargrove's teams were ever seriously in pennant contention. He played for two Indian teams that were slightly over .500, but mostly, Hargrove played for losing teams. If Hargrove's record was one of a true "hidden immortal" his teams would have won more than they did.

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