Peak vs. Career Value Redux

Fuzzy Bear · 07-15-2003, 04:38 PM

There was once a thread here that examined the issue of career value vs. peak value. I have started some threads addressing this issue as well.

Without comment, my "Peak Value" All-Star Team.

1B---------Hal Trosky
2B---------Carlos Baerga
SS---------Ray Chapman
3B---------Al Rosen
LF---------George Foster
CF---------Fred Lynn
RF---------Tony Oliva
DH---------Jose Canseco
C----------Bill Freehan
SP---------Dwight Gooden
SP---------Denny McLain
SP---------Orel Hershiser
SP---------Ron Guidry
RP---------Dick Radatz
MGR-------Yogi Berra

What these guys have in common is the following:

1. At their peaks, all of these players were the best in their league at their position. (This is a bigger deal, of course, for pitchers than for hitters.)

2. At their peaks, many of these players were the best player in their league. (Baerga and Chapman are the only two on the list that you can definitely say were not; Trosky was probably never the best player in the A. L., either, but there were definitely times when he was the best at his position.

3. At their peaks, some of these players were the best player in baseball. (Oliva, Canseco, Guidry, even McLain could say that. Foster won two (2) MVP awards, Lynn was ROY and MVP in the same season.)

4. At the time of his retirement, Al Rosen was the greatest 3B of all time in terms of peak value, although Eddie Mathews was beginning to challenge that. Rosen's 1953 season may still be the greatest season ever by a third baseman in history.

Since I am posting this, one would ask if I advocate any of these guys for the HOF. I will continue to advocate Rosen, Chapman, Oliva and Guidry. I might argue Canseco, except he has become such a jerk he clouds my better judgement, so I'll pass on him.

All these guys I've listed touched greatness for more than one fluke season. These guys were GREAT PLAYERS at their peak, were they not? (We forget how Baerga was so great for a short time, about three (3) years, before his talent just waned.

Now, let's look at the "Career Value" All-Star Team:

1B------------Mickey Vernon
2B------------Buddy Myer
SS------------Omar Vizquel
3B------------Gary Gaetti
LF------------Al Oliver
CF------------Vada Pinson
RF------------Dwight Evans
DH------------Edgar Martinez
SP------------Jack Morris
SP------------Tommy John
SP------------Jim Kaat
SP------------Bert Blyleven
RP------------Elroy Face
MGR----------Gene Mauch

Which group of players would YOU rather have?

Which ones would YOU nominate for the HOF?

Which group would do better over the course of a 162 game season?

Which group would win a seven (7) game series?

gyb13 · 07-15-2003, 06:04 PM

rather have for what? their peak season(s) or their career?

aren't you answering your own questions - the Peak team would do better for a season or a series, whereas the Career team would do better over a longer time period?

Jim Rice · 07-16-2003, 08:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fuzzy Bear

...Foster won two (2) MVP awards...

Nope, just one, 1977. His teammate, Joe Morgan, beat him handily in 1976. Except for those two years, Foster never got a first place vote, let alone first place finish.

To answer one of your questions, there's very few of these guys I'd nominate for the HOF. I think Dwight Evans belongs, and I do the Bert Blyleven shuffle every year, sometimes voting for him, but usually not. Otherwise, I wouldn't vote for any of these guys. To me, if the peak isn't extraordinarily high, a la Koufax (5-7 years of brilliance/dominance), I wouldn't vote for a guy unless he had some semblence of career value too. The same is true in reverse - with few exceptions, a guy with a solid career but no real peak (at least 3-5 years of being among the best five players/pitchers in their league) doesn't get my vote either.

I don't see any of the guys on your peak team matching that level of brilliance during their peak. Rosen is a possible exception, but he's barely even qualified for the HOF - he only played seven years plus tiny (35 combined games) portions of three others. And I don't think anyone on your career value team had any type of exceptional peak. I support Evans' for the HOF because I think he's got a decent combination of the two - a solid career value and a respectable peak from 1981 through 1987. Blyleven is a bit tougher for me because during his best peak, roughly 1971 through 1978, he was just 126-114, a .525 winning percentage, not much better than his teams' combined winning percentage of .504 when he wasn't pitching. Most years, that's just not good enough for me, but I do sway back and forth on him because his peripherals were so strong that he might well simply be the victim of bad luck. Still, I want more proof of that.

Ytown Tribe fan · 07-16-2003, 10:29 AM

The case for Blyleven is easy, and has been done to death on this forum. It's a farce that he isn't in. Edgar might make it some day.

Jack Morris is an interesting case. IMO, he was very much hurt by the "strike-out" of '94. He had a good season for a fine Tribe team that was one of the big stories of the shortened season. I have to believe that had they gone on to the post-season (it would've been close) and had Jack pitched well in the playoffs, that would've made up for '92 and reminded people of how good he COULD be in the big games.

sweaver · 07-16-2003, 02:27 PM

Fuzzy, I'm not sure what your "career value" team is about. Is it consistency? Then Vernon doesn't belong. Best career without an "MVP" season? I'll have to know the definition before I can respond.

Here's a "peak value" all-star team, based on best 4 consecutive seasons:

C Gary Carter
1B Jimmie Foxx
2B Jackie Robinson
SS Hughie Jennings
3B Ron Santo
LF Albert Belle
CF Willie Mays
RF Babe Ruth
DH Frank Thomas
P Walter Johnson
P Pud Galvin
P Amos Rusie
P Jim Whitney
RP Lefty Grove

Grove is cheating a bit, but he did pitch in relief quite a bit during those years.

gyb13 · 07-16-2003, 02:44 PM

sweav, i think he meant for players not in the HoF

sweaver · 07-16-2003, 03:04 PM

Hey, you have to tell me these things. I'll also exclude active players, although Fuzzy has Baerga. That means no Pedro, A-Rod, and others. I'm using Sandberg, though. (If not Sandberg, Bobby Grich)

Non-HOF version, peak value:

C Joe Torre
1B Will Clark
2B Ryne Sandberg
SS Alan Trammell
3B Ron Santo
LF Albert Belle
CF Jimmy Wynn
RF Johnny Callison
DH Harold Baines
P Jim Whitney
P Jim McCormick
P Bert Blyleven
P Frank Tanana
RP Dennis Eckersley

sweaver · 07-16-2003, 03:13 PM

Here's a go at a team of top career-value non-Hall of Famers, again excluding the actives (so no Bonds, Rickey, Clemens etc.)

C Ted Simmons
1B Keith Hernandez
2B Lou Whitaker
SS Bill Dahlen
3B Darrell Evans
LF Pete Rose
CF Brett Butler
RF Dwight Evans
DH Paul Molitor
P Bert Blyleven
P Frank Tanana
P Tommy John
P Luis Tiant
RP Dennis Eckersley

Ytown Tribe fan · 07-16-2003, 05:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sweaver

Fuzzy, I'm not sure what your "career value" team is about. Is it consistency? Then Vernon doesn't belong. Best career without an "MVP" season? I'll have to know the definition before I can respond.

I'm glad you asked that first, so I wouldn't look silly.

Yes -- when I first read the original post, my thought was, "I don't agree with ANY of these selections, on EITHER team."I searched the original post for a clue, but Fuzzy doesn't come right out and say "best teams of players who aren't in the HoF". So, rather than ask, I assumed that's what the lists were.

Even then, when I saw Berra as manager, I had my doubts, since he IS a HoF'er but wasn't listed as catcher (but then, neither was Bench.)

Anyway, thanks for asking.

sweaver · 07-16-2003, 07:00 PM

It makes a lot of difference. That's why I decided to go ahead and make up a set of my own, especially since I had the lists I needed close at hand at the time.

07-15-2003, 04:38 PM	#1
Fuzzy Bear NetShrine's Evangelist Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Living by faith, and not by sight! Posts: 2,194	Peak vs. Career Value Redux There was once a thread here that examined the issue of career value vs. peak value. I have started some threads addressing this issue as well. Without comment, my "Peak Value" All-Star Team. 1B---------Hal Trosky 2B---------Carlos Baerga SS---------Ray Chapman 3B---------Al Rosen LF---------George Foster CF---------Fred Lynn RF---------Tony Oliva DH---------Jose Canseco C----------Bill Freehan SP---------Dwight Gooden SP---------Denny McLain SP---------Orel Hershiser SP---------Ron Guidry RP---------Dick Radatz MGR-------Yogi Berra What these guys have in common is the following: 1. At their peaks, all of these players were the best in their league at their position. (This is a bigger deal, of course, for pitchers than for hitters.) 2. At their peaks, many of these players were the best player in their league. (Baerga and Chapman are the only two on the list that you can definitely say were not; Trosky was probably never the best player in the A. L., either, but there were definitely times when he was the best at his position. 3. At their peaks, some of these players were the best player in baseball. (Oliva, Canseco, Guidry, even McLain could say that. Foster won two (2) MVP awards, Lynn was ROY and MVP in the same season.) 4. At the time of his retirement, Al Rosen was the greatest 3B of all time in terms of peak value, although Eddie Mathews was beginning to challenge that. Rosen's 1953 season may still be the greatest season ever by a third baseman in history. Since I am posting this, one would ask if I advocate any of these guys for the HOF. I will continue to advocate Rosen, Chapman, Oliva and Guidry. I might argue Canseco, except he has become such a jerk he clouds my better judgement, so I'll pass on him. All these guys I've listed touched greatness for more than one fluke season. These guys were GREAT PLAYERS at their peak, were they not? (We forget how Baerga was so great for a short time, about three (3) years, before his talent just waned. Now, let's look at the "Career Value" All-Star Team: 1B------------Mickey Vernon 2B------------Buddy Myer SS------------Omar Vizquel 3B------------Gary Gaetti LF------------Al Oliver CF------------Vada Pinson RF------------Dwight Evans DH------------Edgar Martinez SP------------Jack Morris SP------------Tommy John SP------------Jim Kaat SP------------Bert Blyleven RP------------Elroy Face MGR----------Gene Mauch Which group of players would YOU rather have? Which ones would YOU nominate for the HOF? Which group would do better over the course of a 162 game season? Which group would win a seven (7) game series?

07-15-2003, 06:04 PM	#2
gyb13 NS Omnipresent Brasilian Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Crazy George's playground Posts: 10,903	rather have for what? their peak season(s) or their career? aren't you answering your own questions - the Peak team would do better for a season or a series, whereas the Career team would do better over a longer time period? __________________ Gustavo NDF Moderator Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. - Benjamin Franklin

07-16-2003, 02:44 PM	#6
gyb13 NS Omnipresent Brasilian Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Crazy George's playground Posts: 10,903	sweav, i think he meant for players not in the HoF __________________ Gustavo NDF Moderator Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. - Benjamin Franklin

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07-16-2003, 10:29 AM	#4
Ytown Tribe fan Guest Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Scrappers territory Posts: 2,515	The case for Blyleven is easy, and has been done to death on this forum. It's a farce that he isn't in. Edgar might make it some day. Jack Morris is an interesting case. IMO, he was very much hurt by the "strike-out" of '94. He had a good season for a fine Tribe team that was one of the big stories of the shortened season. I have to believe that had they gone on to the post-season (it would've been close) and had Jack pitched well in the playoffs, that would've made up for '92 and reminded people of how good he COULD be in the big games.

07-16-2003, 02:27 PM	#5
sweaver Netshrine Cleanup Hitter Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: The Mountain State Posts: 8,883	Fuzzy, I'm not sure what your "career value" team is about. Is it consistency? Then Vernon doesn't belong. Best career without an "MVP" season? I'll have to know the definition before I can respond. Here's a "peak value" all-star team, based on best 4 consecutive seasons: C Gary Carter 1B Jimmie Foxx 2B Jackie Robinson SS Hughie Jennings 3B Ron Santo LF Albert Belle CF Willie Mays RF Babe Ruth DH Frank Thomas P Walter Johnson P Pud Galvin P Amos Rusie P Jim Whitney RP Lefty Grove Grove is cheating a bit, but he did pitch in relief quite a bit during those years.

07-16-2003, 03:04 PM	#7
sweaver Netshrine Cleanup Hitter Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: The Mountain State Posts: 8,883	Hey, you have to tell me these things. I'll also exclude active players, although Fuzzy has Baerga. That means no Pedro, A-Rod, and others. I'm using Sandberg, though. (If not Sandberg, Bobby Grich) Non-HOF version, peak value: C Joe Torre 1B Will Clark 2B Ryne Sandberg SS Alan Trammell 3B Ron Santo LF Albert Belle CF Jimmy Wynn RF Johnny Callison DH Harold Baines P Jim Whitney P Jim McCormick P Bert Blyleven P Frank Tanana RP Dennis Eckersley

07-16-2003, 03:13 PM	#8
sweaver Netshrine Cleanup Hitter Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: The Mountain State Posts: 8,883	Here's a go at a team of top career-value non-Hall of Famers, again excluding the actives (so no Bonds, Rickey, Clemens etc.) C Ted Simmons 1B Keith Hernandez 2B Lou Whitaker SS Bill Dahlen 3B Darrell Evans LF Pete Rose CF Brett Butler RF Dwight Evans DH Paul Molitor P Bert Blyleven P Frank Tanana P Tommy John P Luis Tiant RP Dennis Eckersley

07-16-2003, 07:00 PM	#10
sweaver Netshrine Cleanup Hitter Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: The Mountain State Posts: 8,883	It makes a lot of difference. That's why I decided to go ahead and make up a set of my own, especially since I had the lists I needed close at hand at the time.

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