The influence of Ruth

[timconnelly]

If Babe Ruth had hit more like Randy Johnson, how do you think baseball would have evolved differently?

Do you think hitting would have surged through the 20's anyway?

Would somebody else have stepped up to have been the king of the home run or do you envision an entirely different scenerio without the Babe?

Do you think the Black Sox scandal would have hurt the game a lot more than it did?

Would Babe have made it into the Hall of Fame as a pitcher or like so many other young pitchers who throw a lot of innings. was his career already in decline.

Did Ruth and all the myths that surrounded him create a popularity for the sport that had a lasting impact or is even that a myth?

Do you think Bonds and McGwire and Sosa have put the Babe to rest or do you think his legend can withstand the pounding of his records?

I have some thoughts myself on all of this but I'll wait and see if this thread interests anybody else before I comment.

[Skipper Steve]

OWP LEADERS 1919-33, 8000+PA
1 Babe Ruth .862
2 Frankie Frisch .578
3 Sam Rice .572
4 Joe Sewell .549
5 Charlie Grimm .480

Without Ruth, I can't imagine what would have happened.

That's why his NetShrine entry reads that way it does.

[timconnelly]

One of the more difficult things to do with Ruth’s pitching is to find the right context for how good he was as a pitcher against how good he would have been had he remained a pitcher. For pitchers who pitched as many innings as he did for a career, Ruth is in the top 15 all time in both ERA and winning percentage. That plus his fantastic World Series record gives the impression of greatness. But I don’t think Ruth was a great pitcher.

He pitched for a winning team in a low scoring era. That had to help both his percentage and his ERA. But his winning percentage was consistently above his team’s and his ERA was the lowest in the league in 1916. There can be no doubt that Ruth was an excellent pitcher but I think it also needs to be said that both Walter Johnson and Grover Cleveland Alexander were far superior pitchers.

I tracked the pitchers once who started when Babe did. There was an incredible fallout of pitchers who failed to maintain their effectiveness after the hitting boom began in the 20’s. I don’t have that data available and my memory is pretty sketchy, but it was astonishing how one pitcher after another fell by the wayside. There is no proof that Ruth would have stopped being effective but I think there is good evidence that he would have. Both strikeout to walk ratio and strikeouts per 9 innings are indicative of how much stuff a pitcher has. In 1916 Ruth was 3rd in the AL in strikeouts averaging 4.7 per 9 innings. By 1918, while completing 53 of his last 57 starts, his strikeouts were down to 2.2 per 9 innings. He was still effective, winning 13 out of 20 decisions, but I think that indicates a taxing on his arm that would have rendered him ineffective in just a few years.

Do I think Ruth would have made it to the Hall of Fame as a pitcher? He was already halfway home with a career record very similar to that of Dwight Gooden at the same age. Gooden was more effective during the regular season but Ruth had had incredible post-season success (in case anyone doesn’t know this, Ruth was 3-0 with a 14 inning 2-1 complete game victory, a 1-0 complete game shutout, and 29 2/3 of scoreless pitching, a record that would hold up for 43 years.) I don’t think Babe would have done any better than Doc had he not had the greatest bat in baseball history.

[Skipper Steve]

I don't think Ruth would have made the Hall as a SP. Too many off days. Too much time to get into trouble.

Wasn't Ruth credited with inventing the modern bat which has the flare (bubble?) at the end? I'd heard he'd ordered those bats custom made and that might've been a great influence on hitting, though not by him personally.

Had Ruth hit like Randy Johnson and scored twice in game 6? Basically, Lou Gehrig was also on the 1927 Murderer's Row and was considered a prime reason Babe got so many hits, since he protected Babe. Had they walked Babe, how could they also pitch around Lou and crowd the bases?

[timconnelly]

Well I'm sure Lou prevented a lot of walks but regardless, Babe walked 138 times in 1927. Of gourse, Gehrig walked 109 times. Of course, since they drove in 339 runs between them, neither one of them were walked nearly enough.

I was figuring that if Bonds had the kind of protection that would have kept his walk total at 138 that would have been another 39 at bats and another 5 or 6 home runs!

In that case, the Giants would need another slugger to protect Bonds the way Jermaine Dye did for Jason Giambi. Someone like Juan Gone but keeping both wouldn't look too good for the owners due to the overall cost.

All that is moot if he doesn't drop his asking price, unless there's a Texas GM born every minute. If he's smart, not just greedy, he'll go to a team with quality pitching, IF & OF, which I see as a situation he could step into and provide immediate relief. If the pitching is lacking on his eventual team, no one hustles and the fielding isn't so hot, he'd be doing it all by himself. He shouldn't have to do it all by himself and his salary should be somewhat smaller than that of entire small market _teams_.

[sweaver]

Babe changed the game. The changes would have come eventually, but much slower. It took the rest of the league a long time to catch up to the new style. So, the statement about Babe's pitching stats suffering if he pitched into the 1920's is somewhat moot, since the hitting boom would not have happened the same way without Ruth as a hitting force. Would Lou Gehrig and Jimmie Foxx have led a change in the game the same way? I doubt it. The confluence of the Babe, the Black Sox and Judge Landis was an historic event of epic proportions that changed the game forever.