The Best Player You've Never Heard Of (Non-Smed Division)

[sweaver]

Going through some records, I got to thinking about who would be the greatest player in baseball history that a devoted fan (such as the type around here) would not know about. It would likely be a 19th century player (unless you are SmedIndy) with a lot of talent but not much flash, who somehow didn't stay in the public mind like a Cap Anson.

My pick: Paul Hines.

Who?

Paul Hines was a CF, born in 1852 in Washington D.C., broke in with the Washington team in the National Association in 1872. He then went to Chicago, and played most of his career in Providence. He compiled a .302 lifetime batting average, had some power and some speed, and was a terrific defensive center fielder. He had a career OPS+ of 131, won the NL Triple Crown in 1878. He was 2-for-8 in Providence's 3-game sweep of the 1884 "World Series" over the Metropolitans.

And you probably had never heard of him. How often does that happen with guys that good?

[SmedIndy]

You'd be surprised - things fall through the cracks. No one really remembers how good Johnny Callison was, because of the era he played in, where he played, and what position.

One name to throw out there is Bill Lange. He retired so he could get married (his future father in law disdained baseball as a profession).

[rcartman28]

If the Phillies don't totally collapse at the of the 1964 season, Callison probably wins the MVP award instead of finishing second to Ken Boyer, which may have made him a little more memorable.

[Wolf Hopper]

Denny Lyons

[LeGrandOrange]

NetShrine was the first place I'd ever heard of Mike Griffin. Apparently he was one of the great CF's of his day and was apparently good enough to be listed among the all-time greats, yet I had never had a clue who the heck he was.

Bob Elliott is also probably a good candidate for most people in this...myself included because I know nothing about him due to the fact Baseball Library is too lame to make an entry for him...but I digress.

[pathogan]

I saw Johnny callison,John Briggs and Dick allen [or maybe Tony Taylor} in a viscious three man collision,where two of them were carried off...I remeber Callison having a terrific throwing arm,also...

[Jim Rice]

Originally posted by LeGrandOrange
Bob Elliott is also probably a good candidate for most people in this...myself included because I know nothing about him due to the fact Baseball Library is too lame to make an entry for him...

Ditto on Bob "Mr. Team" Elliott. I'll add Bill Joyce. Sixth-highest OBP of all time (3000 PAs or more) and I've never heard of the guy.

Most of us here know him pretty well, but I think the average fan would wonder who the hell Mike Tiernan was too.

[Ytown Tribe fan]

Bill Joyce or Jake Stenzel, who had similar numbers and played for one more season, finishing with 1000+ hits.

Joyce was the first name that came to my mind. He's always on the RC/RCAA/RCAP lists.

I also thought of Jake Daubert.

[dave7636]

It has to be a Negro League player. I bet everyone here has heard of at least half of the players mentioned already, but take a look at this list I found on pitchblack.com. This is a Pittsburgh Courier newspaper poll in 1952 asking about the greatest Negro League players ever. Unless a person studies the Negro Leagues, there is no way they'll ever here about most of the non-Hall of Famers.


First team: (1B) Buck Leonard, (2B) Jackie Robinson, (SS) Pop Lloyd, (3B) Oliver Marcelle, (OF) Monte Irvin, (OF) Oscar Charleston, (OF) Cristobel Torriente, (C) Josh Gibson, (C) Biz Mackey, (P) Joe Williams, (P) Satchel Paige, (P) Bullet Rogan, (P) John Dondaldson, (P) Bill Foster, (Utility) Martin Dihigo, (Utility) Sam Bankhead, (Mgr) Rube Foster, (Coach) Dizzy Dismukes, (Coach) Danny McClellan.

Second Team: (1B) Ben Taylor, (2B) Bingo DeMoss, (SS) Willie Wells, (3B) Judy Johnson, (OF) Pete Hill, (OF) Cool Papa Bell, (OF) Chino Smith, (C) Roy Campanella, (C) Bruce Petway, (P) Dave Brown, (P) Dick Redding, (P) Nip Winters, (P) Dizzy Dismukes, (P) Don Newcombe, (Utility) John Beckwith, (Utility) Newt Allen, (Mgr) Cum Posey, (Coach) C.I. Taylor, (Coach) Dave Malarcher.


Third Team: (1B) Jud Wilson, (2B) Bill Monroe, (SS) Dick Lundy, (3B) Jud Wilson, (OF) Rap Dixon, (OF) Larry Doby, (OF) Fats Jenkins, (C) Double Duty Radcliffe, (C) Louis Santop, (P) Slim Jones, (P) Bill Holland, (P) Phil Cockrell, (P) Webster McDonald, (P) Bill Byrd, (Utility) Emmett Bowman, (Utility) Dick Wallace, (Mgr) Ed Bolden.


Fourth Team: (1B) Ed Douglas, (2B) George Scales, (SS) Doby Moore, (3B) Ray Dandridge, (OF) Jimmy Lyons, (OF) Mule Suttles, (OF) Spotswood Poles, (C) Frank Duncan, (C) Bill Perkins, (P) Double Duty Radcliffe, (P) Frank Wickware, (P) Danny McClellan, (P) Leon Day, (P) Bill Jackman, (Utility) Rev Cannady, (Utility) Jose Mendez, (Mgr) Vic Harris.

Fifth Team: (1B) George Carr, (2B) Bunny Downs, (SS) Pelayo Chacon, (3B) Dave Malarcher, (OF) Frank Duncan, (OF) Turkey Stearnes, (OF) Jelly Gardner, (C) Doc Wiley, (C) Speck Webster, (P) Stringbean Williams, (P) Ray Brown, (P) Rats Henderson, (P) Luis Tiant, (P) Leroy Matlock.

[LeGrandOrange]

And it shows some strength when a favorite of mine, Piper Davis, doesn't even make any of the teams. (BTW, there is a reason I like Piper Davis, and I'm not telling it to you! )

Actually, more notably missing is Alex Oms...I've been led to believe he was real good. Bill James gives him 6 figures in his fantasy game, he must be.

[Jim Rice]

Whither Hilton Smith and Buck O'Neill?

FYI...Double Duty Radcliffe, age 100, and Buck O'Neill, age 91, formed the battery for the ceremonial first pitch this past Sunday at Kauffman Stadium as the Royals and Cardinals honored the Negro Leagues.

No replies needed...I think I'm already off topic far enough.

[dave7636]

This is the others receiving votes, and a note from the site author:

Others receiving votes: (1B) Leroy Grant, Mule Suttles; (2B) Nate Harris, Sammy T. Hughes, Frank Warfield, Ray Dandridge, George Wright, Harry Williams; (SS) Gerard Williams, Bobby Williams, Morton Clark; (3B) Bill Francis, Jim Taylor; (OF) Minnie Minoso, Jap Payne, Blaine Hall, Ted Strong, Ted Page, Vic Harris; (P) Jose Mendez, Laymon Yokely.


*Some players that weren't listed that I believe should have been: (1B) Buck O'Neil, Red Moore, Steel Arm Davis, George Giles; (2B) Bonnie Serrell; (SS) Jake Stephens; (3B) Alec Radcliffe, Bobby Robinson; (OF) Jumbo Kimbro, Willard Brown, Bill Wright, Neil Robinson, Ducky Davenport; (C) Quincy Trouppe, Larry Brown, Buck Ewing, Pops Coleman; (P) Chet Brewer, Hilton Smith, Barney Brown, Ted Trent, Max Manning, Sug Cornelius, Harry Salmon, Barney Morris; (Mgr) Buck O'Neil, Double Duty Radcliffe, Quincy Trouppe.

Max Manning passed away last week.

[SmedIndy]

You'd be surprised how many good players fell into the shadows. When the latest HBA came out from James - I remember someone on another board deriding the choice of Kid Nichols as highly rated, just because they never heard of him.

[nyy26wc]

Originally posted by SmedIndy
You'd be surprised how many good players fell into the shadows. When the latest HBA came out from James - I remember someone on another board deriding the choice of Kid Nichols as highly rated, just because they never heard of him.

And in 2103, someone will be online ridiculing the selection of Roger Clemens being highly rated, because he never heard of him.