Who Is The Most Deserving Player That Is NOT In The Hall of Fame?

[Fuzzy Bear]

Gary Carter, C. Joe Torre, 1B. Lou Whitaker, 2b. Alan Trammell, SS. Ron Santo, 3B. Andre Dawson,
Dale Murphy, and Tony Oliva, OF. Carl Mays, Bert Blyleven, Tommy John, and Jim Kaat, SP. These guys are the best at their position that are eligible for the Hall of Fame, but not in.

[gyb13]

Originally posted by Fuzzy Bear
Gary Carter, C. Joe Torre, 1B. Lou Whitaker, 2b. Alan Trammell, SS. Ron Santo, 3B. Andre Dawson,
Dale Murphy, and Tony Oliva, OF. Carl Mays, Bert Blyleven, Tommy John, and Jim Kaat, SP. These guys are the best at their position that are eligible for the Hall of Fame, but not in.

Welcome fuzzy bear. What about your RP's?

[Xanadu Dragon]

F-Bear, welcome!

Fear not on Torre, once he retires, he should get in as a MGR.

[Fuzzy Bear]

I grew up in 1960s when the relievers were generally considered not good enough to start, so I have trouble thinking of them as HOF quality. My reliever would be Goose Gossage. Eckersley would take his place once he's eligible.

Here's a couple names to ponder:
Sadaharu Oh, Turkey Stearnes, Cecil Travis.


I think Ron Guidry is the best pitcher not in the Hall; at his best, he was a lot better than Blyleven, John, Kaat.

[Xanadu Dragon]

Sadaharu Oh?

I dunno? Then why not Hector Espino too?

Ditto on Gator - - I wish the Big Stein would retire 49 already too.

For more on Guidry, see:
http://www.netshrine.com/vbulletin2/...=&threadid=779

[LeGrandOrange]

You know, I wanted to make a thread about Oh, but didn't have the words.
Does anyone have a GOOD link to Japanese baseball history (and one that's in English?), because I don't know much about Japanese baseball, and therefore cannot make a good opinion about Sadaharu's case. The level of play might be lower in Japan, but if Ichiro can leave Japan to be a MVP candidate in the States (whether he's deservant of it or not isn't relevant), they must be doing SOMETHING right.
Japanese Leagues are to the new millennium what the Negro Leagues were in the late 40's and 50's, something of a "feeder league" to Major League Baseball. I have no idea if it's a good thing, but I'll figure it out in time.
BTW, Turkey is already in. He got in 3 years ago.

[gyb13]

Originally posted by LeGrandOrange
You know, I wanted to make a thread about Oh, but didn't have the words.
Does anyone have a GOOD link to Japanese baseball history (and one that's in English?), because I don't know much about Japanese baseball, and therefore cannot make a good opinion about Sadaharu's case. The level of play might be lower in Japan, but if Ichiro can leave Japan to be a MVP candidate in the States (whether he's deservant of it or not isn't relevant), they must be doing SOMETHING right.
Japanese Leagues are to the new millennium what the Negro Leagues were in the late 40's and 50's, something of a "feeder league" to Major League Baseball. I have no idea if it's a good thing, but I'll figure it out in time.
BTW, Turkey is already in. He got in 3 years ago.

I dunno about the comparison to the Negro Leagues, because Nippon baseball is much more structured than they were. Here's a good link on stats et al: www.inter.co.jp/Baseball

Did not realize Stearnes was in. Is Mule Suttles in?

The comparison of Japanese Leagues to the Negro Leagues is interesting, but I think the two are very different. I am sure that the Japanese leagues of the past 30 years are much better than the Negro Leagues in terms of depth of talent, although not as many superstars. Most observers of the Negro Leagues have said that the best Negro League teams did not have much depth; usually they had only 15-18 players on a team, which is why so many of them were multiposition players, with most pitchers also playing the field. An All-Star black team from 1940, of course, would probably be comparable to an All-Star black team today, but the individual teams, compared to, say, the Yankees, might have 2-3 superstars that compared favorably with DiMaggio and Keller and Ruffing, but the Yankees would beat them because they had eight good players and six good pitchers.

I'm not sure if Sad Oh deserves recognition in American baseball or not, but it's an interesting discussion. I would guess that he'd have been comparable to Mel Ott or Jimmy Wynn, a small guy who walked 140 times a year and could hit homers.

I am in favor of a special wing in the Hall for all players who lost their chance at the Hall because of wartime service.

[LeGrandOrange]

Ott's a great comparison, he used the "foot in the bucket" stance as well. Although it's coincedental.
I think that Sadaharu would definitely NOT hit 868 HR's in the States, but he'd be a valuable player. If the strike zone is universal, then you gotta have him on a team. I did not realize Sadaharu was a walk machine...2,390 frickin' walks! DAMN! Talk about a batting eye.
Sadaharu Oh would've been a decent all-star 1B had he have played here during the 1960's or 1970's, and I think we'd talk about him being in Cooperstown. He wouldn't be the home run king, the parks were bigger here (Katsua Nomura, the catcher(!) who's the all time leader in Japanese League games, is right behind Oh...because his park with 280 down the lines and 350 to center), but he might have 400. If he's a decent fielder, a major league version of Sadaharu might resemble a better version of John Olerud. Not bad. (And maybe that's an understatement)
Then again, he never did play, and he'll only play in the US on Bill James Classic Baseball.
At any rate, that's my opinion.
BTW, Suttles isn't in, because the name didn't immediately resonate in my mind.
The wartime thing would be interesting. The only thing I know about that is that your first member of THAT would be Joe Gordon, no questions asked.
Still, your mileage may vary.

Ott, too, had a right-field line of about 280 feet...so the comparison is even stronger.

On Gordon...I believe he should be in anyway, it is really mind-boggling that Doerr is in, Gordon is out...they were exact contemporaries, nearly identical players, except that Gordon was probably much better, because he hit in Yankee/Cleveland, while Doerr hit in Fenway, and Gordon's teams won much more often.

The reason I mentioned Travis is because his career was basically destroyed by the war. He led the AL in hits in 1941, when two guys named DiMaggio and Williams had pretty famous years. He was basically Nomar, or Jeter, in the AL at that time. He was 27, and had about 1,100 hits or more, he would have been an excellent 3,000-hit candidate.

[LeGrandOrange]

I did know that that was the reason Cecil Travis was mentioned. Gordon was the guy that I generally associated with wartime costing a Cooperstown nod. Gordon probably should be in, though. He's not the best, second best, or even third best not in, Lou Whitaker, Bobby Grich, and Willie Randolph are in those spots in some order. That's simply my opinion, and is somewhat career based. But Gordon's a guy who was exceptional at the position, the best for his time, and prolonged levels of being on top quantify a potential induction.
Hell, you could even consider the guy he was traded for for Cooperstown, Allie Reynolds. Not a bad player in his own right...
In addition to Cecil, I feel that one of his teammates had wartime service cost him from being perhaps a fringe hall of famer or merely an under-appreciated at NetShrine, and that's Buddy Lewis. When I was doing some mindless stat tabulation, I learned who Buddy Lewis was for the first time, and it's amazing that for a guy I'd never heard of...he was pretty darn good. This is a reason he got a NetShrine nomination, for sure. (And I would've suggested it myself eventually. Although Buddy DOES remind me of another 3B/OF who should get in...)
There's of course others too.
Anyway, that's my way of thinking...

I'd take Gordon over all those guys, give him back those couple of years, and it's no contest. I'd put Trammell in over Whitaker, and I'm on the fence on Trammell. Whitaker ended up with better numbers, but because he played a few more years and ended up as a platoon player...a few extra years at the end of your career doesn't make you a Hall of Famer, in my book. Randolph was a good player for a very long time, but he was never great...at his best, he wasn't as good as Knoblauch, or Carlos Baerga.

[nightal]

Bill James deals with Travis' wartime experiences in depth in the latest historical abstract. He was never the same after wartime service.
I'd like to know on what basis that Whitaker, Grich and Randolph are superior to Gordon as HOF candidates?
Vern Stephens is superior to Travis and in my opinion, any shortstop not in the HOF as I've presented evidence before.

As far as pitchers, Guidry's the best not in the hall? Maybe in a season or two, but please back up your argument's with something.

[mandamin]

Guidry had two phenomenal years, but can't possibly compare to Bert Blyleven. They were almost exactly equal in terms of effectiveness (Blyleven has an ERA+ of 118, Guidry 119)--if you ignore the fact that Blyleven did it for 8 years and 2300 IP longer, and in less friendly parks (Guidry was a lefty pitching in a park that was murder on RH hitters).
I think that you definitely put Blyleven in, and maybe Carl Mays, and after that all you're doing is piling in more Early Wynns, Wait Hoyts and Jim Bunnings, and who needs that?
Let me throw two more names out there--first, Dick Allen. He was a jerk, but a far better player than Torre, not to mention almost every 1B currently in Cooperstown, and he was the best hitter in the NL from 1967 through 1974 (cumulative, not each and every year).
Second, Bobby Grich. He had five seasons--1974, 1976, 1979, 1981 and 1983--which were about as good as Whitaker's best year (1991), and was apparently a whiz with the glove. Total Baseball, which isn't a very good source but is the only thing I have available right now, rates him (using the lifetime Total Player Rating list) as the fourth-best 2B in history, which he isn't, but still, that's gotta count for something...