Bang for the Buck

[thomasstearns]

This thread is not related to 'Bama coaching.

I am curious about Wins per Payroll Dollar. Why isn't this number followed more closely? And why hasn't the casual fan (with his $87 ticket, $23 hot dog, and $19 soda) come to care more about the Wins per Dollar? I realize that WPD (like Pythagorean Runs Scored, for those of you who saw Lee's mailbag) won't thrill fans like winning the Series, but why aren't fans the least bit concerned?

I like this number as one measure of a team (at least so the fans know how dumb the front office is). And it ticks me off when Jay Leno makes Tigers jokes while the Mets probably have a worse ratio of wins to dollar--I say probably becuase I couldn't even find an accurate Wins per dollar breakdown online.

And looking beyond simple player payroll, why not throw in the front office salaries too. Certainly, wins per dollar ought to be a great measure of a GM. Maybe on a past three year or five year basis, so that the 2001 DBacks would fall back to earth and this year's indians might be balanced up in a couple years.

Obviously, a combination of this and actual stats such as OPS and Win Shares would be the best measure of salaries too. Does ARod stack up (could he ever)?

Isn't this what all stats are aiming toward...I mean, a comprehensive understanding of the game as game, as statistical model, and as financial model?

[SmedIndy]

Shouldn't be too hard to figure out, but for the D-Backs (and others) do you count actual or actual + deferred?

[Craig S.]

Not sure about last season, but Boston had the highest cost per win in 2001, with the Twins having the lowest. And the Dodgers have been running with the NL title for several years.

[WiredTiger]

It is a valid consideration. But when push comes to shove wins matter more than money. But it is a good way to measure how well the management is doing with the funds that they get.

[Ytown Tribe fan]

Originally posted by WiredTiger
It is a valid consideration. But when push comes to shove wins matter more than money. But it is a good way to measure how well the management is doing with the funds that they get.

Agreed. Only a cheap GM would use "wins per buck" as a justification for the job he's done.

A team with a bloated payroll and a losing record (Mets) is still a losing team. A team with a low payroll and a losing record (Tigers) is still a losing team. Does it matter to the fans that the Tigers are getting more bang for their bucks? Why would it?

Does it matter to A's fans that they are getting more wins per buck than the Yanks are? Why would it?

[KCBOOMER]

Originally posted by Ytown Tribe fan A team with a bloated payroll and a losing record is still a losing team. A team with a low payroll and a losing record is still a losing team.

If you were the owner and it was your money the GM was spending you would care a lot.

Most fans just want to win. It's not their money. Fans do get crazier when a lot of money is being spent and losing is all they get.

Any business student knows there is a relationship between WPD and team management. No reason to pay big bucks on a bad team.

[Ytown Tribe fan]

Originally posted by KCBOOMER
If you were the owner and it was your money the GM was spending you would care a lot.

Most fans just want to win. It's not their money. Fans do get crazier when a lot of money is being spent and losing is all they get.

I disagree. Tribe fans were up in arms when Dolan bought the team and immediately announced drastic payroll cuts. The consensus was, "Well, if he can't afford to compete, why did he buy the team at all?"

If I was the owner and it was MY money the GM was spending I WOULD care a lot. I'd care enough not to BUY the team unless I could afford to compete. There are plenty of businesses in America for an owner with a smaller budget. Maybe Dolan should stick to cable TV.

[OaktownTribeFan]

And why hasn't the casual fan (with his $87 ticket, $23 hot dog, and $19 soda) come to care more about the Wins per Dollar?

Where are you paying that much for a ticket? Perhaps it's that high for an NBA playoff ticket, but I've never heard of it being so high for a baseball ticket. Even at Fenway, which is one of the highest priced venues for baseball, they charge $40 for bleacher seats last I heard.

As for the notion that Dolan is cheap, the jury's still out. He paid an enormous sum to sign Guthrie, so the evidence is not there that he's a skinflint. Now if there's a good chance to win in 2004 or 05 and he won't pay for a free agent who can help the team get to the playoffs, then I'll agree he's a cheapskate. But I don't see conclusive evidence that he's that way just yet.

[Ytown Tribe fan]

Here's the Tribe million-dollar club (Opening Day salaries):

1) Ellis Burks $7.2 million
2) Matt Lawton $6.7 million
3) Bob Wickman $6 million
4) Omar Vizquel $5.7 million
5) Danys Baez $5.1 million
6) Ricky Gutierrez $3.9 million
7) Mark Wohlers $2.6 million
8) Brian Anderson $1.5 million
9) CC Sabathia $1.1 million
10) Jason Bere $1 million

Everyone else is making less than $1 million. Look at that list -- Wickman is out for the season, Wohlers MAY come back in June, Lawton has accepted losing as a way of life, Bere and Gutierrors are on the DL. Ellis is worth every penny at DH, Omar is Omar.

Even with the cost-cutting, the Tribe is spending almost all of the money on guys who aren't helping now and aren't part of the future. You could trim $20 million off the already pared team payroll and it wouldn't hurt a bit.

It must kill Dolan and Shapiro to have to keep Lawton on the roster.

[sweaver]

I have seen calculations of wins per $, usually at the end of the season....

[GGC]

I think that the stat you are referiing to is Doug Pappas's Marginal Wins Per Dollar. There is a de facto salary floor in the major leagues. I forget the figures, but you assume a roster where everyone makes the minimum salary. Add $2 million for disabled players and other expenses. A team like that is expected to win 40-something games. Subtract that figure from team wins and divide it by the dollar amount over the salary floor and you have Marginal Wins Per Dollar.

I suppose that you could calculate something similar from a fan's perspective. Price of Ballgame/Team wins.

Is this stat useful? That's another question. To quote Bill James: "Pass." It's been a long day.