ATM report--Phillies make a stupid signing

nyy26wc · 08-20-2002, 11:06 AM

1) Yesterday's games--

AL
Tigers 4, Mariners 3
A's 8, Indians 1
BlueJays 2, Royals 0
Devil Rays 7, Orioles 3
Twins 7, Whitesox 3

NL
Astros 7, Reds 5
Expos 4, Padres 0
Giants 3, Marlins 0
Braves 7, Rockies 6
Cardinals 7, Pirates 2

2) Standings--

Code:

AL EAST         WON  LOST  PCT  GB      HOME   ROAD   EAST  CENT  WEST STREAK
Yankees          77   45  .631   -     36-20  41-25  31-22 22-04 13-12 LOST 1
Redsox           70   52  .574   7     31-27  39-25  37-16 14-12 14-11 LOST 1
Orioles          59   63  .484  18     28-29  31-34  19-29 18-14 13-11 LOST 2
BlueJays         53   70  .431  24 1/2 30-33  23-37  24-27 08-10 12-24 WON  1
Devil Rays       42   82  .339  36     25-40  17-42  18-35 12-17 05-19 WON  1

AL CENTRAL      WON  LOST  PCT  GB      HOME   ROAD   EAST  CENT  WEST STREAK
Twins            74   52  .587   -     43-23  31-29  15-17 34-17 15-10 WON  2
Whitesox         58   67  .464  15 1/2 34-26  24-41  08-09 27-27 15-21 LOST 5
Indians          54   69  .439  18 1/2 29-30  25-39  16-10 22-31 10-16 LOST 2
Royals           50   75  .400  23 1/2 32-29  18-46  08-22 25-27 12-13 LOST 2
Tigers           48   76  .387  25     29-30  19-46  10-16 24-30 08-18 WON  2

AL WEST         WON  LOST  PCT  GB      HOME   ROAD   EAST  CENT  WEST STREAK
Angels           74   49  .602   -     41-24  33-25  14-08 30-15 19-19 WON  1
Mariners         75   50  .600   -     39-27  36-23  25-20 14-10 25-13 LOST 1
A's              74   51  .592   1     41-25  33-26  23-22 16-08 19-19 WON  6
Rangers          54   68  .443  20     32-32  22-36  15-07 18-27 13-25 WON  4

NL EAST         WON  LOST  PCT  GB      HOME   ROAD   EAST  CENT  WEST STREAK
Braves           80   43  .650   -     43-22  37-21  31-19 21-09 13-12 WON  1
Expos            62   62  .500  18 1/2 39-25  23-37  23-27 17-13 10-16 WON  2
Marlins          60   64  .484  20 1/2 38-28  22-36  24-26 14-16 12-14 LOST 1
Phillies         59   64  .480  21     33-31  26-33  23-26 12-12 14-18 LOST 2
Mets             58   65  .472  22     30-34  28-31  23-26 17-13 08-18 LOST 8

NL CENTRAL      WON  LOST  PCT  GB      HOME   ROAD   EAST  CENT  WEST STREAK
Cardinals        69   53  .566   -     37-22  32-31  11-16 35-24 15-09 WON  3
Astros           65   59  .524   5     34-25  31-34  16-14 39-32 05-07 WON  1
Reds             63   60  .512   6 1/2 32-32  31-28  12-12 35-25 14-13 LOST 1
Pirates          54   71  .432  16 1/2 28-37  26-34  08-04 33-38 10-20 LOST 1
Cubs             52   70  .426  17     28-36  24-34  10-14 24-35 12-15 WON  1
Brewers          43   80  .350  26 1/2 25-34  18-46  06-21 24-36 11-13 LOST 2

NL WEST         WON  LOST  PCT  GB      HOME   ROAD   EAST  CENT  WEST STREAK
Diamondbacks     78   46  .629   -     39-20  39-26  21-11 16-08 30-20 LOST 1
Dodgers          71   53  .573   7     33-26  38-27  16-10 17-13 26-24 WON  5
Giants           67   56  .545  10 1/2 34-25  33-31  13-12 17-13 29-21 WON  1
Rockies          58   66  .468  20     36-22  22-44  15-11 16-14 20-30 LOST 1
Padres           52   72  .419  26     31-29  21-43  13-13 11-19 20-30 LOST 2

3) Today's schedule--

AL
Devil Rays (Joe Kennedy) at Orioles (Jason Johnson), 7:05
Rangers (Joaquin Benoit) at Redsox (Derek Lowe), 7:05
A's (Aaron Harang) at Indians (Jake Westbrook), 7:05
Mariners (Freddy Garcia) at Tigers (Mike Maroth), 7:05
Angels (Aaron Sele) at Yankees (Andy Pettitte), 7:05
Royals (Miguel Asencio) at BlueJays (Justin Miller), 7:05
Twins (Kyle Lohse) at Whitesox (Jim Parque), 8:05

NL
Cubs (Carlos Zambrano) at Astros (Kirk Saarloos), 8:05
Phillies (Brett Myers) at Brewers (Jamey Wright), 8:05
Pirates (Kris Benson) at Cardinals (Luther Hackman), 8:10
Expos (Javier Vazquez) at Rockies (Denny Neagle), 9:05
Reds (Ryan Dempster) at Diamondbacks (Randy Johnson), 9:35
Braves (Damian Moss) at Padres (Brett Tomko), 10:05
Marlins (Brad Penny) at Dodgers (Kazuhisa Ishii), 10:10
Mets (Al Leiter) at Giants (Jason Schmidt), 10:15

4) Yesterday's HRs--

Jim Thome--#38
Vladimir Guerrero--#33
Lance Berkman--#32
Albert Pujols--#29
Eric Chavez--#27 & #28
Magglio Ordonez--#28
Jeff Bagwell--#24
Jim Edmonds--#24
Tony Batista--#23
Gary Sheffield--#22
Jacque Jones--#20 & #21
Carlos Lee--#20
Chipper Jones--#18 & #19
Marty Cordova--#17
David Ortiz--#16
Steve Cox--#15
Richard Hidalgo--#15
Ben Grieve--#12
Doug Mientkiewicz--#10
Chris Gomez--#8
Cristian Guzman--#7
Shannon Stewart--#7
Ken Griffey Jr.--#6
Julio Franco--#6

5) HR leaders--

AL
1) Alex Rodriguez--44
2) Jim Thome--38*
3) Rafael Palmeiro--34
T4) Jason Giambi--30
T4) Alfonso Soriano--30
T6) Eric Chavez--28**
T6) Magglio Ordonez--28*
8) Miguel Tejada--27
9) Ellis Burks--26
T10) Paul Konerko--25
T10) Robin Ventura--25

NL
1) Sammy Sosa--43
2) Shawn Green--36
3) Barry Bonds--34
4) Vladimir Guerrero--33*
5) Lance Berkman--32*
6) Brian Giles--30
T7) Pat Burrell--29
T7) Albert Pujols--29*
9) Fred McGriff--27
T10) Jeff Kent--26
T10) Andruw Jones--26
T10) Richie Sexson--26

**--hit 2 yesterday
*--hit 1 yesterday

6) The Angels passed the Mariners into 1st place in the AL West, by 2 percentage points.

7) Ken Griffey Jr. passed Dave Winfield into 24th place on the all time HR list, with 466.

8) Gary Sheffield passed Joe Adcock into 72nd place on the all time HR list, with 337.

9) Jim Thome passed Cecil Fielder into 81st place on the all time HR list, with 320.

10) Julio Franco hit his 150th career HR.

nyy26wc · 08-20-2002, 11:07 AM

1) The Phillies signed C Mike Lieberthal to a 3 year, $22.25 million contract extension, with a team option for 2006.

Judging by several pieces of hate mail I got after criticizing the Yankees for the Jorge Posada signing, it is clear that there are people out there who are offended by the idea that it's stupid to expect a catcher not to decline in his 30s.

While I doubt any of those messages came from the Phillies front office, this move shows they are in the catcher don't decline group.

They are also making the mistake of paying Lieberthal on the assumption that he'll continue to be productive, while overlooking the fact that this he's a 30 year old who's only having the 2nd positive RCAA of his career, with the only other positive year coming back in 1999, and he's never gone over 18.

After 0 RCAA/.822 OPS and -4 RCAA/.663 OPS the past 2 years, Lieberthal's off to a .480 SLG, .353 OBA, .833 OPS, 13 RCAA start in his first 699 games. He has a .792 career OPS, compared to his league average of .776, and -1 RCAA in 699 games.

Let's take a look at some of the other comparable catchers, through the age of 30, and see what they did the rest of their careers. We'll define comparable as 2500+ PA, with an OPS vs. the league average that is +/- .010 of Lieberthal's rate or RCAA +/- 10

Terry Kennedy (OPS +.006 vs. league average, 1 RCAA through the age of 30): OPS -.075 vs. league average, -48 RCAA

Bob O'Farrell (OPS +.021, 40 RCAA): OPS -.070, -38 RCAA

Darren Daulton (OPS +.022, 36 RCAA): OPS +.088, 78 RCAA

Manny Sanguillen (OPS +.013, 6 RCAA): OPS -.007, -8 RCAA

Rick Ferrell (OPS +.012, 1 RCAA): OPS -.059, -40 RCAA

Tim McCarver (OPS +.012, 9 RCAA): OPS +.023, 21 RCAA

Sherm Lollar (OPS +.012, -7 RCAA): OPS +.022, 28 RCAA

Eddie Taubensee (OPS +.011, 12 RCAA): OPS -.091, -18 RCAA

Todd Hundley (OPS +.010, 13 RCAA, only counting when he was a C and excluding his single year as LF): OPS -.031, -4 RCAA (but, give him some more time and his career trends forecast much worse eventual numbers)

Deacon McGuire (OPS +.010, -4 RCAA): OPS .000, -38 RCAA

Terry Kennedy (OPS +.006, 1 RCAA): OPS -.075, -48 RCAA

Mike Scioscia (OPS -.009, 9 RCAA): OPS -.022, -4 RCAA

Terry Steinbach (OPS +.002, 3 RCAA): OPS -.010, -38 RCAA

Harry Danning (OPS +.019, -4 RCAA): never played again

John Stearns (OPS -.006, -7 RCAA): OPS -.142, 0 RCAA in just 12 games over 2 years

Ed McFarland (OPS +.001, -8 RCAA): OPS +.004, 1 RCAA in a mere 78 games over 3 years

Anyone feel comfortable expecting Lieberthal to be one of the exceptions?

2) The Yankees placed P Mariano Rivera on the 15 day DL, retroactive to Friday, and called up P Mike Thurman.

Rivera has a strained shoulder. It's his 3rd trip to the DL this year. After 20, 19 and 19 RSAA over the past 3 years, Rivera's fallen to 2.85 ERA/6 RSAA in his first 40 games. He has a 2.60 career ERA, compared to his league average of 4.74, and 130 RSAA in 443 games.

3) The Marlins placed P A.J. Burnett on the 15 day DL and called up P Blaine Neal.

Burnett has a bruised elbow and, with the team out of the pennant race, is expected to be kept out for the rest of the season. After a 4.05 ERA/3 RSAA in his first full season in the majors, the 25 year old posted a 3.25 ERA/15 RSAA in 27 starts this year. His 5 SHO lead the league and are a new Marlins single season record.

Carl Pavano will move into Burnett's spot in the rotation. He's working on his 2nd year with a double digit negative RSAA and the 4th negative figure of his 5 year career--5.59 ERA/-16 RSAA in his first 29 games (14 starts), while he has a 3.05 ERA/2 RSAA in 14 starts since being acquired in a trade from bud's team.

4) The Indians placed 2B Ricky Gutierrez on the 15 day DL, called up INF Greg LaRocca and moved P Bob Wickman from the 15 to the 60 day DL.

Gutierrez has a strained neck.

LaRocca, 29, came into the year with a .802 OPS (.365 OBA, .437 SLG) in 8 minor league seasons and is off to a .834 OPS (.402 OBA, .432 SLG) start in AAA this year. He appeared in 13 games with the 2000 Padres, with a .546 OPS/-3 RCAA.

5) The Braves activated P Kevin Gryboski from the DL and placed P John Foster on the 15 day DL.

Gryboski, a 28 year old rookie is off to a 2.27 ERA/9 RSAA in his first 42 major league games.

Foster has minor dizziness, with vertigo a possibility. The 24 year old is off to a 10.80 ERA/-4 RSAA start in his first 5 major league games.

6) The Reds sent P Jared Fernandez to the minors, placed P John Riedling on the 15 day DL and plan on calling up Ps Luke Hudson and Chris Reitsma before today's game.

Fernandez, a 30 year old rookie who also pitched in 5 games last year, is off to a 4.27 ERA/1 RSAA start in his first 11 games (8 starts).

Riedling has a strained right groin. After starting his career with 2.35 ERA/4 RSAA and 2.41 ERA/7 RSAA seasons, he's off to a 2.55 ERA/7 RSAA start in his first 22 games.

Hudson's off to a 3.60 ERA/0 RSAA start in his first 2 major league games.

After a 5.29 ERA/-20 RSAA as a 23 year old rookie in 2001, Reitsma's off to a 3.41 ERA/13 RSAA start in his first 21 games (19 starts).

7) The Rangers called up P C.J. Nitkowski and sent P Reynaldo Garcia to the minors.

Nitkowski has a 5.37 career ERA, compared to his league average of 4.69, and -32 RSAA in 270 games over the past 7 years, with the Reds, Tigers, Astros and Mets.

8) John Roseboro died on Friday, at the age of 69.

Roseboro caught for the Dodgers from 1957-67, before finishing his career with the Twins (1968-69) and Senators (1970). He had a .697 career OPS, compared to his league average of .723, and -29 RCAA in 1585 games.

9) Mariners OF Ruben Sierra left yesterday's game, due to a strained left quadriceps.

After -5 RCAA/.565 OPS and 8 RCAA/.884 OPS the past 2 years, Sierra's off to a .429 SLG, .325 OBA, .755 OPS, 0 RCAA start in his first 106 games. He has a .771 career OPS, compared to his league average of .744, and 35 RCAA in 1882 games.

10) Rockies RF Larry Walker had to leave yesterday's game, due to muscle spasms in the middle of his back.

While Walker usually doesn't need to have an excuse to get hurt, this time he's blaming it on a lumpy bed in the hotel. But, he has shown good health the past 2 years, playing in 142 games in 2001 and 110 so far this year. Walker's 79 RCAA in 2002 brings his career total up to 474.

Active RCAA leaders--

Code:

1    Barry Bonds                1204   
2    Rickey Henderson            799   
3    Frank Thomas                716   
4    Jeff Bagwell                645   
5    Edgar Martinez              631   
6    Rafael Palmeiro             537   
7    Tim Raines                  534   
8    Ken Griffey Jr.             533   
9    Gary Sheffield              496   
10   Fred McGriff                489   
11   Larry Walker                474

12) After being out of the lineup for the past 3 games, due to a slump, Mariners CF Mike Cameron is expected to return today.

After 13 RCAA/.803 OPS and 24 RCAA/.832 OPS the past 2 years, Cameron's off to a .429 SLG, .325 OBA, .754 OPS, 3 RCAA start in his first 122 games. He has a .774 career OPS, compared to his league average of .777, and 30 RCAA in 869 games.

13) The Indians sent P Ryan Drese to the minors and called up P Ricardo Rodriguez.

Drese, a 26 year old rookie who also appeared in 9 games in the majors last year, is off to a terrible 6.73 ERA/-31 RSAA start in his first 24 starts. Drese has a comfortable lead over Paul Abbott (-23) for the worst RSAA in the AL, while he's battling Ryan Dempster (-30) and the also recently demoted Ruben Quevedo (-29) for the major league title.

Rodriguez was acquired from the Dodgers in the Paul Shuey trade, will move into Drese's spot in the rotation and make his major league debut tomorrow.

14) The Twins activated P Matt Kinney from the DL and sent him to the minors.

15) The Indians have moved minor league prospect Brandon Phillips from SS to 2B. Phillips was acquired in the Bartolo Colon trade and is regarded as a top SS prospect.

Fuzzy Bear · 08-20-2002, 06:18 PM

I probably wouldn't have signed Lieberthal if I were Phillies' GM, but I can see worse signings. He hasn't caught that many career games, so his decline may not be as precipitous as some.

I suspect that this signing will not be viewed as outrageous at the end of the contract as at the beginning, simply because of inflation. Lots of guys have signed for what seemed outrageous $$$ at the time, but in 3-4 years, it was the going rate. If Lieberthal holds 85% of his current value over the life of the contract, which he well may do, within the current salary structure, this isn't too bad.

Incidentally, I view Lieberthal as a much better risk over the next 3 years than Javy Lopez.

poorme · 08-20-2002, 08:19 PM

Hey, i've got nothing against mike leiberthal, but $22 million? that's just plain nuts. these are the types of deals that bad clubs make. that 22 mil could have been spent on on a quality player.

VNV Nation · 08-20-2002, 08:23 PM

Looking at that list...most of those guys had caught a lot more games than Lieberthal, and most of them didn't suffer a precipitous decline in production until age 33 or so.

poorme · 08-20-2002, 08:30 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by VNV Nation
Looking at that list...most of those guys had caught a lot more games than Lieberthal, and most of them didn't suffer a precipitous decline in production until age 33 or so.

well, think about it this way. suppose you had a budget of $70 million. would you burn 10% of it on leiberthal? I wouldn't. too risky.

VNV Nation · 08-20-2002, 08:58 PM

Hmm...I don't know. Lieberthal seems less replaceable to me than Rolen. Catcher is one position where you could easily end up with a total loser -- Lieberthal's gotta be one of the top 5 catchers in baseball.

nyy26wc · 08-20-2002, 10:42 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by VNV Nation
Looking at that list...most of those guys had caught a lot more games than Lieberthal, and most of them didn't suffer a precipitous decline in production until age 33 or so.

Lieberthal's caught over 1200 games. Just because about 40% of them were in the minors means nothing, unless he's got a body that doesn't get affected unless the game has a major league label attached to it.

VNV Nation · 08-21-2002, 03:40 AM

I assume some of the other guys also played in the minors, no?

nyy26wc · 08-21-2002, 09:03 AM

Other guys played in the minors, too. But, it doesn't change the fact that Lieberthal's been an everyday catcher for the past decade.

In his case, all of those partial seasons at the beginning of the career wasn't because he was sitting on the major league bench at the start of his career. It was because he was playing everyday in the minors, except for brief times on the majors, and wasn't giving his body any rest on the bench.

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08-20-2002, 11:06 AM	#1
nyy26wc NetShrine All-Century Team Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: NJ Posts: 14,584	ATM report--Phillies make a stupid signing 1) Yesterday's games-- AL Tigers 4, Mariners 3 A's 8, Indians 1 BlueJays 2, Royals 0 Devil Rays 7, Orioles 3 Twins 7, Whitesox 3 NL Astros 7, Reds 5 Expos 4, Padres 0 Giants 3, Marlins 0 Braves 7, Rockies 6 Cardinals 7, Pirates 2 2) Standings-- Code: AL EAST WON LOST PCT GB HOME ROAD EAST CENT WEST STREAK Yankees 77 45 .631 - 36-20 41-25 31-22 22-04 13-12 LOST 1 Redsox 70 52 .574 7 31-27 39-25 37-16 14-12 14-11 LOST 1 Orioles 59 63 .484 18 28-29 31-34 19-29 18-14 13-11 LOST 2 BlueJays 53 70 .431 24 1/2 30-33 23-37 24-27 08-10 12-24 WON 1 Devil Rays 42 82 .339 36 25-40 17-42 18-35 12-17 05-19 WON 1 AL CENTRAL WON LOST PCT GB HOME ROAD EAST CENT WEST STREAK Twins 74 52 .587 - 43-23 31-29 15-17 34-17 15-10 WON 2 Whitesox 58 67 .464 15 1/2 34-26 24-41 08-09 27-27 15-21 LOST 5 Indians 54 69 .439 18 1/2 29-30 25-39 16-10 22-31 10-16 LOST 2 Royals 50 75 .400 23 1/2 32-29 18-46 08-22 25-27 12-13 LOST 2 Tigers 48 76 .387 25 29-30 19-46 10-16 24-30 08-18 WON 2 AL WEST WON LOST PCT GB HOME ROAD EAST CENT WEST STREAK Angels 74 49 .602 - 41-24 33-25 14-08 30-15 19-19 WON 1 Mariners 75 50 .600 - 39-27 36-23 25-20 14-10 25-13 LOST 1 A's 74 51 .592 1 41-25 33-26 23-22 16-08 19-19 WON 6 Rangers 54 68 .443 20 32-32 22-36 15-07 18-27 13-25 WON 4 NL EAST WON LOST PCT GB HOME ROAD EAST CENT WEST STREAK Braves 80 43 .650 - 43-22 37-21 31-19 21-09 13-12 WON 1 Expos 62 62 .500 18 1/2 39-25 23-37 23-27 17-13 10-16 WON 2 Marlins 60 64 .484 20 1/2 38-28 22-36 24-26 14-16 12-14 LOST 1 Phillies 59 64 .480 21 33-31 26-33 23-26 12-12 14-18 LOST 2 Mets 58 65 .472 22 30-34 28-31 23-26 17-13 08-18 LOST 8 NL CENTRAL WON LOST PCT GB HOME ROAD EAST CENT WEST STREAK Cardinals 69 53 .566 - 37-22 32-31 11-16 35-24 15-09 WON 3 Astros 65 59 .524 5 34-25 31-34 16-14 39-32 05-07 WON 1 Reds 63 60 .512 6 1/2 32-32 31-28 12-12 35-25 14-13 LOST 1 Pirates 54 71 .432 16 1/2 28-37 26-34 08-04 33-38 10-20 LOST 1 Cubs 52 70 .426 17 28-36 24-34 10-14 24-35 12-15 WON 1 Brewers 43 80 .350 26 1/2 25-34 18-46 06-21 24-36 11-13 LOST 2 NL WEST WON LOST PCT GB HOME ROAD EAST CENT WEST STREAK Diamondbacks 78 46 .629 - 39-20 39-26 21-11 16-08 30-20 LOST 1 Dodgers 71 53 .573 7 33-26 38-27 16-10 17-13 26-24 WON 5 Giants 67 56 .545 10 1/2 34-25 33-31 13-12 17-13 29-21 WON 1 Rockies 58 66 .468 20 36-22 22-44 15-11 16-14 20-30 LOST 1 Padres 52 72 .419 26 31-29 21-43 13-13 11-19 20-30 LOST 2 3) Today's schedule-- AL Devil Rays (Joe Kennedy) at Orioles (Jason Johnson), 7:05 Rangers (Joaquin Benoit) at Redsox (Derek Lowe), 7:05 A's (Aaron Harang) at Indians (Jake Westbrook), 7:05 Mariners (Freddy Garcia) at Tigers (Mike Maroth), 7:05 Angels (Aaron Sele) at Yankees (Andy Pettitte), 7:05 Royals (Miguel Asencio) at BlueJays (Justin Miller), 7:05 Twins (Kyle Lohse) at Whitesox (Jim Parque), 8:05 NL Cubs (Carlos Zambrano) at Astros (Kirk Saarloos), 8:05 Phillies (Brett Myers) at Brewers (Jamey Wright), 8:05 Pirates (Kris Benson) at Cardinals (Luther Hackman), 8:10 Expos (Javier Vazquez) at Rockies (Denny Neagle), 9:05 Reds (Ryan Dempster) at Diamondbacks (Randy Johnson), 9:35 Braves (Damian Moss) at Padres (Brett Tomko), 10:05 Marlins (Brad Penny) at Dodgers (Kazuhisa Ishii), 10:10 Mets (Al Leiter) at Giants (Jason Schmidt), 10:15 4) Yesterday's HRs-- Jim Thome--#38 Vladimir Guerrero--#33 Lance Berkman--#32 Albert Pujols--#29 Eric Chavez--#27 & #28 Magglio Ordonez--#28 Jeff Bagwell--#24 Jim Edmonds--#24 Tony Batista--#23 Gary Sheffield--#22 Jacque Jones--#20 & #21 Carlos Lee--#20 Chipper Jones--#18 & #19 Marty Cordova--#17 David Ortiz--#16 Steve Cox--#15 Richard Hidalgo--#15 Ben Grieve--#12 Doug Mientkiewicz--#10 Chris Gomez--#8 Cristian Guzman--#7 Shannon Stewart--#7 Ken Griffey Jr.--#6 Julio Franco--#6 5) HR leaders-- AL 1) Alex Rodriguez--44 2) Jim Thome--38* 3) Rafael Palmeiro--34 T4) Jason Giambi--30 T4) Alfonso Soriano--30 T6) Eric Chavez--28** T6) Magglio Ordonez--28* 8) Miguel Tejada--27 9) Ellis Burks--26 T10) Paul Konerko--25 T10) Robin Ventura--25 NL 1) Sammy Sosa--43 2) Shawn Green--36 3) Barry Bonds--34 4) Vladimir Guerrero--33* 5) Lance Berkman--32* 6) Brian Giles--30 T7) Pat Burrell--29 T7) Albert Pujols--29* 9) Fred McGriff--27 T10) Jeff Kent--26 T10) Andruw Jones--26 T10) Richie Sexson--26 *--hit 2 yesterday --hit 1 yesterday 6) The Angels passed the Mariners into 1st place in the AL West, by 2 percentage points. 7) Ken Griffey Jr. passed Dave Winfield into 24th place on the all time HR list, with 466. 8) Gary Sheffield passed Joe Adcock into 72nd place on the all time HR list, with 337. 9) Jim Thome passed Cecil Fielder into 81st place on the all time HR list, with 320. 10) Julio Franco hit his 150th career HR. __________________ Lee Creator, Complete Baseball Encyclopedia. It's powerful, yet extremely easy to use. Features extensive sorting and stat display options. The CBE has many features that are not available in online and printed sources. Has 2006 stats and daily update service for 2007.

08-20-2002, 11:07 AM	#2
nyy26wc NetShrine All-Century Team Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: NJ Posts: 14,584	1) The Phillies signed C Mike Lieberthal to a 3 year, $22.25 million contract extension, with a team option for 2006. Judging by several pieces of hate mail I got after criticizing the Yankees for the Jorge Posada signing, it is clear that there are people out there who are offended by the idea that it's stupid to expect a catcher not to decline in his 30s. While I doubt any of those messages came from the Phillies front office, this move shows they are in the catcher don't decline group. They are also making the mistake of paying Lieberthal on the assumption that he'll continue to be productive, while overlooking the fact that this he's a 30 year old who's only having the 2nd positive RCAA of his career, with the only other positive year coming back in 1999, and he's never gone over 18. After 0 RCAA/.822 OPS and -4 RCAA/.663 OPS the past 2 years, Lieberthal's off to a .480 SLG, .353 OBA, .833 OPS, 13 RCAA start in his first 699 games. He has a .792 career OPS, compared to his league average of .776, and -1 RCAA in 699 games. Let's take a look at some of the other comparable catchers, through the age of 30, and see what they did the rest of their careers. We'll define comparable as 2500+ PA, with an OPS vs. the league average that is +/- .010 of Lieberthal's rate or RCAA +/- 10 Terry Kennedy (OPS +.006 vs. league average, 1 RCAA through the age of 30): OPS -.075 vs. league average, -48 RCAA Bob O'Farrell (OPS +.021, 40 RCAA): OPS -.070, -38 RCAA Darren Daulton (OPS +.022, 36 RCAA): OPS +.088, 78 RCAA Manny Sanguillen (OPS +.013, 6 RCAA): OPS -.007, -8 RCAA Rick Ferrell (OPS +.012, 1 RCAA): OPS -.059, -40 RCAA Tim McCarver (OPS +.012, 9 RCAA): OPS +.023, 21 RCAA Sherm Lollar (OPS +.012, -7 RCAA): OPS +.022, 28 RCAA Eddie Taubensee (OPS +.011, 12 RCAA): OPS -.091, -18 RCAA Todd Hundley (OPS +.010, 13 RCAA, only counting when he was a C and excluding his single year as LF): OPS -.031, -4 RCAA (but, give him some more time and his career trends forecast much worse eventual numbers) Deacon McGuire (OPS +.010, -4 RCAA): OPS .000, -38 RCAA Terry Kennedy (OPS +.006, 1 RCAA): OPS -.075, -48 RCAA Mike Scioscia (OPS -.009, 9 RCAA): OPS -.022, -4 RCAA Terry Steinbach (OPS +.002, 3 RCAA): OPS -.010, -38 RCAA Harry Danning (OPS +.019, -4 RCAA): never played again John Stearns (OPS -.006, -7 RCAA): OPS -.142, 0 RCAA in just 12 games over 2 years Ed McFarland (OPS +.001, -8 RCAA): OPS +.004, 1 RCAA in a mere 78 games over 3 years Anyone feel comfortable expecting Lieberthal to be one of the exceptions? 2) The Yankees placed P Mariano Rivera on the 15 day DL, retroactive to Friday, and called up P Mike Thurman. Rivera has a strained shoulder. It's his 3rd trip to the DL this year. After 20, 19 and 19 RSAA over the past 3 years, Rivera's fallen to 2.85 ERA/6 RSAA in his first 40 games. He has a 2.60 career ERA, compared to his league average of 4.74, and 130 RSAA in 443 games. 3) The Marlins placed P A.J. Burnett on the 15 day DL and called up P Blaine Neal. Burnett has a bruised elbow and, with the team out of the pennant race, is expected to be kept out for the rest of the season. After a 4.05 ERA/3 RSAA in his first full season in the majors, the 25 year old posted a 3.25 ERA/15 RSAA in 27 starts this year. His 5 SHO lead the league and are a new Marlins single season record. Carl Pavano will move into Burnett's spot in the rotation. He's working on his 2nd year with a double digit negative RSAA and the 4th negative figure of his 5 year career--5.59 ERA/-16 RSAA in his first 29 games (14 starts), while he has a 3.05 ERA/2 RSAA in 14 starts since being acquired in a trade from bud's team. 4) The Indians placed 2B Ricky Gutierrez on the 15 day DL, called up INF Greg LaRocca and moved P Bob Wickman from the 15 to the 60 day DL. Gutierrez has a strained neck. LaRocca, 29, came into the year with a .802 OPS (.365 OBA, .437 SLG) in 8 minor league seasons and is off to a .834 OPS (.402 OBA, .432 SLG) start in AAA this year. He appeared in 13 games with the 2000 Padres, with a .546 OPS/-3 RCAA. 5) The Braves activated P Kevin Gryboski from the DL and placed P John Foster on the 15 day DL. Gryboski, a 28 year old rookie is off to a 2.27 ERA/9 RSAA in his first 42 major league games. Foster has minor dizziness, with vertigo a possibility. The 24 year old is off to a 10.80 ERA/-4 RSAA start in his first 5 major league games. 6) The Reds sent P Jared Fernandez to the minors, placed P John Riedling on the 15 day DL and plan on calling up Ps Luke Hudson and Chris Reitsma before today's game. Fernandez, a 30 year old rookie who also pitched in 5 games last year, is off to a 4.27 ERA/1 RSAA start in his first 11 games (8 starts). Riedling has a strained right groin. After starting his career with 2.35 ERA/4 RSAA and 2.41 ERA/7 RSAA seasons, he's off to a 2.55 ERA/7 RSAA start in his first 22 games. Hudson's off to a 3.60 ERA/0 RSAA start in his first 2 major league games. After a 5.29 ERA/-20 RSAA as a 23 year old rookie in 2001, Reitsma's off to a 3.41 ERA/13 RSAA start in his first 21 games (19 starts). 7) The Rangers called up P C.J. Nitkowski and sent P Reynaldo Garcia to the minors. Nitkowski has a 5.37 career ERA, compared to his league average of 4.69, and -32 RSAA in 270 games over the past 7 years, with the Reds, Tigers, Astros and Mets. 8) John Roseboro died on Friday, at the age of 69. Roseboro caught for the Dodgers from 1957-67, before finishing his career with the Twins (1968-69) and Senators (1970). He had a .697 career OPS, compared to his league average of .723, and -29 RCAA in 1585 games. 9) Mariners OF Ruben Sierra left yesterday's game, due to a strained left quadriceps. After -5 RCAA/.565 OPS and 8 RCAA/.884 OPS the past 2 years, Sierra's off to a .429 SLG, .325 OBA, .755 OPS, 0 RCAA start in his first 106 games. He has a .771 career OPS, compared to his league average of .744, and 35 RCAA in 1882 games. 10) Rockies RF Larry Walker had to leave yesterday's game, due to muscle spasms in the middle of his back. While Walker usually doesn't need to have an excuse to get hurt, this time he's blaming it on a lumpy bed in the hotel. But, he has shown good health the past 2 years, playing in 142 games in 2001 and 110 so far this year. Walker's 79 RCAA in 2002 brings his career total up to 474. Active RCAA leaders-- Code: 1 Barry Bonds 1204 2 Rickey Henderson 799 3 Frank Thomas 716 4 Jeff Bagwell 645 5 Edgar Martinez 631 6 Rafael Palmeiro 537 7 Tim Raines 534 8 Ken Griffey Jr. 533 9 Gary Sheffield 496 10 Fred McGriff 489 11 Larry Walker 474 12) After being out of the lineup for the past 3 games, due to a slump, Mariners CF Mike Cameron is expected to return today. After 13 RCAA/.803 OPS and 24 RCAA/.832 OPS the past 2 years, Cameron's off to a .429 SLG, .325 OBA, .754 OPS, 3 RCAA start in his first 122 games. He has a .774 career OPS, compared to his league average of .777, and 30 RCAA in 869 games. 13) The Indians sent P Ryan Drese to the minors and called up P Ricardo Rodriguez. Drese, a 26 year old rookie who also appeared in 9 games in the majors last year, is off to a terrible 6.73 ERA/-31 RSAA start in his first 24 starts. Drese has a comfortable lead over Paul Abbott (-23) for the worst RSAA in the AL, while he's battling Ryan Dempster (-30) and the also recently demoted Ruben Quevedo (-29) for the major league title. Rodriguez was acquired from the Dodgers in the Paul Shuey trade, will move into Drese's spot in the rotation and make his major league debut tomorrow. 14) The Twins activated P Matt Kinney from the DL and sent him to the minors. 15) The Indians have moved minor league prospect Brandon Phillips from SS to 2B. Phillips was acquired in the Bartolo Colon trade and is regarded as a top SS prospect. __________________ Lee Creator, Complete Baseball Encyclopedia. It's powerful, yet extremely easy to use. Features extensive sorting and stat display options. The CBE has many features that are not available in online and printed sources. Has 2006 stats and daily update service for 2007.

08-20-2002, 06:18 PM	#3
Fuzzy Bear NetShrine's Evangelist Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Living by faith, and not by sight! Posts: 2,194	I probably wouldn't have signed Lieberthal if I were Phillies' GM, but I can see worse signings. He hasn't caught that many career games, so his decline may not be as precipitous as some. I suspect that this signing will not be viewed as outrageous at the end of the contract as at the beginning, simply because of inflation. Lots of guys have signed for what seemed outrageous $$$ at the time, but in 3-4 years, it was the going rate. If Lieberthal holds 85% of his current value over the life of the contract, which he well may do, within the current salary structure, this isn't too bad. Incidentally, I view Lieberthal as a much better risk over the next 3 years than Javy Lopez.

08-20-2002, 08:19 PM	#4
poorme Guest Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: washington dc Posts: 2,625	Hey, i've got nothing against mike leiberthal, but $22 million? that's just plain nuts. these are the types of deals that bad clubs make. that 22 mil could have been spent on on a quality player.

08-20-2002, 08:23 PM	#5
VNV Nation Membership Suspended 11/19/02 Join Date: May 2002 Location: VNV Nation Posts: 2,952	Looking at that list...most of those guys had caught a lot more games than Lieberthal, and most of them didn't suffer a precipitous decline in production until age 33 or so.

08-20-2002, 08:58 PM	#7
VNV Nation Membership Suspended 11/19/02 Join Date: May 2002 Location: VNV Nation Posts: 2,952	Hmm...I don't know. Lieberthal seems less replaceable to me than Rolen. Catcher is one position where you could easily end up with a total loser -- Lieberthal's gotta be one of the top 5 catchers in baseball.

08-21-2002, 03:40 AM	#9
VNV Nation Membership Suspended 11/19/02 Join Date: May 2002 Location: VNV Nation Posts: 2,952	I assume some of the other guys also played in the minors, no?

08-21-2002, 09:03 AM	#10
nyy26wc NetShrine All-Century Team Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: NJ Posts: 14,584	Other guys played in the minors, too. But, it doesn't change the fact that Lieberthal's been an everyday catcher for the past decade. In his case, all of those partial seasons at the beginning of the career wasn't because he was sitting on the major league bench at the start of his career. It was because he was playing everyday in the minors, except for brief times on the majors, and wasn't giving his body any rest on the bench. __________________ Lee Creator, Complete Baseball Encyclopedia. It's powerful, yet extremely easy to use. Features extensive sorting and stat display options. The CBE has many features that are not available in online and printed sources. Has 2006 stats and daily update service for 2007.

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