Playing in NY

[captain_napalm]

Where and when did NYC get the reputation of being a "tough city to play in?"

I've looked around and I can't see any cases where a player was good, bombed in NY, then was good again after he left, that I couldn't attribute to age or injury. I see a lot of players who performed to their level. Admittedly, I haven't really looked that hard.

Going by what the media says (I know, I know, bear with me...) the following players couldn't or can't play in NY because they can't handle the "pressure" or whatever metric they use to determine these things.

Kenny Rogers
Jeff Weaver
Carl Pavano
Jose Contreras
Ed Whitson
Alex Rodriguez

I'm not sure how they've come to that conclusion.

Rogers: Had a good year in NY, in line with his career numbers, then had a bad year. He could've been recovering from surgery, he could've had an off year. It happens. Bounced back nicely with the A's in 1998, then had a year similar to his 1996 year, splitting time with the A's and Mets.

Weaver: A world of potential when he came to NY, fizzled then dumped on the Dodgers. Did a decent year in LA, then got shelled when pitching for the Angels. Now plying his trade with the Cards, and getting shelled with them too.

Pavano: Was injury prone when the Red Sox, Expos, and Marlins had him. Why should it be suprising when he suffers injury as a Yankee?

Contreras: Like Rogers, had one good year and one bad (1/2) year. Dumped on the White Sox, had a bad (1/2) year with them too. Turned it around in Chicago. It could be me, but I don't understand how pitching all those years in Cuba, then defecting, could not be more stressful than pitching in NY. Having said that, I understood at the time why the trade was made, and chances are, would make the trade again (though not for Loaiza; he already had a track record of mediocrity. Better the devil you know... )

Whitson: Seems to be the poster boy for those who "can't play in NY," but he wasn't that good before he came to NY. And it's not like he got better when he left; he had a good year three years removed from NY in 1989 & 90.

Rodriguez: Funny that the DEFENDING AL MVP's name comes up in this discussion, but there has been discussion that he may not "have what it takes" to play in NY. Seems to be doing ok AFAICT.

[nyy26wc]

The stats show that players play significantly better in New York than they do elsewhere.

I just had Access give me the career totals for everyone who played for the Yankees, Mets, Brooklyn Dodgers and New York Giants.

HITTING
15,824 career RCAA
5,081,604 career PA
career rate of .31 RCAA/PA

HITTING WHILE PLAYING FOR A NEW YORK TEAM
5388 career RCAA
1,314,689 career PA
career rate of .41 RCAA/100 PA

HITTING FOR THE REST OF THEIR CAREERS
10,436 career RCAA
3,766,915 career PA
career rate of .28 RCAA/100 PA

RCAA increase while in NY vs. with other teams: 48%

PITCHING
12,805 career RSAA
1,255,490 2/3 career IP
career rate of 1.02 RSAA/100 IP

PITCHING WHILE PLAYING FOR A NY TEAM
5084 career RSAA
410,718 1/3 career IP
career rate of 1.24 RSAA/100 IP

PITCHING FOR THE REST OF THEIR CAREERS
7721 career RSAA
844,772 1/3 career IP
career rate of .91 RSAA/100 IP

RSAA increase while playing in NY vs. with other teams: 35%

[hopbitters]

If it's NYC, then the same theory should apply to the Mets, no? And the Rangers, Giants, Jets, Knicks, etc. etc. Heck, why not throw in Schmeling-Louis, Norton-Ali, Leonard-Tendler...

[nyy26wc]

Originally Posted by hopbitters

If it's NYC, then the same theory should apply to the Mets, no? And the Rangers, Giants, Jets, Knicks, etc. etc. Heck, why not throw in Schmeling-Louis, Norton-Ali, Leonard-Tendler...

The theory does not work for the Mets.

They average -.01 RCAA/100 PA for their entire careers, -.53 RCAA/100 PA while playing for the Mets, .13 RCAA/100 PA elsewhere.

So, this means that the increase would be even more drastic if you threw the Mets out.

[nyy26wc]

It is also not the case that the Mets pitching is better when they are wearing their uniforms.

Their pitchers have combined for 1.03 career RSAA/100 IP, -.17 RSAA/100 IP with the Mets and 1.13 RSAA/100 IP elsewhere.

[Crash Course]

Lee - what would happen to those NY stats if you took Babe Ruth and Red Ruffing out of the totals?

[nyy26wc]

Here are the figures for the Yankees--

HITTING TOTALS
11,874 career RCAA
2,140,928 career PA
career rate of .55 RCAA/100 PA

WITH THE YANKEES
8639 career RCAA
588,212 career PA
career rate of 1.47 RCAA/100 PA

REST OF THEIR CAREERS
3235 career RCAA
1,552,716 career PA
career rate of .21 RCAA/100 PA

Increase in performance with the Yankees vs. the rest of their careers: 165%

PITCHING TOTALS

WHOLE CAREERS
9521 career RSAA
599,643 career IP
career rate of 1.59 RSAA/100 IP

WITH THE YANKEES
2552 career RSAA
144,624 career IP
career rate of 1.76 RSAA/100 IP

REST OF THEIR CAREERS
6969 career RSAA
455,019 career IP
career rate of 1.53 RSAA/100 IP

Increase in performance with the Yankees vs. the rest of their careers: 11%.

So, Yankees hitters perform extremely better with the team than elsewhere. But, while the pitchers perform better with the team, it's not as much as the overall NY increase. And, since the Mets pitchers decline with the team, that means that the Dodgers & Giants were the ones to experience the best increases.

[nyy26wc]

Originally Posted by Crash Course

Lee - what would happen to those NY stats if you took Babe Ruth and Red Ruffing out of the totals?

I don't know what happens to the overall stats, but I took a look at what happens to the Yankees stats.

Without Ruth, the hitting is up 156%.

Without Ruffing, the pitching is up 4%.

[nyy26wc]

Originally Posted by nyy26wc

But, while the pitchers perform better with the team, it's not as much as the overall NY increase. And, since the Mets pitchers decline with the team, that means that the Dodgers & Giants were the ones to experience the best increases.

That last sentence might not have be correct. What I mean is the Dodgers + Giants = the best increase. It could be the case that one of those teams was so dominant in that area, like the Yankees and hitting, that they alone account for a huge increase. But, it is the case that the no longer playing in NY teams do combine for a bigger pitching increase than the currently playing there ones.

[mainsr]

I think Lee's good work shows that this is a canard. It's a fiction of the New York media. There have been flameouts all over the place. Ernie Broglio played better in SL than Chicago, as I recall, and nobody talked about how tough a place Chicago is. Of all the things people said about Russ Ortiz, I don't recall hearing anything about Phoenix being an impossible place to play.