Bernie Williams - great year, good player - Page 3

Craig S. · 08-23-2002, 07:40 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Fuzzy Bear
Bernie Williams is a guy who has, over time, won me over. He's grown steadily, like Dwight Evans, only better, and is clearly a viable HOF candidate. There are more than one HOF outfielder who didn't do in an entire career what Bernie Williams has done to date, granting that the previous statement alone isn't a ticket to Cooperstown, in and of itself. I am honestly surprised to see the criticism of Bernie at the level it is in this post (maybe I'm missing something). I don't think it's deserved. Bernie is the best CF in the AL right now, and has been since 2000. He's on a HOF course, and he's a great player; a broad-based player that often gets jilted in award and HOF voting (although his .308 BA will help prevent some of that).

I like Bernie, but I'd disagree about him being great. Yes, he's put together a steady career, but the Hall of Fame is reserved for superstars, players who dominate over a period of time. Only once has Williams finished in the Top 10 for MVP voting, and his batting title in 1998 is the only time he ever led the league in any offensive category. He is also hindered by his .158 World Series batting average, and a .266 clip for the postseason.

This thread is well-titled. Definitely an above average player, but not a great one.

Max Power · 08-23-2002, 07:52 AM

Pretty interesting how close Bernie Williams and Fuzzy's fav Mo Vaughn are:

Code:



1991-2001

OWP                             OWP    
1    Barry Bonds                .824   
2    Frank Thomas               .773   
3    Mark McGwire               .768   
4    Edgar Martinez             .749   
5    Jeff Bagwell               .735   
6    Gary Sheffield             .726   
7    Mike Piazza                .721   
8    Jim Thome                  .715   
9    Ken Griffey Jr.            .704   
10   Larry Walker               .685   
11   Rafael Palmeiro            .679   
12   Albert Belle               .672   
13   Tony Gwynn                 .668   
14   John Olerud                .662   
15   Will Clark                 .662   
16   Tim Salmon                 .654   
17   Craig Biggio               .654   
18   Mo Vaughn                  .653   
19   Bernie Williams            .652   
20   Barry Larkin               .651   
21   Roberto Alomar             .649   
22   Rickey Henderson           .643   
23   David Justice              .642   
24   Fred McGriff               .636   
25   Juan Gonzalez              .632

VNV Nation · 08-23-2002, 08:36 AM

IF anything, Fuzzy is being conservative. Bernie was just as good as Ken Griffey Jr. in 1998-99, when Griffey hit 104 homers and drove in 280 runs.

He's Earl Averill, Larry Doby, Reggie Smith, Fred Lynn, except that he's probably going to have a much better career than any of them.

satchel · 08-23-2002, 10:49 AM

I don't know how you all feel about similarity scores, but www.baseball-reference.com lists Bernie Williams's 10 most similar players (through 2001) as

Code:

1.  Pedro Guerrero (916) 
2.  Wally Berger (910) 
3.  Luis Gonzalez (910) 
4.  Ken Williams (908) 
5.  Jeff Heath (902) 
6.  Ray Lankford (900) 
7.  Larry Doby (896) 
8.  Jackie Jensen (896) 
9.  Bob Meusel (887) 
10. Tony Oliva (883)

Only Doby is in the Hall. LuGo's hallworthiness may be a debatable topic for another thread. I'd be surprised if anyone thinks Lankford is hallworthy. Of course, Bernie's 33, and gets to add 2002 to his resume as well as perhaps several more seasons at or near that level. If he strings together 3-4 more seasons like 2002, his case improves dramatically.

Also, HOF voters like MVP votes and gold gloves, and I think Bernie may have a hard time racking up more of either. He's got the championships, a point in his favor, and no one can really argue he wasn't an integral part of those.

VNV Nation · 08-23-2002, 12:23 PM

I don't think the sim scores here are really accurate. Many of these players (Guerrero, Heath, Williams, Meusel) are left fielders/corner players with little defensive value, and Bernie is in midcareer.

Fuzzy Bear · 08-27-2002, 06:55 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Max Power
Pretty interesting how close Bernie Williams and Fuzzy's fav Mo Vaughn are:

Code:

1991-2001 OWP OWP 1 Barry Bonds .824 18 Mo Vaughn .653 19 Bernie Williams .652

Sometimes, it's not the location your at, but the direction in which you're traveling!

pwdennis · 08-31-2002, 04:51 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by VNV Nation
I don't think the sim scores here are really accurate. Many of these players (Guerrero, Heath, Williams, Meusel) are left fielders/corner players with little defensive value, and Bernie is in midcareer.

I agree - also Oliva was a player whose bad knees prevented him form putting together a HOF career (the actual career he had is very very close to being HOF) and Jackie Jenson was on his way to putting together HOF numbers when his fear of flying did him in.

Barring injuries, Bernie will put together several more solid years and be surrounded by a better group of players

Duque · 09-07-2002, 02:00 PM

Williams's power also looks to be fading over the past couple of years. If he sticks to being a high BA, high OBP guy that's fine, as long as he hits in front of Giambi and not behind him.

moose · 09-07-2002, 02:20 PM

i've always felt that the yanks live and die by bernie.

Fuzzy Bear · 09-09-2002, 06:46 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by satchel
Perhaps he should hit ahead of Giambi, rather than behind him.

I wouldn't do that. Bernie is a broad based player. He can drive in runs and hit for power, but he also has good leadoff man skills, and Bernie is a likely candidate to lead off the SECOND inning.

spitball · 09-09-2002, 06:54 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Fuzzy Bear
I wouldn't do that. Bernie is a broad based player. He can drive in runs and hit for power, but he also has good leadoff man skills, and Bernie is a likely candidate to lead off the SECOND inning.

I second that emotion.

satchel · 09-10-2002, 10:13 AM

Fuzzy and Spit - (ugh) - okay, that's a fair point. But consider that another of Bernie's great assets is his speed, which, I think most would agree, compensates for his relatively poor baseball instincts. When he gets a chance to get up to speed he can go from first to third as well as anyone in the league. And he can stretch singles into doubles, even though he cannot steal a base.

How often can he do those things with Giambi walking >100 times a season ahead of him? It's just a thought. I wonder which is more likely - Soriano, Jeter, and Giambi going in order in the first so Bernie leads off the second, or Giambi clogging up the basepath in front of Bernie once or twice a game?

spitball · 09-10-2002, 11:21 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by satchel
Fuzzy and Spit - (ugh) - okay, that's a fair point. But consider that another of Bernie's great assets is his speed, which, I think most would agree, compensates for his relatively poor baseball instincts. When he gets a chance to get up to speed he can go from first to third as well as anyone in the league. And he can stretch singles into doubles, even though he cannot steal a base.

How often can he do those things with Giambi walking >100 times a season ahead of him? It's just a thought. I wonder which is more likely - Soriano, Jeter, and Giambi going in order in the first so Bernie leads off the second, or Giambi clogging up the basepath in front of Bernie once or twice a game?

1st off, putting Fuzzy and Spit together is a definite UGH. Bad visual.
2ndly, good point about the speed. I think I'm just a little amused at the nit-picking at a guy who's leading the league in hitting and may not be the best center fielder in the game but is one of the best. I think Yankee fans are just a tad spoiled from all the winning. I wish I was that spoiled.

satchel · 09-11-2002, 01:38 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by spitball
I think I'm just a little amused at the nit-picking at a guy who's leading the league in hitting and may not be the best center fielder in the game but is one of the best. I think Yankee fans are just a tad spoiled from all the winning. I wish I was that spoiled.

No doubt - the amount of traffic this thread has generated surprised me a little, and I think it's largely due to the fact that Bernie plays for the Yankees, so he gets that extra attention, both good and bad. I often find myself defending him against charges that he doesn't play hard or have his head in the game, common complaints from some Yankees fans when I don't think they should really ask for any more from him. But when I'm watching a game in my living room ... well, once or twice I've let a mean comment slip out.

08-23-2002, 10:49 AM	#34
satchel NetShrine All-Century Team Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Boston, MA Posts: 2,601	I don't know how you all feel about similarity scores, but www.baseball-reference.com lists Bernie Williams's 10 most similar players (through 2001) as Code: 1. Pedro Guerrero (916) 2. Wally Berger (910) 3. Luis Gonzalez (910) 4. Ken Williams (908) 5. Jeff Heath (902) 6. Ray Lankford (900) 7. Larry Doby (896) 8. Jackie Jensen (896) 9. Bob Meusel (887) 10. Tony Oliva (883) Only Doby is in the Hall. LuGo's hallworthiness may be a debatable topic for another thread. I'd be surprised if anyone thinks Lankford is hallworthy. Of course, Bernie's 33, and gets to add 2002 to his resume as well as perhaps several more seasons at or near that level. If he strings together 3-4 more seasons like 2002, his case improves dramatically. Also, HOF voters like MVP votes and gold gloves, and I think Bernie may have a hard time racking up more of either. He's got the championships, a point in his favor, and no one can really argue he wasn't an integral part of those. __________________ Rare mold, old vomit - An anagram rejected by Tom Riddle

09-07-2002, 02:00 PM	#38
Duque NetShrine's Desperado Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Southern CA Posts: 2,638	Williams's power also looks to be fading over the past couple of years. If he sticks to being a high BA, high OBP guy that's fine, as long as he hits in front of Giambi and not behind him. __________________ Bad Andy It's such a fine line between stupid and clever.

09-10-2002, 10:13 AM	#42
satchel NetShrine All-Century Team Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Boston, MA Posts: 2,601	Fuzzy and Spit - (ugh) - okay, that's a fair point. But consider that another of Bernie's great assets is his speed, which, I think most would agree, compensates for his relatively poor baseball instincts. When he gets a chance to get up to speed he can go from first to third as well as anyone in the league. And he can stretch singles into doubles, even though he cannot steal a base. How often can he do those things with Giambi walking >100 times a season ahead of him? It's just a thought. I wonder which is more likely - Soriano, Jeter, and Giambi going in order in the first so Bernie leads off the second, or Giambi clogging up the basepath in front of Bernie once or twice a game? __________________ Rare mold, old vomit - An anagram rejected by Tom Riddle

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08-23-2002, 08:36 AM	#33
VNV Nation Membership Suspended 11/19/02 Join Date: May 2002 Location: VNV Nation Posts: 2,952	IF anything, Fuzzy is being conservative. Bernie was just as good as Ken Griffey Jr. in 1998-99, when Griffey hit 104 homers and drove in 280 runs. He's Earl Averill, Larry Doby, Reggie Smith, Fred Lynn, except that he's probably going to have a much better career than any of them.

08-23-2002, 12:23 PM	#35
VNV Nation Membership Suspended 11/19/02 Join Date: May 2002 Location: VNV Nation Posts: 2,952	I don't think the sim scores here are really accurate. Many of these players (Guerrero, Heath, Williams, Meusel) are left fielders/corner players with little defensive value, and Bernie is in midcareer.

09-07-2002, 02:20 PM	#39
moose Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Socs Posts: 3,400	i've always felt that the yanks live and die by bernie.

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