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Old 12-26-2001, 04:28 AM   #31
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Originally posted by Xanadu Dragon
That's a big difference - - and, it's Gibson that was supposed to be the headhunter.
Gibson, unlike Roger and Pedro, didn't play by DH rules, so he stood up to the opposing pitcher when it was his turn to bat. That's one point I've always heard from NL fans.
 
Old 12-26-2001, 04:51 AM   #32
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Yog,
Well thought out and said, there is nothing more that could be added in respect to the Pedro vs. Clemens comments.
That such things still exist is unfortunate, but they do.
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Old 12-26-2001, 06:01 AM   #33
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Yog,
Well thought out and said, there is nothing more that could be added in respect to the Pedro vs. Clemens comments.
That such things still exist is unfortunate, but they do.
It happens and I'm glad f/your support. I just wanted to be crystal clear that I get along w/Hispanics very well. I don't care if you're one thing or another, I couldn't care less. Martin Luther King, Jr., one of my various idols said to look at the content of one's character, not just the color of one's skin. If someone does just this, like the old wives' tale, neither look that gift horse in the mouth, nor doubt if it's really a gift.

I won't criticize sweaver and/or anyone else here in any way, just thought I'd make myself clear, that's all.
 
Old 12-26-2001, 09:19 AM   #34
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I knew I'd take some heat for saying what I said, but it had to be out there.

Wasn't targeting anyone, certainly not you, Yogi. But our opinions, for better or worse, are shaped by those around us, and we all have our own prejudices. We are all prejudiced, in one way or another, whether we recognize it or not.

An old Lenny Bruce routine centered on prejudice, and his opinion was that we are prejudiced against what we consider ugly. He started with a black-white thing (this was the late 50s early 60s) and said, "Now who would you rather marry, Kate Smith or Lena Horne?" Brings it home a bit.

I am asking in a holiday season and time of reflection that we look on our fellow man in a different light. Put aside considerations of "my team-their team" or black/white or whatever, and look, as the prophet said, at the content of their character.

Besides, if I weighed 165 pounds, I would be a little shady on whether I was throwing at a guy's head too.
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Old 12-26-2001, 02:26 PM   #35
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Originally posted by sweaver
Now who would you rather marry, Kate Smith or Lena Horne

Depends on the whether the axiom you subscribe to is "once you go black, you never go back" or "the more the cushion, the better the pushin'."

Sorry, couldn't help myself on that one.
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Old 12-26-2001, 03:16 PM   #36
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Originally posted by sweaver
I knew I'd take some heat for saying what I said, but it had to be out there.

Wasn't targeting anyone, certainly not you, Yogi. But our opinions, for better or worse, are shaped by those around us, and we all have our own prejudices. We are all prejudiced, in one way or another, whether we recognize it or not.

An old Lenny Bruce routine centered on prejudice, and his opinion was that we are prejudiced against what we consider ugly. He started with a black-white thing (this was the late 50s early 60s) and said, "Now who would you rather marry, Kate Smith or Lena Horne?" Brings it home a bit.

I am asking in a holiday season and time of reflection that we look on our fellow man in a different light. Put aside considerations of "my team-their team" or black/white or whatever, and look, as the prophet said, at the content of their character.

Besides, if I weighed 165 pounds, I would be a little shady on whether I was throwing at a guy's head too.
I actually wasn't giving you heat. I also wasn't going after you personally, which is why I'm glad after nightal's followup, I said I wasn't blaming yourself and/or anyone else here. I just felt that what Pedro does equates to what Roger does, so anything outside of just baseball wouldn't figure into the equation. I'm glad you took this the way intended, since I respect you very much personally and as a baseball fan just like the others here.

As to my own feelings on our surroundings and Hispanics, let me just say this. NYC presently has 800,000 Puerto Ricans and 600,000 Dominicans, of which Manny Ramirez is one (at least he was born here). The past 20+ years, I've been eating lots of mondongo soup, rice & beans, fried chicken from the Dominican restaurants, as well as their mango, papaya, mamey and other fruit shakes. I've eaten their food and had a few beers and good laughs with Hispanics. Same w/South Americans, Mexicans, you name it.

Yes, we are all prejudiced. I think it was even Rev. Jesse Jackson who'd once said (after one of his Presidential campaigns) that if he saw two black guys late at night, he'd wondered if they were going to rob him. People will have feelings based upon judging the book by its cover.

As to Kate Smith (who'd sung God Bless America and others), she's white and Lena Horne is black. Lena looked mighty good for someone of her age and I can't say I'd marry one over the other. Now if you put Tina Turner in the picture, it'd be no contest. As to who one marries, that's not just black/white (literally or figuratively). If I took other singers like Beyonce Knowles of Destiny's Child or Gwen Stefani of No Doubt, I think people could see fine qualities in both individuals. If Britney Spears vs Naomi Campbell, that's different, since you've got a post-teen "idol" who behaves in a very sexual manner (some would say "less than ladylike") since she was 17 (she's 20 now), vs a megamodel who's got anger control problems. Lots there if you break it down to the individual, not just their looks.

As to a 165-lber being shady on the bean, I wouldn't blame you. What I would blame you for is beaning somebody. Like that TV show Barretta's song said, if you can't do the time, don't do the crime. If you can't take responsibility f/the bean, especially if you've been considered the best control pitcher in MLB a few years in a row, I say don't play any chin music from now on. Once someone who owns you gets plunked (and Mike Piazza is certainly known as a nice guy also), people will think you're guilty as sin and the plunk was purposely thrown. That presumption to me shouldn't change from person A to person B, regardless of their size, race, hue or anything else. That's all I'm saying. You take care, alrighty?
 
Old 12-26-2001, 03:42 PM   #37
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Pedro should not have to apologize for attempting to control the inside corner, any more than Clemens should. Hitters today hang out over the plate with all that plastic body armor (which should be outlawed) anyway.

I don't blame either pitcher for that, although Clemens throwing the bat was a little out of line.

Now, Juan Marichal hitting John Roseboro over the head with a bat, that was going too far.
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Old 12-26-2001, 04:10 PM   #38
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Originally posted by sweaver
Pedro should not have to apologize for attempting to control the inside corner, any more than Clemens should. Hitters today hang out over the plate with all that plastic body armor (which should be outlawed) anyway.

I don't blame either pitcher for that, although Clemens throwing the bat was a little out of line.

Now, Juan Marichal hitting John Roseboro over the head with a bat, that was going too far.
I never felt that Pedro or anyone else needed to apologize f/throwing inside. Even Piazza I remember said he'd respected the inside pitch. Frankly, I've read that Pedro is great because he throws inside. If that works, fine. For both control pitchers or anyone else, I figure there's a difference between a brushback pitch or high and inside where the person can at least back up or jump out of the way, and something coming 95mph at you straight for the head. For either pitcher or anyone else, you'd better have a doggoned good excuse why that wasn't intentionally done. Saying "it just happened to slip" will get you quite a few and .

I'll respond to the plastic armor in a separate thread so please click here. As to Mr. Batman, that's another story which I have mixed feelings about but for the sake of peace & sanity, I'll beg off against responding to, since this would take up way too much bandwidth.
 
Old 12-26-2001, 08:03 PM   #39
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No pitcher should have to apologize for working inside. I think it is generally pretty clear when one is working inside and when one is working "way" inside. Of course there will be times when it isn't so clear, but so what. I also dont have a problem with the batter's body armor. The stike zone is big enough when called correctly to get people out. If sluggers want to dive into pitches, the umpires can call it. I'd rather see Greg Maddux work the inside corner than the outside 6 inches.
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Old 12-27-2001, 03:00 PM   #40
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Carl Everett comes to mind, of course.

But guys like Antonio Alfonseca and Jose Mesa, with their ridiculous displays after they strike someone out, also rub me the wrong way. They're the Martin Grammaticas of baseball.
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Old 12-27-2001, 05:04 PM   #41
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Jose Lima needs to be mentioned then.
Carlos Perez was INFAMOUS for it, but now he's stuck in AAA, so we may not have to worry about him much.
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Old 12-28-2001, 08:41 AM   #42
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I guess I always have hated some of the mid-80's Mets because of their arrogance and swagger. It serves them right they only got one WS.

Actually, the guy I hate the most in baseball now isn't a player, it's a manager. LaRussa. He's almost single-handedly destroyed ptiching around the big leagues and slowed games down to a crawl by his asinine insistance to always go for a platoon advantage, leading to bloated 12-man pitching staffs creating an artificial pitching shortage. Feh on him!
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Old 12-29-2001, 07:29 PM   #43
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We're probably going here, but if we're going to throw non-players into the list, I suppose someone should mention the non-playing career of Frisch on the Veterans Committee. The failures of the committee during the years when he was arguably the driving force are well documented.
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Old 12-29-2001, 08:47 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally posted by SmedIndy
I guess I always have hated some of the mid-80's Mets because of their arrogance and swagger. It serves them right they only got one WS.

Actually, the guy I hate the most in baseball now isn't a player, it's a manager. LaRussa. He's almost single-handedly destroyed ptiching around the big leagues and slowed games down to a crawl by his asinine insistance to always go for a platoon advantage, leading to bloated 12-man pitching staffs creating an artificial pitching shortage. Feh on him!

Arrogance is bad for me, but I don't mind swagger. If you can back it up, that shows character IMO. Although, I don't recommend that you show it in the first place.
LaRussa is a great manager in my opinion. However, the way he uses pitchers REALLY, REALLY, REALLY, etc. annoys me. Thanks to LaRussa, relievers don't throw 100 innings out of the pen anymore, unless you're Scott Sullivan.
The way he uses SO, SO, SO, etc. many guys for just one batter is *expletive deleted* ridiculous. LaRussa doesn't have relief pitching, it's Rolaids pitching because seeing all these pitching changes will make your stomach sick.
There's also a really bad thing about him carrying 12 pitchers...Stubby Clapp has to stay in AAA. And we can't have that, now, can we?
LaRussa should just use Steve Kline, Dave Veres, and Jason Isringhausen out of the bullpen. Kline has a rubber arm, Veres is good, and Izzy might be, and those are really all you need. Not really, of course, but I think any team should be able to survive on a 5-man bullpen, even in the NL, and even on Tony LaRussa's teams.
Then again, your mileage may vary.
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