Meet The New Guard - Same As The Old Guard?

[Crash Course]

Some of the comments in this thread: http://www.netshrine.com/vbulletin2/...ad.php?t=14188

have been resonating in my head for a while now. Esp. the ones that claim that Ringolsby is just a member of the "old guard" (or something like that) and he needs to take care of his old buddies, etc.

But, what about the "new guard" and their new buddies, don't they just serve each other as well (assuming that serving really does go on)?

In his recent SI piece, Michael Lewis sung the praises for baseballprimer, gammons, neyer, and baseball prospectus. In fact, right on the top of BP 2004, on the front cover, is a quote by Michael Lewis that says something like "Any baseball executive who does not read BP should be fired!"

Related, many times, at BP, you will hear wonderful things about Lewis/Beane/Moneyball, etc.

How is the relationship between the old guard and their buddies different than the new guard and their buddies? To me, it appears that the new guard does just what they accuse the old guard of doing - - - looking out for each other. No?

[nyy26wc]

Originally Posted by Crash Course

But, what about the "new guard" and their new buddies, don't they just serve each other as well (assuming that serving really does go on)?

I don't think so.

The new guard is too divided amongst itself.

Just a couple of examples, but there's certainly more--

RCAA or CRAP or VORP or EQA
OPS or what is the exact number to multiply OBA by before adding it to SLG

[Makofan]

Originally Posted by Crash Course

Some of the comments in this thread: http://www.netshrine.com/vbulletin2/...ad.php?t=14188

have been resonating in my head for a while now. Esp. the ones that claim that Ringolsby is just a member of the "old guard" (or something like that) and he needs to take care of his old buddies, etc.

But, what about the "new guard" and their new buddies, don't they just serve each other as well (assuming that serving really does go on)?

In his recent SI piece, Michael Lewis sung the praises for baseballprimer, gammons, neyer, and baseball prospectus. In fact, right on the top of BP 2004, on the front cover, is a quote by Michael Lewis that says something like "Any baseball executive who does not read BP should be fired!"

Related, many times, at BP, you will hear wonderful things about Lewis/Beane/Moneyball, etc.

How is the relationship between the old guard and their buddies different than the new guard and their buddies? To me, it appears that the new guard does just what they accuse the old guard of doing - - - looking out for each other. No?

Steve

I have only been reading this forum for a month, but it sometimes seems to me you created this forum as a place to bash Billy Beane.

[huskerdru]

Originally Posted by nyy26wc

I don't think so.

The new guard is too divided amongst itself.

Just a couple of examples, but there's certainly more--

RCAA or CRAP or VORP or EQA
OPS or what is the exact number to multiply OBA by before adding it to SLG

But those are divisions over method and details, not over philosophy...namely that, in predicting player performance, using statistical methods as a primary tool produces great, often counterintuitive, results - generally better, more economical, results than focusing entirely or primarily on traditional, subjective scouting.

I don't think you'd find much disagreement on this from Beane to Epstein to Depodesta to Davenport to Sheehan to Neyer, and so forth.

Steve, you raise an interesting and fair question. My response (as you may have guessed ) is that, yeah, the "new guard" appear to be looking out for each other, just the "old guard do." It's the motivation for this behavior that marks the difference. I'd argue that the newbies motivation in sticking together is based on a shared vision (notwithstanding differences in tactics) for player evaluation, a shared appreciation of the power of statistical analysis, and so forth. They clearly want to build as much momentum for this school of thought for various reasons - ranging from pure idealism to livelihood to profit (which, in itself, is not bad).

My argument is that the "old guard" (or some members of it) have been circling the wagons largely because this new school of thought on player evaluation threatens their preeminence in the sport, contradicts the long-standing conventional wisdom on scouting players, and has potential (for execs) to impose increased pressure from ownership and other front office members to change approach. Humans tend to be resistant to change, and the longer the status quo has been in place, the more resistant we generally become. The "new guard" focus on statistics and performance economics threatens the fundamental worldview of the "old guard" regarding how to go about building a team and succeed in this sport.

[Skip]

Originally Posted by Makofan

Steve

I have only been reading this forum for a month, but it sometimes seems to me you created this forum as a place to bash Billy Beane.

Bad timing Mako - - it's only been that way for about a month. Soon the season will start and we can move on from this stuff.

Regarding old/new guard - Of course people with like opinions will band together. This is another silly discussion. The difference is more in the perception of outsiders v. insiders, just as it is with minorities v. the majority, peasants v. the nobility, etc. 'We' complain about the old guard because 'we' disagree with it and 'we' view them as holding onto a position that 'we' want.

[sweaver]

Oui!

I think the "new guard-old guard" stuff about writers started in New York, when a new group led by Dick Young emerged. Some of the old writers called them "chipmunks" due to their constant chattering. Eventually, their chatty, look-into-the-private-lives type of sportswriting emerged as the dominant form.

[Crash Course]

Originally Posted by Makofan

Steve

I have only been reading this forum for a month, but it sometimes seems to me you created this forum as a place to bash Billy Beane.

Did I mention that when this forum started?

http://www.netshrine.com/vbulletin2/showthread.php?t=4