2003 Marlins Juiced?

Crash Course · 11-23-2005, 10:27 AM

Look at some of the HR totals for some of the players on that team that season - then see how they did last year, once testing began. Did Pudge get them on the juice?

captain_napalm · 11-23-2005, 12:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crash Course

Look at some of the HR totals for some of the players on that team that season - then see how they did last year, once testing began. Did Pudge get them on the juice?

Code:

YEAR     HR  HR%      RBI      BB      SO
2000    160  2.90     691     540    1184    
2001    166  3.00     713     470    1145     
2002    146  2.66     653     595    1130      
2003    157  2.86     709     515     978     
2004    148  2.70     677     499     968

Crash Course · 11-23-2005, 02:14 PM

And, what about 2005?

captain_napalm · 11-23-2005, 02:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crash Course

And, what about 2005?

128...

So how do you explain 1999-2000 or 2001-2002?

Crash Course · 11-23-2005, 04:27 PM

Doesn't matter.
I'm looking at guys like Lowell, Pudge, and Alex Gonzalez, 2003 vs. 2005. The numbers are shocking.

captain_napalm · 11-24-2005, 12:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crash Course

Doesn't matter.
I'm looking at guys like Lowell, Pudge, and Alex Gonzalez, 2003 vs. 2005. The numbers are shocking.

Am I missing something? 1999-2005

Lowell: 12 -> 22 -> 18 -> 24 -> 32 -> 27 -> 8

Pudge: 27 -> 25 -> 19 -> 19 -> 16 -> 19 -> 14

A Gon: 14 -> 7 -> 9 -> 2 -> 18 -> 23 -> 5

How do you explain Wade Boggs' 8 -> 24 -> 5 (1986-88?)

Davey Johnson's 5 -> 43 -> 15 (1972-74)

Bob Hamelin 24 -> 7 -> 9 (1994-96)

Crash Course · 11-24-2005, 09:17 AM

Did Boggs, Johnson, and Hamelin all play for the same team? Did they spike when a suspected juicer joined their team? Did they drop the year after dope testing?

captain_napalm · 11-24-2005, 10:31 AM

No, but if you look around, you can find 3 year (or more) spans where numbers fluctuate. If it happened before dope testing, why wouldn't it happen after dope testing?

So, was Lowell off the juice when he faced righties?

What about Jeff Cirillo? He's seemingly lost his way; was he on the juice? Howard Johnson?

Was Tino juicing in 1997? Was Mattingly juicing? He never showed power in the minors.

KCBOOMER · 11-24-2005, 10:46 PM

This is silly. There has been no evidence presented that the Marlins were using juice so why bring it up?? For that matter nothing has been presented against Pudge other than speculation.

Crash Course · 11-25-2005, 10:33 AM

I dunno, Canseco has been pretty good so far - in terms of people named in his book proving to be true.

Jayhawk Bob · 11-25-2005, 04:37 PM

A similar argument could be made about the '04 Yankees. They have a couple of known/heavily suspected juicers on the team, and in the first year of penalties for positive testing they saw significant SLG drops in 7 of the 10 position players who returned in '05. (Posada - 51 pts, Jeter - 21 pts, Matsui - 26 pts, Williams - 68 pts, Sheffield - 22 pts, Sierra - 85 pts, Flaherty - 213 pts)

Or how about the '04 Giants? They had perhaps the most highly suspected juicer alive, and saw large SLG drops in all 9 of the position players with more than a handful at ABs who returned in '05. (Snow - 164 pts, Durham - 55 pts, Alfonzo - 23 pts, Deivi Cruz - 34 pts, Bonds - 145 pts, Grissom - 165 pts, Tucker - 40 pts, Feliz - 63 pts, Torrealba - 63 pts)

Now, I don't believe for a minute that there was widespread juicing on the 2004 New York Yankees or San Francisco Giants, but as long as we're throwing around reckless speculation, let's be comprehensive.

Crash Course · 11-25-2005, 08:45 PM

Is a 20 point drop in SLG% the same as going from 23 HRs to 5?

captain_napalm · 11-25-2005, 10:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crash Course

Is a 20 point drop in SLG% the same as going from 23 HRs to 5?

I would think more so.

Jayhawk Bob · 11-25-2005, 10:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crash Course

Is a 20 point drop in SLG% the same as going from 23 HRs to 5?

Of course not, but that's a comparison of the largest difference in your measurement with the smallest difference in mine. Not exactly apples-to-apples, now is it?

Apples-to-apples would be this: Of the Marlins from '03 who were still on the club in '05 and dropped in SLG, the average drop in their slugging percentage was 67 points. The Yankees who dropped from '04 to '05 had an average drop of 69 points, and the Giants' average drop was 84 points.

Or how about this: The Marlins' team SLG dropped just 12 points from '03 to '05. In the same time period, nearly half the clubs in baseball - 13 to be exact - had larger drops in their team SLG, some by over 40 points.

Were all of those clubs juiced en masse? I don't think so, and I fail to see anything out of the ordinary in the Marlins' performance.

Crash Course · 11-26-2005, 02:12 PM

FYI, I decided to do an essay on this one

http://www.netshrine.com/2003Marlins.html

11-23-2005, 10:27 AM	#1
Crash Course NetShrine Creator & Curator Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: NetShrine WHQ Posts: 10,070	2003 Marlins Juiced? Look at some of the HR totals for some of the players on that team that season - then see how they did last year, once testing began. Did Pudge get them on the juice? __________________ Steve, Forum Admin Hit Grass, Win Salad Man, this is baseball. You gotta stop thinking. Just have fun. - Benny "The Jet" Rodriguez, in The Sandlot I've been going to games since August 8, 1973....and on August 22, 2004, finally, a foul ball came my way. I had to reach for it, and it deflected off the tip of my right index finger. Shoot, if I was only 4 inches taller! Have you read The Baseball Same Game?

11-23-2005, 02:14 PM	#3
Crash Course NetShrine Creator & Curator Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: NetShrine WHQ Posts: 10,070	And, what about 2005? __________________ Steve, Forum Admin Hit Grass, Win Salad Man, this is baseball. You gotta stop thinking. Just have fun. - Benny "The Jet" Rodriguez, in The Sandlot I've been going to games since August 8, 1973....and on August 22, 2004, finally, a foul ball came my way. I had to reach for it, and it deflected off the tip of my right index finger. Shoot, if I was only 4 inches taller! Have you read The Baseball Same Game?

11-23-2005, 04:27 PM	#5
Crash Course NetShrine Creator & Curator Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: NetShrine WHQ Posts: 10,070	Doesn't matter. I'm looking at guys like Lowell, Pudge, and Alex Gonzalez, 2003 vs. 2005. The numbers are shocking. __________________ Steve, Forum Admin Hit Grass, Win Salad Man, this is baseball. You gotta stop thinking. Just have fun. - Benny "The Jet" Rodriguez, in The Sandlot I've been going to games since August 8, 1973....and on August 22, 2004, finally, a foul ball came my way. I had to reach for it, and it deflected off the tip of my right index finger. Shoot, if I was only 4 inches taller! Have you read The Baseball Same Game?

11-24-2005, 09:17 AM	#7
Crash Course NetShrine Creator & Curator Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: NetShrine WHQ Posts: 10,070	Did Boggs, Johnson, and Hamelin all play for the same team? Did they spike when a suspected juicer joined their team? Did they drop the year after dope testing? __________________ Steve, Forum Admin Hit Grass, Win Salad Man, this is baseball. You gotta stop thinking. Just have fun. - Benny "The Jet" Rodriguez, in The Sandlot I've been going to games since August 8, 1973....and on August 22, 2004, finally, a foul ball came my way. I had to reach for it, and it deflected off the tip of my right index finger. Shoot, if I was only 4 inches taller! Have you read The Baseball Same Game?

11-24-2005, 10:31 AM	#8
captain_napalm NetShrine All-Century Team Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: ny Posts: 1,611	No, but if you look around, you can find 3 year (or more) spans where numbers fluctuate. If it happened before dope testing, why wouldn't it happen after dope testing? So, was Lowell off the juice when he faced righties? What about Jeff Cirillo? He's seemingly lost his way; was he on the juice? Howard Johnson? Was Tino juicing in 1997? Was Mattingly juicing? He never showed power in the minors. __________________ "Cheating is baseball's oldest profession. No other game is so rich in skullduggery, so suited to it or so proud of it." - Thomas Boswell

11-24-2005, 10:46 PM	#9
KCBOOMER NetShrine All-Century Team Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Home of the T-Bones Posts: 11,116	This is silly. There has been no evidence presented that the Marlins were using juice so why bring it up?? For that matter nothing has been presented against Pudge other than speculation. __________________ KCBOOMER *Buck O'Neil: The Monarch of Baseball*

11-25-2005, 10:33 AM	#10
Crash Course NetShrine Creator & Curator Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: NetShrine WHQ Posts: 10,070	I dunno, Canseco has been pretty good so far - in terms of people named in his book proving to be true. __________________ Steve, Forum Admin Hit Grass, Win Salad Man, this is baseball. You gotta stop thinking. Just have fun. - Benny "The Jet" Rodriguez, in The Sandlot I've been going to games since August 8, 1973....and on August 22, 2004, finally, a foul ball came my way. I had to reach for it, and it deflected off the tip of my right index finger. Shoot, if I was only 4 inches taller! Have you read The Baseball Same Game?

11-25-2005, 04:37 PM	#11
Jayhawk Bob NetShrine MVP Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 278	A similar argument could be made about the '04 Yankees. They have a couple of known/heavily suspected juicers on the team, and in the first year of penalties for positive testing they saw significant SLG drops in 7 of the 10 position players who returned in '05. (Posada - 51 pts, Jeter - 21 pts, Matsui - 26 pts, Williams - 68 pts, Sheffield - 22 pts, Sierra - 85 pts, Flaherty - 213 pts) Or how about the '04 Giants? They had perhaps the most highly suspected juicer alive, and saw large SLG drops in all 9 of the position players with more than a handful at ABs who returned in '05. (Snow - 164 pts, Durham - 55 pts, Alfonzo - 23 pts, Deivi Cruz - 34 pts, Bonds - 145 pts, Grissom - 165 pts, Tucker - 40 pts, Feliz - 63 pts, Torrealba - 63 pts) Now, I don't believe for a minute that there was widespread juicing on the 2004 New York Yankees or San Francisco Giants, but as long as we're throwing around reckless speculation, let's be comprehensive.

11-25-2005, 08:45 PM	#12
Crash Course NetShrine Creator & Curator Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: NetShrine WHQ Posts: 10,070	Is a 20 point drop in SLG% the same as going from 23 HRs to 5? __________________ Steve, Forum Admin Hit Grass, Win Salad Man, this is baseball. You gotta stop thinking. Just have fun. - Benny "The Jet" Rodriguez, in The Sandlot I've been going to games since August 8, 1973....and on August 22, 2004, finally, a foul ball came my way. I had to reach for it, and it deflected off the tip of my right index finger. Shoot, if I was only 4 inches taller! Have you read The Baseball Same Game?

11-26-2005, 02:12 PM	#15
Crash Course NetShrine Creator & Curator Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: NetShrine WHQ Posts: 10,070	FYI, I decided to do an essay on this one http://www.netshrine.com/2003Marlins.html __________________ Steve, Forum Admin Hit Grass, Win Salad Man, this is baseball. You gotta stop thinking. Just have fun. - Benny "The Jet" Rodriguez, in The Sandlot I've been going to games since August 8, 1973....and on August 22, 2004, finally, a foul ball came my way. I had to reach for it, and it deflected off the tip of my right index finger. Shoot, if I was only 4 inches taller! Have you read The Baseball Same Game?

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