I Just Can't Take It Anymore: The Mussina Thread

[moose]

Ever since the Mulder thread, I've been dying to do a Mussina thread, but I've tried to refrain. But tonight Moose gave up 6 doubles in a single inning, and I have finally reached a breaking point.

Let's quickly review a few notes from the beginning of the season:
1. you could make a strong case for mussina being a better pticher in 2001 than cy young winner clemens, if not the AL
2. you could make a strong case that if mussina continued on his pace, he would have a good case for the HOF
3. Several analysts thought of mussina as a likely cy young winner this year.

....

but moose has really struggled in 2002. what's worse, I don't get YES, so i cant watch him and try to understand why!

i've noticed that he (like all) has had a few disaster starts, but many times it's moose for 4, 5, 6 innings, and then the anti-moose for one inning, then he gets yanked.

Is he just getting old and tired? Is he secretly nursing an injury (will?)? am I just going crazy? are people just happy to see him struggle since he's a yankee?

maybe the worst part about it is getting games like the yanks-sox game of moose v. pedro, where moose matched pedro pitch for pitch (well, not quite, but he was damn close) -- we see the classic moose, but then he disappears...

someone throw me a bone here... it's killing me!

[Max Power]

Two notes on the big inning - - the 1st "double" was a fly that Bernie Williams should have caught - -- not the first time he's done that to Mussina this year, BTW. And, the A-rod HR was on a great pitch - he just went and got it.

I was a big Mussina fan from 1992-99, he was a mainstay on my roto-teams (backwhen I played).

To be honest, having the opportunity to watch him pitch more often the last two seasons in NY, well, there's something there that I just can't put my finger on - - - I know his numbers (H/IP, K/BB, ERA, W%) are good to great; but, I never feel going into a game that it's "a win" because he's starting.

Too many times, it seems he pitches just well/bad enough not to win. I know that's against the numbers - just a feel thing.

This year? Hey, it happens - guy has a Cy Young like season and the next he struggles - - maybe next year will be better?

[hmrsf]

Cheer up moose, moose droppings happen.

(You know your team is not going as well when you keep checking other teams scores. Needless to say I heard alot of that game.)

There are nights like that. Tough night all around.


Amended.....it got better.

[JamesI]

Moose wasn't pitching badly, the rangers were hitting him though. He's a good pitcher, and will turn things around. I still think he's got a shot at 20 wins this year barring a strike.

[padresfan19]

Just a bump in the road on the way to the HOF.

[VNV Nation]

I don't think Mussina's a Hall of Famer, but I wouldn't be too worried. Guys who don't throw 97 and are always around the plate will get smacked around now and then. Major League hitters do that.

[Max Power]

A trend?

Any season in which Mussina has had 3 or more shutouts, the next year, his ERA exploded. 1993. 1996. 2002.

What's that all about?

[moose]

Originally posted by Max Power
A trend?

Any season in which Mussina has had 3 or more shutouts, the next year, his ERA exploded. 1993. 1996. 2002.

What's that all about?

right... my worry is not that he got roughed up last night, my worry is that his ERA is over a point above his career ERA.

steve - as someone who watches, do you see anything this year (ERA = high 4's) that you didn't see last year (ERA = low 3s)?!

[ChrisCary]

Originally posted by Max Power
Two notes on the big inning - - the 1st "double" was a fly that Bernie Williams should have caught - -- not the first time he's done that to Mussina this year, BTW

The first of the six "doubles" he should have caught. Several of them he COULD have caught but in order to find out you have to try first.

Mussina seems to be overthinking a lot. It looks sometimes like he's aiming the ball

[KCBOOMER]

Originally posted by Max Power
To be honest, having the opportunity to watch him pitch more often the last two seasons in NY, well, there's something there that I just can't put my finger on - - - I know his numbers (H/IP, K/BB, ERA, W%) are good to great; but, I never feel going into a game that it's "a win" because he's starting.

I've often felt this is an overlooked aspect of our analysis of players. We get so wrapped up in the numbers we lose sight of did he win or not writing it off to "that's a team thing". In the short term I agree to that but over the long haul luck usually balances pretty well and it comes down to did you win or not.

This year Mussina has been fortunate to win as many as he has because of great run support. We all know that he has had years when he should have won more with proper run support. I think his career is going to be long enough (he's in his twelfth year now) that we can ignore luck and just look at wins and losses.

Having said all that, and despite all my anti-Mussina thread posts in the past I think he is one of the best pitchers in the game. He will reach 250+ victories for his career and easily make the HoF. He's not an HoFer yet but he is on pace to be so.

[Max Power]

Originally posted by moose
steve - as someone who watches, do you see anything this year (ERA = high 4's) that you didn't see last year (ERA = low 3s)?!

Could be a conditioning or pattern issue - basically, after his first 75 pitches in a game, he turns into Andy Hawkins.

Look at the numbers - it's terrible.

[Allard]

I'm not sure I believe in it, but you always hear people talk about pitching to the score. The Yankees offense is just nasty this year, and seemed feeble at times last year, so Mussina needed to pitch better last year to win. Is it possible that much like Clemens last year, Mussina wins whether he pitches well or not? I think the guy would still have 12 wins if his ERA were over 5, because of the run support he can count on every night. If Jeff Weaver can be 3-1 with an ERA of 8, why do you need to pitch lights out every time out there?

[poorme]

Allard--

I know this isn't the place, but that Tony Muser quote is just too funny. What an idiot. (Muser, not you)

[JamesI]

Mussina does have a reputation for pitching to the level of competition, at least he did as an Oriole. A good team he would beat 3-2 or 2-1 or something, while against a bad team, Mike would usually loose 6-7.

[Max Power]

He did pitch to the score in some of his wins - - -

DATE _OPP RESULT __IP ___H ___R __ER __HR __BB
May. 17 MIN W 13-12 5 9 7 7 0 2
Jul. 31 @TEX L 17-6 3 11 7 7 2 0
Apr. 25 @OAK L 6-2 5.2 7 6 6 2 3
Jun. 12 ARI L 9-5 5 10 6 6 2 0
May. 26 @BOS W 14-5 6 7 5 5 2 1
Jun. 18 @COL W 10-5 6 8 5 5 2 1
Jun. 28 NYM W 11-5 5 7 5 5 3 0