Best player no one has heard of.

nightal · 12-24-2001, 08:28 PM

My nominee is Vern (Buster) Stephens:

6 time top 10 American League MVP voting
8 time American League all-star
7 time top 10 American League total bases
7 time top 10 American League HR(1st once)
7 time top 10 American League RBI(1st 3 times)
4 time top 10 American League OPS
6 time top 10 American League xtra base hits

Shortstop range factor 4.55
Fielding % .962

Hall of Fame Black Ink (average HOF=27) Stephens-18
Hall of Fame Gray Ink (average HOF=144) Stephens-141
HOF standards (avg HOF=50) Stephens-38.5
HOF Monitor (avg HOF= >100) Stephens-72

wade in
al

timconnelly · 12-24-2001, 08:52 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by nightal
My nominee is Vern (Buster) Stephens:

6 time top 10 American League MVP voting
8 time American League all-star
7 time top 10 American League total bases
7 time top 10 American League HR(1st once)
7 time top 10 American League RBI(1st 3 times)
4 time top 10 American League OPS
6 time top 10 American League xtra base hits

wade in
al

Great Choice, nightal!!

timconnelly · 12-24-2001, 11:22 PM

My choice is Bert Blyleven.

Although, Blyleven is not unknown to us today, I think he will be unknown to fans 20 years from now. There are no good stories about him, nothing that stands out to distinguish him from other fine players.

He was a fine player for so very long and yet never had a break through season (or at least one he is recognized for; Lee's neutral wins and losses formula takes his 20-17 1973 season and shows he would have been 26-11 with just average support.

Blyleven struck out more batters than Tom Seaver but only led the league once. He is a player whose ability to be remembered is going to depend on getting into Cooperstown and I don't see it happening.

CubFan7125 · 12-25-2001, 01:12 AM

I thought of many possible answers to your post - but Bert's numbers speak for themselves.

- 287 wins
- 2 time world series champion(never melted down in the ALCS,like Roger)
- 2 time all-star
- 242 complete games(Roger, the active leader, has 116)
- 60 Shutouts(Roger, the active leader, has 45)
- 3701 K's & he didn't even get to face Russ Branyan
- 4970 innings(Roger, the active leader, has 3887)
- He possibly had the BEST CURVEBALL EVER.
- As for you break through theory, this man won 15 games 10 times. Using that logic, I suppose you keep Don Sutton out of the HOF.
- Career ERA of 3.31

As for your good stories argument it is pretty clear you never followed the Twins, Cleveland or the Pirates very close, since Blyleven is known as one of the best practical jokers in baseball history.

I could go on & on, but that would be pointless. For whatever reason certain players that spent the majority of their careers outside of major markets get pushed by the wayside until it becomes almost fashionable to call them underrated or forgotten about. The amazing thing was that there is another Twin pitcher who won nearly as many games as the "Dutchman" & is truly forgotten about as a player & who you could build a forgotten case around much easier than Bert.

Who am I talking about. Jim Kaat. He won 283 games & collected 16 Gold Gloves. Using your 20 year gauge(Kaat last played in 1983 for St. Louis) how many people remember him as a player or what he did? Not many.

TGwynn19 · 12-25-2001, 05:23 AM

My vote..Tim Raines

timconnelly · 12-25-2001, 06:48 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by CubFan7125
I thought of many possible answers to your post - but Bert's numbers speak for themselves.

As for your good stories argument it is pretty clear you never followed the Twins, Cleveland or the Pirates very close, since Blyleven is known as one of the best practical jokers in baseball history.

I could go on & on, but that would be pointless. For whatever reason certain players that spent the majority of their careers outside of major markets get pushed by the wayside until it becomes almost fashionable to call them underrated or forgotten about. The amazing thing was that there is another Twin pitcher who won nearly as many games as the "Dutchman" & is truly forgotten about as a player & who you could build a forgotten case around much easier than Bert.

I was in no way knocking Bert or saying that he shouldn't go into the Hall. I was saying he is a grade A candidate to be completely forgotten in no time. Perhaps I am completely wrong about that.

You listed some numbers that I was unaware of: 60 career shutouts is an awesome total that would certainly make me feel his is deserving of Cooperstown.

And yes, I agree that Jim Kaat would have been a better choice than Bert since he didn't have all the strikeouts.

Skip · 12-25-2001, 07:13 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by TGwynn19
My vote..Tim Raines

Tim Raines is the first name that jumped into my mind too. An extremely good and long career without ever breaking out into the mainstream consciousness.

Xanadu Dragon · 12-25-2001, 11:47 AM

There's a long list of them - - - from Henry Larkin to Ken Singleton................

CubFan7125 · 12-25-2001, 01:00 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by timconnelly
I was in no way knocking Bert or saying that he shouldn't go into the Hall. I was saying he is a grade A candidate to be completely forgotten in no time. Perhaps I am completely wrong about that.

I know you were not knocking Bert, I was just offering the counter-point to your point. That's what makes debate so much fun.

sweaver · 12-25-2001, 01:17 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Xanadu Dragon
There's a long list of them - - - from Henry Larkin to Ken Singleton................

I guess this proves your point, but...

who is Henry Larkin?

CubFan7125 · 12-25-2001, 01:20 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by sweaver
I guess this proves your point, but...

who is Henry Larkin?

I was wondering the same thing!!!

TGwynn19 · 12-25-2001, 01:28 PM

I think that Tim Raines will never get into the HOF and I think he will be the best player not in the HOF

LeGrandOrange · 12-25-2001, 03:33 PM

This is what I think of Tim Raines.
IMO, Tim Raines is god. 'nuff said.

Raines is why I'm an Expo fan. And why I like ex-Expos. When I was first paying attention to the Indianapolis Indians, Raines was the star of the parent club. And he's just such a great guy, and a great player to boot. He's classy and talented, what an excellent combination.
However, Raines isn't my choice for best unidentifiable player.
I'm sure people have heard of him, but my choice has always been Jose Cruz, Sr. Play him in hitters' park or something and we may talk about him being a fringe Hall candidate. Cruz has never gotten respect, wasn't asked to appear in the Bad News Bear movie that involved the Astrodome (and yet they asked Roger frickin' Metzger) even though he was their best player. And despite his credentials, it took an e-mail of mine for Cruz to get NetShrine consideration.

And there's certainly other things I can point out, but I can't think of them right now.
As unknown and awesome as Raffy Palmeiro is, he actually has credentials to get himself known statistically. I think he'll be the least heralded player EVER to be elected to the hall. He's the greatest second fiddle in major league history, and when he retires, he'll be the greatest Cuban in history.
Cruz is only Junior Cruz's father to most, and few know his actual career. I'm one of few who thinks he was a "great". But anyway, that's my thinking.
--end of my line--

Oh, and you wanted to know who Henry Larkin is? Larkin was an American Association player (and if you picked one of them, couldn't you have picked Tip O'Neill or something?), a 1B/LF/CF. Never lead the league in anything, but in his career, which also spanned in the players' league and with Washington in the NL, he hit .303, with a .380 OB% and a .440 SL%. He was one of the league's better extra-base threats during the AA's later years.
Just so you know.

nightal · 12-25-2001, 07:59 PM

There are 18 shortstops in the Hall Fame outside of Ernie Banks (who played more games at IB anyway). None of the relatively recent ones (Rizzuto Reese. Aparicio) had the punch of this former Browns and Red Sox slugger. Stephens¹ .286 BA is higher than any of these guys, including Banks Mr. "Let' Play Two" is the only other one in the 1.000 -1000 club: Stephens had 1,174 rbis and 1,001 runs, plus 247 homers --the exact number of Scooter. Pee Wee and Louie combined. His slugging average was .460. compared to Banks¹ .500: the other three were sub .400

And don't think that just because he was a masher he's not in the Hall because he couldn't field. You don' play shortstop 15 years in the majors if you can't. And Sox pitcher Mel Parnell, a ground ball pitcher, said he depended upon Stephens and his HOF keystone partner, Bobby Doerr. Doerr says "He had good range and a strong throwing arm."

The SS with the best batting record not in the Hall made 7 All Star teams, Ied the AL in ribbies thrice, including 159 in 1950.

sweaver · 12-25-2001, 08:23 PM

Stephens got a bad rap because the writers said he would hit homers in blowouts, but wasn't worth anything in close games: in other words, was not a "clutch hitter." I'd like to see someone refute that statistically, but between you and me it's all hooey.

Stephens, Cruz, Blyleven and Raines are all good choices. If Raines does not make the Hall, I would name him. Otherwise, it's a tough choice.

12-24-2001, 08:28 PM	#1
nightal NetShrine MVP Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: oklahoma Posts: 262	Best player no one has heard of. My nominee is Vern (Buster) Stephens: 6 time top 10 American League MVP voting 8 time American League all-star 7 time top 10 American League total bases 7 time top 10 American League HR(1st once) 7 time top 10 American League RBI(1st 3 times) 4 time top 10 American League OPS 6 time top 10 American League xtra base hits Shortstop range factor 4.55 Fielding % .962 Hall of Fame Black Ink (average HOF=27) Stephens-18 Hall of Fame Gray Ink (average HOF=144) Stephens-141 HOF standards (avg HOF=50) Stephens-38.5 HOF Monitor (avg HOF= >100) Stephens-72 wade in al

12-25-2001, 01:12 AM	#4
CubFan7125 Inducted Into The NetShrine Assembly of Fame Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Mendota Heights, MN(Just Outside Of St Paul) Posts: 534	I thought of many possible answers to your post - but Bert's numbers speak for themselves. - 287 wins - 2 time world series champion(never melted down in the ALCS,like Roger) - 2 time all-star - 242 complete games(Roger, the active leader, has 116) - 60 Shutouts(Roger, the active leader, has 45) - 3701 K's & he didn't even get to face Russ Branyan - 4970 innings(Roger, the active leader, has 3887) - He possibly had the BEST CURVEBALL EVER. - As for you break through theory, this man won 15 games 10 times. Using that logic, I suppose you keep Don Sutton out of the HOF. - Career ERA of 3.31 As for your good stories argument it is pretty clear you never followed the Twins, Cleveland or the Pirates very close, since Blyleven is known as one of the best practical jokers in baseball history. I could go on & on, but that would be pointless. For whatever reason certain players that spent the majority of their careers outside of major markets get pushed by the wayside until it becomes almost fashionable to call them underrated or forgotten about. The amazing thing was that there is another Twin pitcher who won nearly as many games as the "Dutchman" & is truly forgotten about as a player & who you could build a forgotten case around much easier than Bert. Who am I talking about. Jim Kaat. He won 283 games & collected 16 Gold Gloves. Using your 20 year gauge(Kaat last played in 1983 for St. Louis) how many people remember him as a player or what he did? Not many. __________________ It's not a real HOF until Pete and Bert are in it Last edited by CubFan7125 : 12-25-2001 at 01:16 AM.

12-25-2001, 11:47 AM	#8
Xanadu Dragon NetShrine Creator & Curator Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: NetShrine WHQ Posts: 2,704	There's a long list of them - - - from Henry Larkin to Ken Singleton................ __________________ Steve, Forum Administrator PLEASE READ: Community Standards . : ~ : PLEASE SHOP: Our Stuff! : ~ : HOW CAN YOU: Help? : ~ : BE NICE: To Your Fav Baseball Person.

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12-24-2001, 11:22 PM	#3
timconnelly Renounced Membership 1/6/02 Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: NC Posts: 266	My choice is Bert Blyleven. Although, Blyleven is not unknown to us today, I think he will be unknown to fans 20 years from now. There are no good stories about him, nothing that stands out to distinguish him from other fine players. He was a fine player for so very long and yet never had a break through season (or at least one he is recognized for; Lee's neutral wins and losses formula takes his 20-17 1973 season and shows he would have been 26-11 with just average support. Blyleven struck out more batters than Tom Seaver but only led the league once. He is a player whose ability to be remembered is going to depend on getting into Cooperstown and I don't see it happening.

12-25-2001, 05:23 AM	#5
TGwynn19 Guest Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Naples, FL Posts: 2,087	My vote..Tim Raines

12-25-2001, 01:28 PM	#12
TGwynn19 Guest Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Naples, FL Posts: 2,087	I think that Tim Raines will never get into the HOF and I think he will be the best player not in the HOF

12-25-2001, 03:33 PM	#13
LeGrandOrange Membership Suspended 4/11/04 Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Tacoma, WA Posts: 3,783	This is what I think of Tim Raines. IMO, Tim Raines is god. 'nuff said. Raines is why I'm an Expo fan. And why I like ex-Expos. When I was first paying attention to the Indianapolis Indians, Raines was the star of the parent club. And he's just such a great guy, and a great player to boot. He's classy and talented, what an excellent combination. However, Raines isn't my choice for best unidentifiable player. I'm sure people have heard of him, but my choice has always been Jose Cruz, Sr. Play him in hitters' park or something and we may talk about him being a fringe Hall candidate. Cruz has never gotten respect, wasn't asked to appear in the Bad News Bear movie that involved the Astrodome (and yet they asked Roger frickin' Metzger) even though he was their best player. And despite his credentials, it took an e-mail of mine for Cruz to get NetShrine consideration. And there's certainly other things I can point out, but I can't think of them right now. As unknown and awesome as Raffy Palmeiro is, he actually has credentials to get himself known statistically. I think he'll be the least heralded player EVER to be elected to the hall. He's the greatest second fiddle in major league history, and when he retires, he'll be the greatest Cuban in history. Cruz is only Junior Cruz's father to most, and few know his actual career. I'm one of few who thinks he was a "great". But anyway, that's my thinking. --end of my line-- Oh, and you wanted to know who Henry Larkin is? Larkin was an American Association player (and if you picked one of them, couldn't you have picked Tip O'Neill or something?), a 1B/LF/CF. Never lead the league in anything, but in his career, which also spanned in the players' league and with Washington in the NL, he hit .303, with a .380 OB% and a .440 SL%. He was one of the league's better extra-base threats during the AA's later years. Just so you know.

12-25-2001, 07:59 PM	#14
nightal NetShrine MVP Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: oklahoma Posts: 262	There are 18 shortstops in the Hall Fame outside of Ernie Banks (who played more games at IB anyway). None of the relatively recent ones (Rizzuto Reese. Aparicio) had the punch of this former Browns and Red Sox slugger. Stephens¹ .286 BA is higher than any of these guys, including Banks Mr. "Let' Play Two" is the only other one in the 1.000 -1000 club: Stephens had 1,174 rbis and 1,001 runs, plus 247 homers --the exact number of Scooter. Pee Wee and Louie combined. His slugging average was .460. compared to Banks¹ .500: the other three were sub .400 And don't think that just because he was a masher he's not in the Hall because he couldn't field. You don' play shortstop 15 years in the majors if you can't. And Sox pitcher Mel Parnell, a ground ball pitcher, said he depended upon Stephens and his HOF keystone partner, Bobby Doerr. Doerr says "He had good range and a strong throwing arm." The SS with the best batting record not in the Hall made 7 All Star teams, Ied the AL in ribbies thrice, including 159 in 1950.

12-25-2001, 08:23 PM	#15
sweaver Netshrine Cleanup Hitter Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: The Mountain State Posts: 8,883	Stephens got a bad rap because the writers said he would hit homers in blowouts, but wasn't worth anything in close games: in other words, was not a "clutch hitter." I'd like to see someone refute that statistically, but between you and me it's all hooey. Stephens, Cruz, Blyleven and Raines are all good choices. If Raines does not make the Hall, I would name him. Otherwise, it's a tough choice.

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