Out of the Mouths of Joes

[Wolf Hopper]

See: http://www.netshrine.com/20031012.html

Discussion welcome and appreciated.

[Firpo Marberry]

Originally Posted by Wolf Hopper

See: http://www.netshrine.com/20031012.html

Discussion welcome and appreciated.

I'd need a helluva lot more evidence than the word of self-professed lip-readers before I believe PJ said he was gonna noggin' Posada.

Saying Zimmer was thrown to the ground is pretty funny. The unlovable old fool can barely stand on his feet in a phone booth. If a man can't stay on his feet after a brief scalp massage, he shouldn't be taking left-jabs at people.

Saying it's all Pedro's fault is like beating up the kid who stole your bike, then having your brother go over and throw a rock through the bedroom window of the sister of the kid who stole your bike, then puncturing the tires on the car belonging to the family of the kid who stole your bike then saying if the kid had never stolen the bike, the window and tires would be fine.

[satchel]

Unless you can read lips in Spanish, I wouldn't recommend using the highlight reels to try and guess what Posada and Pedro were saying to one another. I doubt that conversation happened in English.

[Wolf Hopper]

Originally Posted by satchel

Unless you can read lips in Spanish, I wouldn't recommend using the highlight reels to try and guess what Posada and Pedro were saying to one another. I doubt that conversation happened in English.

It may not have even been Spanish -
http://www.recordonline.com/archive/...2/pedzimap.htm

"I thought he was a better man," said Yankees catcher Jorge Posada, who exchanged words and gestures with Martinez, the pitcher pointing at his head.

Did Posada think Martinez was threatening to hit him in the head?

"I have no idea," Posada said. "Ask him."

I know what I saw - and it clearly looked like "I'll hit you" to me. Too bad Pedro doesn't speak with media - unless he wants to - because it seems everyone is deferring to him for a lot of the answers on what happened.

[Jim Rice]

Originally Posted by Wolf Hopper

...Too bad Pedro doesn't speak with media - unless he wants to - because it seems everyone is deferring to him for a lot of the answers on what happened.

As well they should. Posada was given his shot to say what he heard - he was specifically asked if Pedro threatened him and he deferred to Pedro. Absent someone willing to step up and say they heard Pedro say "Ill hit you in the head" or whatever, then we've got to wait for Pedro to comment. That just being responsible before reporting speculation. Too bad the Fox commentators didn't practice some of that responsibility.

[Wolf Hopper]

Originally Posted by Firpo Marberry

Saying it's all Pedro's fault is like beating up the kid who stole your bike, then having your brother go over and throw a rock through the bedroom window of the sister of the kid who stole your bike, then puncturing the tires on the car belonging to the family of the kid who stole your bike then saying if the kid had never stolen the bike, the window and tires would be fine.

Except, in the case of Pedro, after he hit Garcia (or, in your case stole the bike) he never got beat up for it.

Firpo - in your example, clearly, you must see that, without the bike theft, why would the brother go to the house, etc. You need the cause to get the effect. Same thing in Boston, Pedro was the cause and Manny and Zimmer were the effect.

[Wolf Hopper]

Satchel - - Just found this. According to Jackie MacMullan of the Boston Globe, Pedro did threaten Posada with a beaning:

http://www.boston.com/sports/basebal...ame_black_eye/

As Posada and Martinez continued a war of words, Martinez pointed to his Red Sox cap and told Posada, "Next time, I'll hit you in the head."

It was a low moment for the best pitcher in baseball.

Is the Boston Globe known for making up quotes?

[satchel]

Originally Posted by Wolf Hopper

Is the Boston Globe known for making up quotes?

Is that a serious question? The history of the Globe isn't any better than the recent history of the Times. And this is a sportswriter we're talking about here. Notice that the quote is unattributed - who heard him say that? Who told the reporter he said that?

He might have said it - I'm not saying he didn't, because it looked like that was the message he was communicating, even though I don't know what words he might have used. My only point was that I wouldn't rely on lip reading.

[Wolf Hopper]

Originally Posted by satchel

Is that a serious question? The history of the Globe isn't any better than the recent history of the Times. And this is a sportswriter we're talking about here. Notice that the quote is unattributed - who heard him say that? Who told the reporter he said that?

He might have said it - I'm not saying he didn't, because it looked like that was the message he was communicating, even though I don't know what words he might have used. My only point was that I wouldn't rely on lip reading.

If the Globe is quoting things that were not said, shame on them. That is terrible.

[Jim Rice]

Originally Posted by Wolf Hopper

Satchel - - Just found this. According to Jackie MacMullan of the Boston Globe, Pedro did threaten Posada with a beaning:

http://www.boston.com/sports/basebal...ame_black_eye/



Is the Boston Globe known for making up quotes?

Umm, yeah. Ever heard of Mike Barnicle?

[Jim Rice]

Originally Posted by Wolf Hopper

Satchel - - Just found this. According to Jackie MacMullan of the Boston Globe, Pedro did threaten Posada with a beaning:

http://www.boston.com/sports/basebal...ame_black_eye/



Is the Boston Globe known for making up quotes?

Wolf - Please be even-handed in this. I'm all in favor of getting things accurate and I'd like to know as much as anyone whether Pedro intended to both hit Garcia and threaten Posada. If those things are true, then my team has $17 million tied up in a guy who has a tendency to lose his cool in a tight playoff game, so I've got a vested rooting interest in knowing if that's what he actually did. We're not going to get there by paying attention to unattributed reports and by ignoring the other aspects of these incidents. For instance, from the exact same article comes this quote from Karim Garcia -

"Walker was upset," Garcia said. "He didn't like what I did. But once someone hits me, I've got to hit somebody back."

That's not exactly the image of Yankee professionalism many like to project, including the Yankees themselves. I was hit (actually, it looks like he might not have actually been hit at all) so I must hit back, even if the guy I'm hitting didn't do a damn thing. That's pretty pitiful, and when combined with the Zimmer bullrush, and Nelson and Garcia's bullpen tapdance, there's actually more people in pinstripes who look bad in all of this sad affair than there are in the Red Sox clubhouse. That's not to say their sins are worse or even equal to those Pedro did/may have committed, but they do have the raw numbers compared to the Sox.

Let's please distribute the blame as evenly as it was earned.

[Wolf Hopper]

Jim Rice - you missed the point of the SOTS feature. I never absolved anyone - including Garcia and Zimmer for their on the field actions. My point is simple: If Pedro does not bean Garcia out of his own personal frustration then none of the other stuff - Garcia/Walker, Clemens/Manny, Zimmer/Pedro happens. Therefore, since Pedro set the course of events into play, he is the one who deserves ultimate blame above all the others.

Does anyone honestly think that, if Pedro had done anything other than hit Garcia with the pitch, that Manny would have reacted the way he did to Clemens, and then that Zimmer would have charged Pedro after Manny charged Clemens?

[hmrsf]

From the highlight, I thought Pedro said...."I will remember you, Jorge!"

Guess everyone sees things from their own slant.

I have seen Pedro purposefully hit someone, and It is always a drill to the butt. This was not typical. I don't think it was the pitch Varitek called for.

Great write up Steve. I think game played out differently in person than on TV.

Neither team played a good clean game. Basically boys behaving badly is all I can think of.

[Joseph]

I blame this entire series of events on Ban Johnson, if he hadn't founded the American League none of this would have ever happened.

Wolf, good article. One question, If Pedro would have hit Garcia somewhere else (like the backside) would you have the same opinion of the incident? Would the events that followed still have unfolded like they did?

[Wolf Hopper]

Originally Posted by Joseph

One question, If Pedro would have hit Garcia somewhere else (like the backside) would you have the same opinion of the incident? Would the events that followed still have unfolded like they did?

We'll never know - 'tho, Garcia said after the game that, if he was hit below the shoulders, or in the hip, he would have not been as upset - - saying that's just baseball.

If Pedro had nailed him in the hip, what would have happened next? No one can know - only guess.