NetShrine Discussion Forum - Freddie Not Fingered

NetShrine Discussion Forum (http://www.netshrine.com/vbulletin2/index.php)

- 2003 Baseball History Archives (http://www.netshrine.com/vbulletin2/forumdisplay.php?f=49)

- - Freddie Not Fingered (http://www.netshrine.com/vbulletin2/showthread.php?t=9108)

Freddie Not Fingered

Thought this was an interesting list:

Code:

1900-2002

Most seasons in a row with

STOLEN BASES >= 30 and 

CAUGHT STEALING <= 20



1    Tim Raines               1981-92   12   

T2   Willie Wilson            1978-88   11   

T2   Rickey Henderson         1983-93   11   

4    Honus Wagner             1900-09   10   

5    Joe Morgan               1969-77    9   

T6   Lou Brock                1966-73    8   

T6   Freddie Patek            1971-78    8   

T8   Sam Mertes               1900-06    7   

T8   Max Carey                1912-18    7   

T8   George Case              1939-45    7   

T8   Davey Lopes              1973-79    7   

T8   Juan Samuel              1984-90    7   

T8   Steve Sax                1986-92    7

Why doesn't Freddie Patek get mentioned as one of the greatest basestealers of all-time?

Several reasons, I'd guess.

First, he ranks 73rd on the career list. Would anyone term Joe Adcock one of the best home run hitters of all time?

Secondly, the parameters you chose didn't make for completely exclusive company. To make it, you'd need only a 60% rate of success, hardly the mark of a great basestealer. For the record, Patek was around 75%, a good number. However, combining big numbers and a good percentage (like Raines) is much more impressive.

Related to those paremeters, would you rather have the 1976 Freddie Patek who fits that category (51 SB, 15 CS), or the 1987 Vince Coleman (109 SB, 22 CS) who doesn't? I think you need to look more at percentages and output.

Finally, he never really put up enormous numbers in a season. He only led the league once, and finished twice another time. Here's the same list of players, along with their highest season total:

Rickey Henderson - 130
Lou Brock - 118
Tim Raines - 90
Willie Wilson - 83
Davey Lopes - 77
Juan Samuel - 72
Joe Morgan - 67
Max Carey - 63
Honus Wagner - 61
Steve Sax - 56
Freddie Patek - 53
Sam Mertes - 52

Yes, he was a good baserunner, but I don't think he's one of the greatest.

A relatively short career and 73rd place on the all-time SB list might have something to do with it.

Also, would you rather have a guy with 37 steals and 15 CS, or a guy with 62 steals and 28 CS? It's the second guy who'll be remembered as a big SB artist, even though his percentages are worse.

Oops ... Overlapping posts with Craig S.

Quote:

Originally posted by Skip
Oops ... Overlapping posts with Craig S.

At least we agreed!

OK, maybe I jumped the gun - but, he's still only one of 24 to have back-to-back years of
CS<=15 and SB>=50
in the modern era. That's pretty good.

He'd be noticed if he played now. No one really published CS data back then. You were lucky to get totals.

I doubt that he'd get much notice even today. His career offensive numbers are poor (.242/.309/.324) even for a middle infielder. Even with all his steals, his career high for runs scored was 86 in 1971

I remember Patek well, mostly because the Royals made the ALCS three straight years (76-78) so he received a lot of television exposure for the time.

Patek was never really regarded as a star, although he made thre all-star teams and finished 6th in the AL MVP voting in 1971 (a bit of an aberration). He was a pretty good fielder although he won no Gold Gloves and probably is best remembered today for hitting well in the 76 & 77 ALCS (he performed poorly at the bat in the 78 ALCS)

Patek was a favorite of Royals fans. He was a gritty, hard nosed player who could not overcome his impulse at the plate to take big healthy fly ball swings. He was a very good shortstop and base runner and gave you everything he had,