Best-fielding 2B
 

Carrying on the theme in the SS thread, who are the best second basemen you've ever seen?

Mine:

1. Frank White -- never saw Maz, but can't see how he was any better than White.
2. Alomar
3. Manny Trillo -- best arm of this group
4. Jose Lind
5. Lemke*

Best at DP: Lemke, Randolph, Robby Thompson.

*I know Glen Hubbard rates as a great second baseman, but I used to watch the Braves then, and he was a fine fielder, but didn't strike me as any better than, say, Tommy Herr. I always thought Lemke was the most underrated fielder in baseball.

And oh, you know, Jose Oquendo should get an honorable mention here somewhere. He was a great shortstop with the Mets early on, but Ozzie won all the Gold Gloves, and then he had to play second because of Ozzie.

I assume you are speaking of defense only:

1) Bill Mazeroski
2) Frank White
3) Robby Alomar
4) Jose Lind


- if you are speaking of the whole package it's

1) Joe Morgan
2) Robby Alomar
3) Ryne Sandburg
4) Bobby Grich
5) Nellie Fox

Alomar
no one else even close.

1. Alomar
2. White
3. Oquendo
4. Lemke
5. Lind

Maz was the best fielder followed by White. Alomar might be next but not close to the first two.

Same list, but with (1) Mazeroski, (6) Morgan, (7) Alomar.

Fielding only:

1. Alomar
2. Lind
3. Dick Green
4. trillo
5. White

Its a shame that glovework has been deemphasized in favor of big bats; Kent, Boone, et al. No one has been sweeter in the field than Alomar since the early 70's; one of the few to excel on both turf and grass.

I think that Frank White and Julio Cruz deserve some credit for putting up good range numbers - playing in turf where more balls scoot by you..................

I never saw Mazeroski play, but there is no way he could have possibly had the range of Alomar. I'd say #1 is Alomar, and no one else is even close.

The best that I've ever seen(defense only)?

1. Roberto Alomar
2. Bret Boone
3. Frank White
4. Manny Trillo
5. Steve Sax (hehe, just kidding) - Pokey Reese
6. Joe Morgan

Ryno is getting the shaft here. I've been baseball hardcore since about 1981, so I'm limiting my analysis to that. Alomar is the best followed by Sandberg. C'mon Smed, back me up on this one. Why is a Sox fan put in the position of defending a Cubs player?

Alomar is certainly the best I've seen. He makes more "no one else could have done that" plays than anyone other than Ozzie and Vizquel.

pad -
I agree that alomar has crazy range. but why couldn't someone be a little better? just wondrin'

I liked Ryno, but I didn't think he was all that and a bag of chips at second.

Guys like Frank White, Jose Lind, Dick Green (a forgotten man), Maz and Alomar are better than Ryno.

Ryno, I think, was the best example of a guy winning Gold Gloves strictly on reputation. He was very good, after adjusting to the position, early on with the Cubs, say from 1984-1988 or so...but he was still winning Gold Gloves into the 1990s, when he was probably no better than the 4th-5th best guy in the league. Overall I agree 100 percent with James' assessment of him as a B/B+ second baseman.

Actually that might be the best way to describe him: He was a B+ at everything. He was a good average hitter, had power, had speed, good defense, good strike-zone judgment, but he didn't hit .340 or hit 50 homers or steal 80 bases or walk 140 times.

Writing this out...that may be why he won those Gold Gloves. It is striking that Sandberg, obviously the most complete player at his position and possibly in the league for most of his career, was mostly competing for All-Star berths against good hitters who had defensive problems (Ray, Sax, Sandberg) or guys you never heard much about since they didn't hit at all, but they could field a storm (Lind, Oquendo, Hubbard). Sandberg was the best fielder whose batting stats were in the NL leader boards.

You haven't seen second base played, if you haven't seen Maz play it. Man, he was smooth. Like silk. Too cool to be white.

Forgot about Trillo, darn it. Here's a revised list:

(1) Mazeroski (2) Frank White (3) Manny Trillo (4) Jose Oquendo (5) Mark Lemke (6) Chico Lind (7) Joe Morgan (8) Roberto Alomar.

Dick Green belongs on there somewhere. He almost won a World Series MVP without getting a hit, just with the glove.

As a defensive player Maz was that good - maybe a hair less range than some but incredibly sure-handed and absolutely the best pivot man that ever was. Probably the best defensive player ever at any position.

As an offensive player he was killed by his ballpark - playing in Chicago, St Louis (Old Busch Stadium), or Crosley Field , he would have been regarded as a second baseman with decent power (nearly 2/3 of his homeruns were hit on the road).

I met Mazeroski a few years ago - one heck of a nice man.

I feel the same way about Willie Mays as I do about Mazeroski. I'm too young to have seen either of them play, so there is no way I can appreciate how good they were. At least with Mays there are the offensive numbers, but the only play I ever saw him make on defense was the one in the '54 World Series. With Mazeroski, all I ever see is the homerun in the '60 Series. I have never seen a single play he made on defense.

But how in the world can Alomar only be #8 on your list? Do you really think that Mark Lemke was a better fielder than Alomar? I'm sorry, but that's just ridiculous.

Also, I pride myself on my knowledge of baseball history, but at the risk of sounding totally ignorant, who the hell was Dick Green? For the life of me, I have no idea who that guy is.

Son -

Dick Green was a key member of the Swingin' A's. He's forgotten because he quit the game when he was fed up with Finley and his tactics and didn't cash in on free agency. He didn't have much of a stick, but his steady play at the keystone sack along with Bert Campineris at short helped build the A's into a powerhouse much like the present day Yankees.

Alomar is a fine fielder, but I admit Lemke was better. That's the only reason he stayed in the game that long. And Hubbard was better than Lemke.

Did we mention Tommy Herr. He was the definition of steady. Not flashy, but made the plays and kept up with Ozzie.

You have to realize, pf, that your ignorance of Dick Green completely nullifies the criticism of Alomar's position on my list. :D

Green was with the A's on the World Championship teams of the 1970s. Couldn't hit a lick, but the man was magic with a glove on his hand.

Yes, Lemke was tremendous. I might move Alomar ahead of Morgan, but not Lemke, a tremendous defender and underrated member of the Braves' championship teams of the early 1990s. I prefer quietly competent fielders to flashy types, like Alomar, Ordonez, or Vizquel, who look awfully good just not QUITE making that play, which another guy with better real range would have made.

You're right, Smed. Should have Hubbard on there too.

By the time this is done, I will have one long list.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/g/greendi01.shtml

BTW - Green wasn't THAT bad with the stick, really, considering the era. And he had some power, too, for a 2B at that time.

[bob boone] bret boone is the greatest defensive 2B of all time [/BB]

heck, i dont know. my dad says maz was the best he saw at turning the DP, and since he has no inherent bias toward the pirates, i'll believe him....

I am too young to have seen Maz play but I have seen him in old footage and on ESPN Classic...everything anyone said about him turning the double play is true, that's all I can say.

I wish he were around today, where we could break down his movements with slow-mo. I have no idea how he could get that much velocity/accuracy on the throw, with his momentum going away from first, with no leverage, so quickly. The best way to describe it is to say that it's hard to believe the shortstop could have gotten the ball to first faster on a straight throw. Never seen anything like it.

That said...I still think you don't lose anything with Frank White out there...I think he had as much range as Ozzie.