Al Rosen for the Hall of Fame!
 

I believe Al Rosen has the highest peak value of any player not in the Hall of Fame.

Rosen played for parts of 10 seasons, but only 7 full ones; however, he IS eligible for induction.

Rosen's career in seasonal notation is: 30 HRs, 111 RBI, .285 BA, .384 OBP, 91 BB, 94 runs scored. His career OPS was .879, and that didn't include .765 and .779 his last two years. Rosen, a 3Bman, was the MVP in 1953. He retired after 1956 due to back trouble.

At the time Rosen retired he was probably the greatest 3B in history in terms of peak value. His 4-year run from 1950-53 is comparable to the best years of Schmidt, Brett, and Matthews.

In terms of hitting a peak, Al Rosen hit a higher peak in value than most HOFers. In the Addie Joss spirit, I am taking up his candidacy. How many HOFers have had the 4 year run that he did? How many can even touch his peak value?

Re: Al Rosen for the Hall of Fame!
 

Well, two issues.

1. You're forgetting the tragedy factor in Joss. Rosen hurt his back, Joss lost his life and left a wife and kids.

2. Not a lot of HOF players could match that four year run, but Maris strung five good ones in a row and didn't get in, deservedly.

Rosen wasn't the DOMINANT player in the league from 1950-54. He had a monster 1953, but:

CAREER
1950-1954

OPS OPS
1 Ted Williams 1.105
2 Stan Musial 1.030
3 Duke Snider .949
4 Ralph Kiner .945
5 Eddie Mathews .944
6 Willie Mays .940
7 Jackie Robinson .927
8 Al Rosen .924
9 Larry Doby .912
10 Gil Hodges .912

RCAA RCAA
1 Stan Musial 397
2 Ted Williams 249
3 Larry Doby 237
T4 Duke Snider 230
T4 Al Rosen 230
6 Ralph Kiner 219
7 Jackie Robinson 216
8 Mickey Mantle 177
9 Yogi Berra 171
10 Gil Hodges 170

Smed - not that I'm backing Rosen - - but, on the Joss point, death should carry no extra power over a bad back.

Bottom line, both Joss and Rosen ended their career to injury. Just so happens that Joss' injury was more severe than Rosen's.

I think Al Rosen retired as much for the fan support...or rather, the lack thereof...as the injuries. I think both had equal parts influence.
The school of thought for Flip would be more Roy Campanella then Addie Joss. Campanella, in his...6(?) year prime, was indeed the premier catcher in the NL. Berra was uncontested as the best in the AL in the same way Campy was in the NL.
Looking at everything, Rosen did have that same domination of the AL 3B position. What, you really expected the best one to be George Kell or Eddie Yost? :) And until the back or whatever it was gave out, he made himself into a pretty good fielder that proved to be a worthy replacement to Keltner. Much like Eddie Mathews was after 1952 in the NL, Rosen was the premier 3B in the AL.
If Rosen played in New York, he'd probably be in through the Veteran's Committee right now. Otherwise, the career length hurts him. I'd like to see him honoured, but I don't think Cooperstown would let it happen...

I disagree. They didn't play a benefit game for Rosen. There wasn't grief stricken euolgies in the press for Rosen. There wasn't a sense of mourning and loss in baseball for Rosen.

I think we're off track - I mean that a player should NOT get an extra credit for dying - as opposed to a bad back, etc.

No, there's no comparison. They wouldn't have allowed Clemente in the HOF the year after he retired if it wasn't for his tragedy.

What I'm trying to say that the circumstances of Joss and Clemente make it more apt to allow them special circumstances in the HOF. Right or wrong, that's the way it is. They couldn't get Ray Chapman in because he didn't play long enough.

Many top-notch players had to leave before their time because of injury or other circumstances. It is only in extreme tragedy that the HOF seems to "make up" for it.

Dying is a damn big factor. It shouldn't be but it is.

If you are going to have a real short career you had better be an absolute stud or have played with Frank Frisch. Rosen qualifies on neither.

When I "nominated" Rosen in the spirit of Addie Joss, I did so with the idea of a short career in mind.

I do believe that there is a difference between a career ending in death vs. a career ending in injury. Thurman Munson's death was not a consequence of his playing catcher, or his style of play, whereas, if Pedro's arm is toast, it is a direct result of his style of play; he could not have played longer as he did without experiencing injury.

Rosen's injury is a back injury. Back injuries are somewhat the consequence of a player's abilities and style of play, but not as much as arm or leg injuries.

I can't agree with you, Boomer, on the idea that Rosen wasn't a real stud. I think he was. Just look at his OPS and RCAA stats (provided to us courtesy of SmedIndy). Rosen is in the top ten in both from 1950-54, in two groups that include 9 Hall-of-Famers and Gil Hodges. Rosen is 8th in OPS and 4th in RCAA, so he is IN THE MIDDLE OF THE GROUP, not on the fringe. Plus, he played 3B, whereas everyone else in the group was a 1B or an OF (except for Yogi and Jackie). That's pretty studley to me, don't you think. How many other Hall-of-Famers have racked up comparable stats over a 5 year period? How many were not playing 1B or OF? Rosen was a superstar, albeit for a brief period. He really does belong in the Hall.

Fairly or unfairly, Rosen was hampered because he only had seven full seasons, plus three partials. He only had 1,063 hits in the bigs. And when he was fighting the back injury, his production suffered.

No one is going to put him in the HOF with those numbers even if he was the best player on the planet for that short amount of time.

I think he's a more qualified for the HOF than Ken Keltner (if you recall the lobbying campaign for him), or Fred Lindstrom. But putting my what the HOF will really do hat on, there's no shot for Rosen, especially if there is no chance for someone like Maris.

SmedIndy is right. His raw career numbers just don't feed the bulldog. His raw figures of .285/192HR's/717 RBI's/525 net runs couldn't get Frank Frisch behind him.

As much as we talk about peak value you have to have some kind of career to support that also.

Also the argument of "so-and-so" has the best "such-and-such" statistic who is not in the HoF is a little shaky. If we go down that path everyone has to be put in the HoF.

I agree with Smed. There's a non-trivial distinction between injury and tragedy.

Re: Re: Al Rosen for the Hall of Fame!
 

I'm resurrecting this to go with the new thread that contains a poll on the greatest Tribe 3B of all time. Y'all know by now that I'm an Al Rosen man.

Sorry Fuzzy, with his counting stats, he would have had to have the hitting peak the equivalent of Koufax's pitching peak to have a shot at the hall.

I wonder if anyone has any stats to compare Al Rosen's peak value vs. Koufax. I'm sure Koufax was higher, but I don't think Rosen would have to equal it to meet peak value HOF standards.