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View Full Version : What's Up Chuck Finley? [merged threads]


Wolf Hopper
05-04-2003, 09:00 AM
With all the teams hurting for pitching, I cannot believe someone, like Texas, would not give him $4-5 mill for one year - - he's a LHP with 200 career victories.

http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/sports/stories.nsf/Sports/Cardinals/0E4E57DE078AAFC586256D1C00166640?OpenDocument&Headline=Finley+faces+uphill+battle+in+bid+to+rejo in+Redbirds

Free-agent pitcher Chuck Finley has told the Cardinals he wants to play for the team again. The Cardinals have told him and his agents that they would like that to happen.

But it probably won't.

Cardinals management says the signing of Finley, a lefthanded starting pitcher, would face various hurdles, including a complicated bullpen situation, a fiscal "stone wall" and mixed clubhouse sentiment over the restructuring of contracts such a move would require. General manager Walt Jocketty spoke with Finley's representatives on Thursday. No proposals were exchanged, butJocketty said, "They're seeing a four-star general and we can only afford a one-star general."

The Cardinals currently have more pressing concerns than their starting rotation. Closer Jason Isringhausen's status remains uncertain and lefthanded relief specialist Steve Kline is a $1.8 million enigma.

"We might be better off saving our bullet," Jocketty said, "if we have a bullet."

Projecting a payroll of $83.05 million, the Cardinals are more than $3 million over budget. Last month, Jocketty cited finances when the club did not pursue released Houston Astros pitcher Shane Reynolds. (Reynolds signed with the Atlanta Braves for $300,000 plus a buyout.) Majority owner Bill DeWitt Jr. insisted recently that Jocketty must first move money before signing Finley.

Jocketty said, "Right now, there's no money. It's that simple."

The Cardinals traded for Finley and his $7.9 million salary last July by having the Cleveland Indians partly offset the cost. Their subsequent acquisition of third baseman Scott Rolen included cash considerations from the Philadelphia Phillies that made the deal a virtual financial wash. Finley's availability is a different matter. The Cardinals could trade a starting pitcher , perhaps Garrett Stephenson, to compensate but would still have to find more than $1 million they say they don't have. That would likely still involve approaching a veteran player about restructuring his contract.

Center fielder Jim Edmonds, first baseman Tino Martinez, IsringhausenRolen, pitcher Woody Williams and catcher Mike Matheny have deferred money in their contracts.

"Walt and the owners have always done what it takes to make us better," Edmonds said. "I think you expect them to continue to do that if there is a need. It's their job to decide if there's a need."

Scheduled to receive $10.5 million this season, pitcher Matt Morris was approached once about contract restructuring but declined. While his attitude might be different for a specific move rather than about protecting the club's budget, he is less inclined to redo a contract he negotiated himself at terms favorable to the team.

"I don't necessarily see where it's the players' problem," Morris said recently. "They've paid guys a certain amount of money and that's what the deal is. Guys have been very generous in giving back."

When Morris signed his three-year, $27 million deal before the 2002 season, he allowed the club to pay out $23 million in the final two years. "At some point you wonder where it ends," Morris said.

Finley's price tag is believed slightly more than $2 million, though some within the industry believe it may be prorated at $1 million a month, a lot of money for a 40-year-old who last pitched in October.

"It's one thing if it takes $2 million and another thing if it takes $5 million," said Edmonds, who already defers $1 million annually from his salary. "If it's $5 million and we don't do it, I think everybody would understand. If it's $2 million, that's not a lot of money. If they went to a few guys and asked them (to restructure), that wouldn't be a big hit for anybody."

Williams deferred much of the two-year, $14.9 million deal he signed last November through 2019. He is among those with a more forgiving attitude toward restructuring. "Any way we can help," he said. "Obviously, we make a lot of money. At some point it starts adding up. They have a budget. If there's any way we can help the club out, there are several guys in here who are willing to do that. I know that."

As a member of the Indians and Cardinals last year, Finley pitched a total of 190 2/3 innings and had a 4.15 earned-run average. The ERA was his second-best since 1993. He had a 7-4 record for the Cardinals.

"If we get him, it's awesome," Williams said. "When we got him last year, it made the stretch run that much easier for us. He brings a presence to the team. That's valuable."

Jocketty cites practical reasons for waiting. "Our rotation has been fine," he said, noting that righthander Chris Carpenter continues to rehabilitate in Florida. "There are some other guys who may be available if the need were there, certainly in July. We'll have to wait and see."

Finley could retire. But what happens if he pitches elsewhere, say Houston or Chicago?

"I don't think there would be hard feelings," Williams said. "The bottom line is, when is enough enough? Just because people have a lot of money doesn't mean they're willing to spend it just to spend it. If you look back, this team has done a lot to add or change. But we're in May. We're not talking about July. It's a different situation. It's not so desperate."

SmedIndy
05-04-2003, 10:47 AM
Players like Finley will be the ones squeezed out. Can't see anyone but a few select teams wanting him. He may have to play for a lot less than he may be worth simply because of the money.

JamesI
05-04-2003, 11:39 AM
Well, this happens when owners become more financially intelligent. They still want huge money for the top guys, so the middle players get squezzed. If Finley would accept 2 million instead of 4-5 he'll get signed.

Doc Pontoon
05-05-2003, 08:27 AM
I can't see him making more than $1 million, considering that nobody has made him an offer. I'd sure rather see him on the Cubs than Shawn Estes, but then there's a lot of guys I'd rather see daily in the Cubs lineup on their own team.

KCBOOMER
05-05-2003, 10:15 AM
Finley created this problem himself. There is not a high demand for overpaid 40 year old starters whose skills have clearly faded. If he is willing to accept a reasonable contract he would be pitching now, but he wants serious money just to be, at best, an average starter.

Wolf Hopper
05-05-2003, 10:41 AM
Originally posted by KCBOOMER
Finley created this problem himself. There is not a high demand for overpaid 40 year old starters whose skills have clearly faded.

Huh? Last year, he was one of the 15th best LH SP in MLB - -


SEASON
2002

LEFT HANDED PITCHERS
INNINGS PITCHED >= 190

RSAA RSAA IP
1 Randy Johnson 62 260
2 Barry Zito 49 229.1
3 Tom Glavine 29 224.2
4 Kenny Rogers 28 210.2
T5 Mark Mulder 27 207.1
T5 Jarrod Washburn 27 206
T5 Mark Buehrle 27 239
8 Jamie Moyer 21 230.2
9 Odalis Perez 18 222.1
10 David Wells 14 206.1
T11 Kirk Rueter 13 203.2
T11 Randy Wolf 13 210.2
13 Al Leiter 9 204.1
14 C.C. Sabathia 4 210
15 Chuck Finley 2 190.2

sweaver
05-05-2003, 10:48 AM
Cutoffs, Wolf, cutoffs. What does the same list look like, with a 150 IP cutoff, and listing the next 5 guys after Chuck?

Wolf Hopper
05-05-2003, 11:17 AM
Would you want a SP that only gives you 150 IP?

sweaver
05-05-2003, 11:43 AM
The point is, Finley pitched just 190.2 innings. Setting the cutoff just at his backside gives an unfair picture. And yes, lots of pitchers get 150 IP, especially if they miss some time, or get called up in-season. Still counts for 25 starts.

Wolf Hopper
05-05-2003, 11:58 AM
OK, moves Finley from 15 to 16. :D No big whoops. :stinker:


SEASON
2002

LEFT HANDED PITCHERS
INNINGS PITCHED >= 150
GAMES STARTED displayed only--not a sorting criteria

RSAA RSAA IP GS
1 Randy Johnson 62 260 35
2 Barry Zito 49 229.1 35
3 Tom Glavine 29 224.2 36
4 Kenny Rogers 28 210.2 33
T5 Mark Buehrle 27 239 34
T5 Jarrod Washburn 27 206 32
T5 Mark Mulder 27 207.1 30
8 Jamie Moyer 21 230.2 34
9 Odalis Perez 18 222.1 32
T10 Damian Moss 14 179 29
T10 David Wells 14 206.1 31
T12 Kirk Rueter 13 203.2 33
T12 Randy Wolf 13 210.2 31
14 Al Leiter 9 204.1 33
15 C.C. Sabathia 4 210 33
16 Chuck Finley 2 190.2 32
17 Mark Redman -1 203 30
18 Joe Kennedy -2 196.2 30
19 Omar Daal -3 161.1 23
20 Denny Neagle -4 164.1 28

sweaver
05-05-2003, 12:17 PM
Yeah, but it also shows he's between C.C. Sabathia and Mark Redman. How much would you pay for that? Not $4-5 mil, unless he's the guy that puts you over the top.

Unless, of course, you're the Orioles.

SmedIndy
05-05-2003, 12:54 PM
At $500,000 yes - not at Steve' price - even if he was the 15th best LH starter in the bigs - what was he overall? And is that the best measure?

LisaG
05-05-2003, 05:21 PM
finley has been paid millions for years. so he hardly needs more. seems to me that he'd better decided whether or not he wants to play at all. he could be one to say, and really mean, "it's not the money" he could ask Rickey.

OaktownTribeFan
05-06-2003, 06:18 AM
I bet they're looking for a good lefty in Newark right about now. ;)

BTW, did he ever get that Tawny situation settled?

satchel
05-06-2003, 09:46 AM
I'm inclined to agree with Lisa; he tried to hold out for the bucks and for a variety of reasons nobody bit. Now it's up to him to decide whether and for how much he wants to play.

There's no shame, in my opinion, in a guy like Finley deciding after a long and successful career that it would take more than $1M to drag him out on the road for another year. Of course I always root for the players who put the love of the game above all else, but when you're 40 and your arm's on the verge of falling off there's nothing wrong with feeling otherwise.

As for Tawny, I think I read that he filed for divorce. Smart guy.

Luis
05-24-2003, 03:14 PM
Does the upcoming amateur draft effect the compensation needed to sign Chuck Finley.

Are the Cardinals still due compensation if someone signs Finley after the amateur draft is held?

Domeboys
05-24-2003, 03:30 PM
http://espn.go.com/mlb/columns/stark_jayson/1541033.html

sweaver
05-24-2003, 11:06 PM
I have heard the theory that teams are waiting until the need for compensation passes to sign Finley. It is also possible that his asking price is too high. I'd sure like for the Reds to sign him, but the team is crying poor, even with a new park, so it seems unlikely.

Luis
05-24-2003, 11:11 PM
Thank you.

The article states that Finley could have been signed to a minor league contract prior to the draft and no compensation would have been due the cardinals. As no team has has signed Finley to a minor league contract than there are issues ( I suspect salary demands) that has prevented a team from signing Finley to this point. You would have thought that a team such as Cinncinnati which only seems to need pitching to contend would have signed finley to a minor league contract and had him ready to be promoted to the majors right after the draft.

TimmyB
05-30-2003, 11:33 AM
Jayson Stark mentions Boston as a possibility for Finley in today's Kim-Hillenbrand commentary.

I guess he'd be an upgrade over Burkett.

Still, there's that nagging $$$ question. What does he want to play?

sweaver
07-23-2003, 09:42 AM
With Matt Morris out 3-6 weeks with a broken finger, the Finley rumors renew again.

Domeboys
07-23-2003, 11:55 AM
With Matt Morris out 3-6 weeks with a broken finger, the Finley rumors renew again.

Unless you have a fresh source, Finley has continued to say that he is not playing this season. Nothing has really changed. Even before Morris' finger was hurt this week, the Cards rotation was in shambles.

Morris has not contributed since May. He has won only one game in the last month and a half and had either skipped starts or had them pushed back on multiple occasions due to shoulder discomfort.

Their 3-4-5 starters, Tomko, Stephenson and Simontacchi, have been among the league leaders in HR allowed all season. The latter two have already been removed from the rotation and Tomko is only hanging by a thread, even though there are no viable replacements.

My point is that there are no trade deadline dependencies with Finley and the Cards have needed help for weeks. If both sides were serious, this would have been done long ago.

SmedIndy
07-23-2003, 12:11 PM
My point is that there are no trade deadline dependencies with Finley and the Cards have needed help for weeks. If both sides were serious, this would have been done long ago.

Well, when you're down to Jeff Fassero as a starting pitcher - I'm puzzled why the Cards haven't pressed the issue.

Domeboys
07-23-2003, 12:52 PM
Well, when you're down to Jeff Fassero as a starting pitcher - I'm puzzled why the Cards haven't pressed the issue.

Yes, Fassero is the bottom of the barrel. Based on his consistently poor showing as a lefty relief specialist, I was in favor of releasing him. While he pitched fairly well last night, he is not an answer.

For months, Jocketty has maintained that his hands are tied and that he can only do salary neutral deals. About all the Cards have of value to trade is J.D. Drew and even he is damaged goods. However, a few days ago, Jocketty did acknowledge that he may have to trade a front line player for prospects and use that money for a starter. He had never said that before, to my knowledge. But, he did not mention Finley. In my dream world, I was hoping he meant Tim Hudson... Likely he meant more .500 pitchers like Cory Lidle and Sterling Hitchcock.

As recently as last night, the Cards broadcasters were firm in believing the team will be buyers, not sellers. I really question if that is the best strategy. Even if they could band-aid enough together to win the division, their pitching is too weak to have success in the playoffs.

Perhaps winning a division or securing a wild card is enough for some. For me, I'd rather take a step backward if that could help me contend for the series in a year or two... But, that is a big "if"...

sweaver
07-23-2003, 01:54 PM
No fresh source, just speculation heard on Baseball Tonight. I thought if Finley got a nice offer for a couple month work.......of course, as Gammons said, "How long would it take him to get ready to go?"

Domeboys
07-23-2003, 02:11 PM
No fresh source, just speculation heard on Baseball Tonight. I thought if Finley got a nice offer for a couple month work.......of course, as Gammons said, "How long would it take him to get ready to go?"

I am doing my best to pass on the obvious mile-wide opening left here in speculating that Finley may be keeping in fighting shape by brushing up on his self-defense techniques. Saying that would be really cheap...

Skip
07-23-2003, 03:04 PM
Well Domeboys, not as cheap as asking Sweaver if he heard the rumour on Baseball Tawnyte. ;)

pwdennis
07-25-2003, 12:36 PM
Well Domeboys, not as cheap as asking Sweaver if he heard the rumour on Baseball Tawnyte. ;)

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