Speaking of Foot-in-Mouth disease---here's Todd Jones.

[sweaver]

The text of a press release from the Rockies yesterday:

The unfortunate comments made by pitcher Todd Jones and published in today's Denver Post in no way reflect the views, opinions, or attitudes of the Colorado Rockies Baseball Club.
"As an organization and as a part of this community, we are committed to providing an environment for our employees and fans that is free of discrimination and prejudice regardless of race, color, sex, religion, national orientation, age, disability, or status as a veteran" said Keli McGregor, Rockies team president.

Anybody know what the deal is?

[sweaver]

Oh here it is...it goes with the earlier discussion of gays in baseball. These are Jones' comments, made in reference to a "Broadway portrayal of a homosexual ballplayer."


Colorado Rockies pitcher Todd Jones, a 6-foot, 3-inch pitcher from Marietta, Ga., said an openly gay player would create a hostile locker-room environment, and that opposing pitchers would likely throw intentionally at his head.

"I wouldn't want a gay guy being around me," Jones said. "It's got nothing to do with me being scared. That's the problem: All these people say he's got all these rights. Yeah, he's got rights or whatever, but he shouldn't walk around proud. It's like he's rubbing it in our face. 'See me, hear me roar.' We're not trying to be close-minded, but then again, why be confrontational when you don't really have to be?"

That kind of attitude "speaks volumes about America," said actor Daniel Sunjata, a Jeter lookalike who plays Lemming in "Take Me Out." "Sports are the last bastion of sanctioned homophobia in this country. The fact that something like sexual preference can so adversely affect your career and your income is depressing. If I were a pro baseball player, and I was gay, I might not come out, either, for those exact reasons."

[Craig S.]

Wow, is Jones really that stupid?

[satchel]

:(

His views are not uncommon among folks in this country, and they're probably not uncommon among ballplayers.

[satchel]

Originally posted by sweaver

"As an organization and as a part of this community, we are committed to providing an environment for our employees and fans that is free of discrimination and prejudice regardless of race, color, sex, religion, national orientation, age, disability, or status as a veteran" said Keli McGregor, Rockies team president.


Incidentally, note that "sexual orientation" is absent from that litany. This is a very carefully crafted CYA statement that doesn't actually address the comments Jones made. Nice. :rolleyes:

[Wolf Hopper]

Jones writes for TSN, no?
Guess he doesn't really care about having a future career as a reporter/writer?
Any bridge burned, is still a burned bridge.

[Craig S.]

Originally posted by sweaver
All these people say he's got all these rights. Yeah, he's got rights or whatever, but he shouldn't walk around proud. It's like he's rubbing it in our face. 'See me, hear me roar.'

Does he think that's how most gay Americans walk around? First off, it sounds like the kind of parodied gay character you see on television or in movies. Secondly, it's completely disrespectful of the huge number of gay people who go about their lives like anyone else, as well as those who spend a great deal of energy covering their sexual orientation because they're afraid of closed-minded jerks like Todd Jones.

I hope there's enough of a backlash that he loses his TSN column. Not that it's going to break him or anything, but I don't like the idea of someone with such obviously bigoted views writing an "everyman" type of column.

[KCBOOMER]

Looks like we are one of the bastions of political correctness ourselves. Maybe all Jones meant to say was that we have to tolerate gays, but we don't have to accept them. Not much difference, if any, when expressed that way than our tolerance of other political views. We don't accept them, but we tolerate their right to their views.

[satchel]

As I've already said, I'm not altogether shocked to read a ballplayer expressing what in all likelihood is a very common view. Please, in the interest of preserving the forum ban on politics, let's all try to keep our personal agreement or disagreement with that view out of the discussion.

I'm more interested in the Rockies' nonresponse.

[deadguy]

Jones' column in The Sporting News is usually pretty incoherent anyway. I read his piece on finding housing during spring training and actually howled with pain at the thought that he'd been paid good money to write (or more likely, dictate) it.

I fully expect his next piece will be an attempt to explain what he "really meant", which will most likely violate the first rule of standing in a hole: Stop digging.

Ultimately, making those comments may have been Jones' attempt at honesty, but I'm not sure that making them benefitted anyone, including Jones himself. The Rockies potentially alienated part of their fanbase, Jones gave motivation material to any closeted players who might be in the major leagues right now, and honestly, if an openly gay player who's that good comes along for the Rocks, it's going to be Jones who's sent packing instead. The best potential parallel was the way in which the Dodgers unloaded some of their less tolerant types after Jackie Robinson came on board; Jones and those who share his opinions should perhaps be less cocky that they'll be the ones kept happy should a gay star arrive on the scene.

[Doc Pontoon]

These heterosexuals I know are totally "in your face" about it at work. They have the audacity to have an openly displayed picture of their different-sex partners (their "spouses") and naturally-conceived children right on their desks! And don't get me started about the theists!

Really, I just want to keep a perfect record of posting on every Netshrine-locked quasi-political thread possible. :D

[Wolf Hopper]

Why is it - when I read "apologize" in the red quote below, I hear Marge Schott's voice saying it?

DENVER (AP) - Colorado Rockies pitcher Todd Jones apologized to the organization and his teammates Wednesday for his recent anti-gay remarks, but he didn't back off what he said.

``I think my only mistake was that I made my views public,'' said Jones, who was teary-eyed at times during his brief statement. ``And for that, I apologize to the Rockies and I apologize to my teammates for putting them through this.''

In an entertainment story in The Denver Post on Sunday, Jones said he would not want to have a gay teammate and that gays should not go around flaunting their sexuality.

The comments were part of a story comparing the story line of the Broadway play about a gay baseball player to what might happen if the scenario played out in real life. The play ``Take Me Out'' is centered on the repercussions of a major league baseball player announcing he's gay.

Jones said in the story that a gay player would cause tension within the clubhouse and that opposing pitchers likely would throw at his head.

``I wouldn't want a gay guy being around me,'' Jones told the paper. ``It's got nothing to do with me being scared. That's the problem: All these people say he's got all these rights. Yeah, he's got rights or whatever, but he shouldn't walk around proud. It's like he's rubbing it in our face. 'See me, Hear me roar.' We're not trying to be close-minded, but then again, why be confrontational when you don't really have to be?''

The Rockies responded with a statement on the team Web site Monday that said Jones' comments were ``unfortunate'' and did not reflect the team's views.

``We've handled Todd's comments internally and we've turned the page,'' Rockies manager Clint Hurdle said Wednesday.

Jones made it clear that his comments don't speak for the team.

``The Colorado Rockies have absolutely nothing to do with the comments I said and they shouldn't be held accountable for what I said,'' Jones said. ``They're a top-notch organization. They have everyone's rights guarded and protected. My comments were mine and my mistake was, I think, saying them publicly.''

[TimmyB]

While I think he sounds like a knucklehead, there are probably lots of people out there who think he is "right on." Welcome to America.

But, I wonder, why do people get so upset when baseball players say stupid or un-PC things? The guy is a pitcher for the Rockies, not a Cabinet member...

[Craig S.]

I think that all homosexuals in America will feel much better now that Jones has apologized to the Rockies and to his teammates. I can only imagine how badly those poor players and admininstrators were by his his words.

If baseball players are no longer the voice of reason, who can we possibly turn to?

[Gosfgiants]

Originally posted by TimmyB
But, I wonder, why do people get so upset when baseball players say stupid or un-PC things? The guy is a pitcher for the Rockies, not a Cabinet member...

Or third in the ranks of the Senate Republican leadership. If you want see some insensative remarks towards homosexuals take a look at Rick Santorum has to say. Jones is small potatoes compared to him.

BTW, for some reason I am still amazed at how closed minded some people can be in this country. Of course I then remind myself that is why I live in SF.

[satchel]

newsflash: some baseball players and some elected members of the U.S. government think gay rights are not a worthy cause.

newsflash: many Americans outside of those elite ranks agree with them.

The point that was made above, that this is just a ballplayer - not someone with the power or desire to influence policy decisions at the highest level, not someone making hiring and firing decisions in a corporation, etc. - is a good one.

Again, I ask that all NDF posters respect the ban on politics. Having said that, here are what I see as salient and interesting points for discussion:

1. Todd Jones made a comment that was arguably stupid and insensitive, but also arguably raised his esteem in the eyes of people who will perceive him as having "told it like it is."

2. His employer, the Colorado Rockies, issued a nonresponse, a statement that they oppose discrimination on the basis of just about every conceivable category except the one Jones attacked. Don't you just find this fascinating?

3. Almost certainly under pressure from someone, though possibly not the Rockies, Jones apologized - not for his views, but for airing them. In other words, I'm sorry I got in trouble.

[Craig S.]

Originally posted by satchel
3. Almost certainly under pressure from someone, though possibly not the Rockies, Jones apologized - not for his views, but for airing them. In other words, I'm sorry I got in trouble.

I still can't believe he said that. And I find it interesting that none of the columnists I regularly read have chosen to comment. Seems like a big target, but I guess the subject is one they feel they're better off not touching.

[sweaver]

Rob Neyer's take...and BTW, I agree with him:
http://msn.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/neyer_rob/1547343.html

Americans have the right of free speech. And the first openly gay ballplayer WILL be a hero, because he will blaze a trail in striking down prejudice. Because any statement to the effect that "THOSE people don't have what it takes" deserves to be openly challenged.

[Fuzzy Bear]

Originally posted by satchel
newsflash: some baseball players and some elected members of the U.S. government think gay rights are not a worthy cause.

newsflash: many Americans outside of those elite ranks agree with them.

The point that was made above, that this is just a ballplayer - not someone with the power or desire to influence policy decisions at the highest level, not someone making hiring and firing decisions in a corporation, etc. - is a good one.

Again, I ask that all NDF posters respect the ban on politics. Having said that, here are what I see as salient and interesting points for discussion:

Satchel, if you wished respect for the "ban on politics", your goal would have been better achieved by omitting the two "newsflashes" from your post. I don't open cans of worms unless it's time to go fishing.

This thread is about a PURELY POLITICAL ISSUE. It deals with the public comments of an athlete, his right (or lack of same) to say it, what consequences (if any) can he be forced to suffer as a result of his public opinions on this topic.

This thread also deals with a moral issue; the rightness or wrongness of Jones' comments, the rightness or wrongness of airing them publicly, and the political/moral question of human rights, human dignity, and human behavior.

This thread has nothing to do with baseball; baseball is just the background scenery here. I have no problem with this. Our founders pledged their lives, fortunes, and sacred honor to form a nation where, presumably, one would be free to speak without (at least) government sanction. I take no offense over whatever opinions are expressed.

These issues, one by one:

1. Did Jones have the right to say this? The Constitution says he does.

2. What consequences can he be forced to suffer? People have the right to bring the heat of public opinion against him. Sometimes, that can get very hot. If it does, too bad. However, if he has violated no specific clause of his contract, his baseball career, and his status on the roster should be judged by his playing abilities, alone.

3. Should he have said what he did? I certainly don't think so. The Bible says in Hebrews 12:14: "Make every effort to live in peace with ALL MEN (emphasis added) and to be holy; without holiness, no one will see the Lord". While it may well come to pass that an openly gay player will experience a hostile locker room and being thrown at, it is not making an effort to live peacably with all men to openly suggest that. (I certainly think that occurrances of that nature can be encouraged by public commentary. Violence is often as inevitable as people think it is.)

What I intensely dislike about threads like this is that it is OK for one side to be political but not the other. (That IS the essence of PC, is it not?) I take a Biblical view of Homosexuality, and while I do not agree with the entire politcal agenda of the "religious right" on this, I do not equate the "gay rights" issues with the civil rights issues pertaining to race and gender. I am saying this because these issues go beyond issues of equal rights in employment, housing, etc., which I support, to redifining marriage, which I do not support.

There is another implication in this. Are ballplayers (not the Todd Joneses and John Rockers of the world, but literate, thoughtful, socially conservative, politically active ballplayers) going to be attacked as Jones has for expressing an opposite point of view? If a ballplayer expresses an opinion on this issue in the context of a political campaign, is that going to be unremarkable, or is that going to be a matter for examining as to whether or not his contract can be voided?

[Craig S.]

Well said, Fuzzy. You're right in that it has very little to do with baseball, and more to do with far bigger issues.

[satchel]

Fuzzy, I'm sorry you misunderstood my post as somehow saying it's okay to express one opinion while not okay to express others. In fact, I was saying something quite different.

I thought the baseball aspects of this topic could be discussed without anyone making value judgments at all. We have done so before (click here (http://www.netshrine.com/vbulletin2/showthread.php?s=&threadid=9148&perpage=15) for an analogous example), but I guess it's not going to happen this time.

[sweaver]

As Satchel and Fuzzy seem to have summed things up here, and the discussion could only disintegrate, I will close it. Thanks to all for participating.