Should Schilling Pitch Game 4?

[NetShrine]

What's your call - and why?

It's interesting - - if you're Brenly, you want to pitch him - - - because he did not kill himself in Game 1 and, if you do pitch him and he wins, you're either:

up 3-1 or completed a sweep
(depending on the outcome of Game 3).

But, if he should fail on three days rest, and lose, then you're either:

tied 2-2 or up 3-1 (depending on the outcome of Game 3).

Seems if he pitches, mostly good things can happen - - for sure, even if he bombs, the worst it will be is 2-2 or 3-1. Both still excellent position..............

but, if you don't start him, and you lose both Games 3 and 4 (which is the worst you can do), it's still only 2-2, and it then becomes a BEST 2 OUT OF 3 - and you have Schilling and Unit well rested for two of the games - - not to mention that two of the games are home (and those games will be the 4th time the Yankees will have to go West in a span of four weeks).

It will be very interesting to see the call and how it works out.

I'm thinking I'd rather have him on 4 days rest for Game 5 than on three for Game 4 and then three for Game 7, if you need him.

What do you think?

[Yogi#8Fan]

As much as I hate admitting it, since Curt went 7, not 9 innings, he may be able to pull off 6 innings on Wednesday. Roger isn't as overwhelming as last year and Duke, who Curt would oppose, has been even less so, since he loses his edge after 4 innings.

Some pitchers perform well on 3 days' rest but not all. It's possible that Curt could not be up to little rest and be taken out early. He may also prove unhittablew which would make me want to ship him back to Phoenix well before the game is over.

David Wells wanted to take Hernandez' turn in 98 WS but Torre nixed this, giving Orlando his scheduled start. If Brenly believes in his 4th starter, that may work. As to whether I'd do this if I were him, I'd just say it all rests on how well he performs on 3 days' rest.

[BuzzBuzzard]

I don't start him until Game 5.

[NetShrine]

Originally posted by BuzzBuzzard
I don't start him until Game 5.

For the same reason I stated - or another reason?

[BuzzBuzzard]

Same as you.

[NetShrine]

Originally posted by BuzzBuzzard
Same as you.

:loud: October 29, 2001, a day that will go down in infamy!

[Duque]

Well, the DBacks have yet to use Batista out of the bullpen, so I'd guess he's still slated for Game 4. But - if Brian Anderson gets shellacked early tomorrow night, Brenly could easily go to Batista, knowing that Schilling would be [relatively] well rested to start Game 4.

[Yogi#8Fan]

Since hitting seems a very strong Yankee problem this year, I get the feeling that as the games progress, the Yankees will start hitting. They waited until the final game 5 against Seattle to blast off, 12-3. The prior games they hadn't scored anywhere near as much.

Given that Joe knows how to remove pitchers when they're in trouble, unlike last night when Andy got hit on his right knee then gave up a 3 run dinger, these games can be won.

If Curt comes in on the 5th game and Randy in 6, given that the Yankees are able to squeak past Arizona in games 3 and/or 4, I feel that the Yankee hitting should have arrived by then. I'll say that the Yankees have managed to beat Pedro Martinez, Maddux, Smoltz and a host of other unhittable pitchers.

For Moose/Schilling II, I'm expecting Moose much more relaxed and just throwing his good stuff as he did in Boston and YS facing Boston in September. If he does this, Andy does this in game 6, it may wind down to Roger Clemens in game 7. If that's the case, I'd say his hamstring problems had better be cured around then or I'll scream at the top of my lungs.

[NetShrine]

Originally posted by Duque
if Brian Anderson gets shellacked early tomorrow night, Brenly could easily go to Batista, knowing that Schilling would be [relatively] well rested to start Game 4.

Good prediction - - highly likely to come true, IMHO.

[CubFan7125]

I start Shilling in game 4 for several reasons:

- If you wait for game 5 to start him, he can't come back & pitch a 7th game if necessary.

- Always go with your best, 70% of Shilling is better than Anderson, 19 game loser Albie Lopez or whatever else they can throw out there.

- Go for the jugular, if your up 2-1 why risk evening up the series. If it's 3-0, finish em' off.
Today's useless trivia:


Q - Who holds the record for most errors in an inning?
A - Bob Brenly with 4(Bob was playing 3rd that day). Actually he holds a tie for the record, but I kind of liked that stat.

[BuzzBuzzard]

Originally posted by CubFan7125
- If you wait for game 5 to start him, he can't come back & pitch a 7th game if necessary.I hear you on this point and it is not without its merits, but what did you see that suggests there would be a game 7 if the D'Backs wait to start Schill until Game 5. I think it makes a Game 7 more likely to start Schill in Game 4, in which case you get him twice on short rest. No way I chance that. I'll take Schill and RJ on full rest in a best 2 out of 3 any day.

[NetShrine]

GREAT point/counter point CubFan/Buzz. You guys summed up both views perfectly. I'm going with Buzz :shockbig: - - I think you go for the win in 6 and worry about 7 if it happens.

[jpalexa]

Somebody clarify this number of "days rest" thing to me. With the travel day, wouldn't Schilling be on FOUR days rest for Game Four? Essentially, he'd be taking his turn in a four-man rotation.

[Yogi#8Fan]

Originally posted by jpalexa
Somebody clarify this number of "days rest" thing to me. With the travel day, wouldn't Schilling be on FOUR days rest for Game Four? Essentially, he'd be taking his turn in a four-man rotation. Game 1 was Saturday, so let's see:

Sat., game day.
Sun., game 2, one day's rest.
Mon., travel day, two day's rest.
Tue., game 3., 3 day's rest.
Wed., game 4., Schilling pitches again.

3 day's rest, meaning three whole 24-hour periods of nothing but R&R, TLC and whatever other mess he could've gotten himself into that the Natl Enquirer would pay six figures to report on for the next 6 months. Clear as mud now?

BTW, if he pitches both 1 & 4, he'd effectively be in a 3-man rotation, since that's how many would be used as SP's.

[Throwback]

Schilling is an old school hoss if any exist in today's game, and if anybody can do it, it's him. However, as a Cardinals fan, I've seen too many good, strong pitchers get absolutely SHELLED on three days' rest to think it's a very good idea to start Curt in game 4. Stottlemyre and Benes in the '96 NLCS should have taught La Russa a lesson, but he did it again last year with Kile, and all three recieved bad, bad beatings. It cost us two series. The D-Backs need their aces to win, and Schilling with full rest at home is a lot better bet than Schilling on short rest in Yankee Stadium. I think if you're Brenly, you have to take your chances with a couple of poor matchups with Anderson and Batista (although he's actually been better than Hernandez this year) and hope one of them picks off a game to take pressure off your aces. I actually like Arizona's chances with Batista vs. Hernandez, and I consider Curt's likelihood of being effective on 3 days rest to be about 50%. Add to that the chance that if he does get rocked, he might not be in his best mental state for a game 7 call, and it seems a very good idea to hold Curt off until game 5.

[b-ball-lunachik]

I agree with Throwback, Buzz and Net ... I wouldn't pitch him in Game 4 for many of the reasons already given:

-- Main reason as Net said, the worst that can happen is that you have an even series where the Yankees having to beat your two best pitchers on their full rest....two pitchers who completely dominated the Yankees less than a week ago....

-- Playoff history shows the esteemed group of pitchers who have failed on 3 days rest. If you think he will overcome those odds once, he will then have to do it again if it goes to a game 7. Not likely to me. And like Throwback says, if he loses game 4, his confidence is diminished....not to mention the Yankee offense's confidence is increased.

-- Whether he pitches Game 4 or Game 5 is going to be interesting to me how he reacts to the temperature change where it was in the 90s the other day in Arizona. Tonight and tomorrow (for Game 4), it's going to drop into the low to upper 40s during the games at Yankee Stadium, but Thursday night, it will be in the upper 50s -- a full 10 degrees higher...

As a Yankee fan, I'm hoping to win the game tonight first of all...I don't like how the media and people are skipping right over this game. The Yankees haven't shown that they are capable of winning anything yet in this Series. We have good numbers agains their pitcher tonight, and I hope it carries over into tonight, we play crisp defense and Clemens has good stuff tonight.

Another question for Brenly....if the Yankees win tonight, and he decides to pitch Schilling on short rest tomorrow, is it automatic that Johnson pitches Thursday at Yankee stadium regardless of the outcome of Game 4? does he consider holding Johnson off until Game 6 since it's a lefty in Yankee Stadium, with a shorter porch in colder temperatures with the DH in the lineup. Plus, he would be getting an extra day of rest with the off day...

Just a thought...like I said as a Yankee fan, I'd prefer to see Schilling pitch on shorter rest, and then Johson on short rest as well...

[NetShrine]

Good question on Johnson. If Schilling goes in 4, you have to have someone for 5 - - and, Johnson did go 9 in 2, so, it would be a bigger push for him.

Perhaps it would then be Batista in 5 and Johnson in 6 and Schilling back in 7?

Having Johnson and Schilling as you last two pitchers would be idea for Arizona.

[Yogi#8Fan]

Originally posted by NetShrine
Good question on Johnson. If Schilling goes in 4, you have to have someone for 5 - - and, Johnson did go 9 in 2, so, it would be a bigger push for him.

Perhaps it would then be Batista in 5 and Johnson in 6 and Schilling back in 7?

Having Johnson and Schilling as you last two pitchers would be idea for Arizona. I get the feeling that this call would still be very much up in air with Brenly.

I find the Batista in 5, Unit in 6 and Curt in 7 to be flawed, since that would require Backs to lose 3 out of 4 next games to force a 7th and deciding game. I think if Brenly really wanted to put away the Yanks, he'd put Curt in 5 and Randy in 6.

The only way I would think of Curt doing game 4 is if he does 5 innings, if his scouts tell him that Hernandez isn't up to the task. If Gonzo can go yard on Orlando, then Curt merely needs to keep the opposing score to 1 or 2 runs and he'd have done his job.

The problem with game 5 is that Curt would be expected to face Moose again, who could probably regain his confidence and become more the Mussina they'd brought in to play and win the big games. Andy, another big game pitcher, would follow him so both Curt in 4 and in 5 seem to have their downsides, I feel.

[BuzzBuzzard]

Originally posted by NetShrine
Having Johnson and Schilling as you last two pitchers would be idea for Arizona. Disagree because the underlying premise is going with Schill on short rest and there is no upside in doing that. Having Johnson and Schill for 6 and 7 does you good only if it goes 7.

This is so cut and dry for me I don't get the issue. Brenly would be an absolute fool to do anything but start these guys in 5 and 6 and let the chips fall where they may.

[jpalexa]

Originally posted by Yogi#8Fan
Game 1 was Saturday, so let's see:

Sat., game day.
Sun., game 2, one day's rest.
Mon., travel day, two day's rest.
Tue., game 3., 3 day's rest.
Wed., game 4., Schilling pitches again.

3 day's rest, meaning three whole 24-hour periods of nothing but R&R, TLC and whatever other mess he could've gotten himself into that the Natl Enquirer would pay six figures to report on for the next 6 months. Clear as mud now?

BTW, if he pitches both 1 & 4, he'd effectively be in a 3-man rotation, since that's how many would be used as SP's.

Oh, so you don't count the day of the next start as a day of rest? The way I figure it, he gets about 93 hours of rest -- nearly four days.

I was suggesting a four-man rotation where each pitcher takes his turn on subsequent days. In that case, Pitcher 1 pitches on Day 1 and Day 5 -- just as Schilling would (will) be.

[NetShrine]

Originally posted by BuzzBuzzard
This is so cut and dry for me I don't get the issue. Brenly would be an absolute fool to do anything but start these guys in 5 and 6 and let the chips fall where they may.

Many reports tonight, this AM, have Schilling going in Game 4. It will be interesting.

[b-ball-lunachik]

Originally posted by NetShrine


Many reports tonight, this AM, have Schilling going in Game 4. It will be interesting.

Yup...it looks like Schilling will go tonight and that decision will probably be the biggest factor in which way this series goes...

Another thing they pointed out on the postgame is the weakest part of Arizona's team is their long relief...pitching Schilling on short rest exposes them to a greater risk of having to use that part of their pen...

I think Brenly is making a mistake here but it's good for the Yanks. Then again, who knows...the odds are, pitchers don't do well on short rest, but the law of averages, maybe Schilling is the guy to do well (can you tell I'm superstitious ;) )...but I'm glad Brenly is going this way... law of averages says the Yankees should hit some next game too!! ;)

[CubFan7125]

In response why I think there will be a game 7. I have no idea if there will be or not, but I remember Frank Viola out there for the Twins in games 1,4,7 in 87 & glad he was. Also as manager I take all possibilities into consideration, & a possible game 7 is one of them.

[BuzzBuzzard]

Brenly is a fool. Even if the D'Backs win tonight, it is the wrong decision.

[satchel]

Originally posted by Yogi#8Fan

The only way I would think of Curt doing game 4 is if he does 5 innings, if his scouts tell him that Hernandez isn't up to the task. If Gonzo can go yard on Orlando, then Curt merely needs to keep the opposing score to 1 or 2 runs and he'd have done his job.


The flaw in this reasoning is that after the 5th inning, it's a battle between the bullpens, which I think is a battle the Yankees win. If Schilling pitches, I think Brenly expects him to hand the ball directly to Byung-Hyun Kim, do not pass Mike Morgan, do not collect $200.

Like others on this board, I can't understand the logic of using Schilling in game 4. It looks like a rookie manager over-thinking instead of putting his trust in his guys. Batista should have earned Brenly's confidence this postseason.

As others have pointed out, it looks like Brenly is maneuvering for a game 7 instead of trying to put the Yankees away in 6 or fewer. Is he going to use Johnson on short rest too in game 5? if not, and Batista pitches game 5, then he's gained nothing by using Schilling in game 4.

[BuzzBuzzard]

I heard Brenly say this morning that Batista warmed up a few times last night and was concerned at his readiness. I also heard Schilling say that he felt 'good enough' to pitch, then corrected himself to say he felt 'fine, ready.' Frightening.

[b-ball-lunachik]

Quote from today's Daily News:

http://www.nydailynews.com/2001-10-31/Metro_Sports/Baseball/a-130474.asp

"The numbers will show over the past two or three years that it's not a good gamble and some very good pitchers — the aces of some staffs — have failed coming back on short rest," Brenly said. "But I believe that Curt Schilling is a different animal, at this time of year, this season."


I hope for Brenly's sake that animal doesn't turn out to be a goat! :D ;)

[NetShrine]

Originally posted by b-ball-lunachik
"The numbers will show over the past two or three years that it's not a good gamble and some very good pitchers — the aces of some staffs — have failed coming back on short rest," Brenly said. "But I believe that Curt Schilling is a different animal, at this time of year, this season."

Schilling may be different - - but, no way will he be dominant in this spot. No chance of a CG with 16 Ks, for sure. He may get past the 4th inning? But, at best, I think he's good for 6 innings and 3 runs. Then, the pen takes over. Question is: can Orlando Hernandez match or better him?

Regardless, I'm sure Mussina is thrilled to be pitching Game 5 now.

[NetShrine]

Snipped this from Rob Neyer's column - good stats:

Two of Schilling's postseason starts have come after the normal four days of rest, but another came after five days and another after seven days.

Schilling's best start of the season, statistically at least, came on April 10 against the Dodgers: complete game, two hits, zero walks, 10 strikeouts. After five days' rest.

Schilling's second-best start of the season came on May 26, after four days' rest.

Schilling's third-best start of the season came on July 21 against the Giants: seven innings, one hit, two walks, 12 strikeouts. After two days' rest.

Two days' rest? Yes, but with an explanation. Schilling started in San Diego on July 18, but the game was postponed after two innings -- in which Schilling threw 27 pitches -- when electrical explosions knocked out the left-field lights at Qualcomm. So when Schilling started again on the 21st, it had been been seven days since his last real start (120 pitches).

[BuzzBuzzard]

Originally posted by NetShrine


Schilling may be different - - but, no way will he be dominant in this spot. No chance of a CG with 16 Ks, for sure. He may get past the 4th inning? But, at best, I think he's good for 6 innings and 3 runs. You forgot the 'IMO' unless you know this for certain.

[NetShrine]

Originally posted by BuzzBuzzard
You forgot the 'IMO' unless you know this for certain.

What if I told you I was certain? :loud:

[BuzzBuzzard]

I'd refer you to MY user title!

[Yogi#8Fan]

Originally posted by b-ball-lunachik
Quote from today's Daily News:

http://www.nydailynews.com/2001-10-31/Metro_Sports/Baseball/a-130474.asp

"The numbers will show over the past two or three years that it's not a good gamble and some very good pitchers — the aces of some staffs — have failed coming back on short rest," Brenly said. "But I believe that Curt Schilling is a different animal, at this time of year, this season."


I hope for Brenly's sake that animal doesn't turn out to be a goat! :D ;) B-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a.

[jpalexa]

Looks like the only thing Brenly did wrong with regards to Schilling is take him out one inning too early....

[jpalexa]

Originally posted by satchel
<snip>

As others have pointed out, it looks like Brenly is maneuvering for a game 7 instead of trying to put the Yankees away in 6 or fewer. Is he going to use Johnson on short rest too in game 5? if not, and Batista pitches game 5, then he's gained nothing by using Schilling in game 4.

Good point -- it is curious why Brenly would push like hell to get Schilling back on the hill as soon as possible, but not consider/use Johnson with the same amount of rest. Then again, Brenly's inexplicable handling of Kim (61 pitches?!?) might reveal what kind of manager and/or pitching staff we are dealing with here.

[willyg]

The closer for the Diamondbacks tonight is named Randy Johnson.

[NetShrine]

Originally posted by willyg
The closer for the Diamondbacks tonight is named Randy Johnson.

Dude - that's twice now. No way. He can't come in, throw 20 pitches, ice it down, get on a plane, and pitch again two days later - and have a full tank.

A throw day and closing a Series game are not the same toll on a body.

[BuzzBuzzard]

I am with WillyG on this one. If one or two out is all that is needed, you have to consider Unit. These are not normal times.

[willyg]

I do not think there is any question that this will happen.

He has to throw today. Normally that would be done before the game on the side somewhere. I say no way that happens. Wait and let the game dictate when he does his throwing. Yanks are up 10 runs, he throws sometime during the game just to get his work. This is a one, two run game late (I'm talking Arizona with a lead in the ninth, or possibly part of the eighth) you will see Big Unit.

Game 2/6 starters have the EXTRA day of rest, games like this are won/lost/played on more emotion and heart than anything else.

If this is a one run game in the bottom of the ninth Randy will be in there.

Maybe you are correct this will not happen (heck I hope it doesn't even come to this, because if Randy is in things are not looking too good) but I think it is the only move here.

Brenley has been managing for Game 7 the entire time. You have a chance to get Game 5 go get it. Say you have Unit not at 100%, and lose. Well then you have winner take all with Schilling for Game 7.

I think Brenley has to do everything in his power to win this game.

[NetShrine]

If he's pitching to one batter, yeah, sure, it can be done. But, if you thnk the Unit is going to be able to give you a 2 inning save tonight and then pitch on Saturday, no way jose....... Well, not that it can't happen - - just that it will effect him when he pitches Sat. Why do that?

And, if you're going to use him just get one LH - or two. Why not use Swindell? He's had some success v. the Yankee LH hitters - sans Justice. But, Justice sucks now anyway. (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/bvsp?pitcherId=1761)

[willyg]

Win today's game today, worry about tomorrow tomorrow, and if you get beat, do so with your best.

Do not leave bullets in the chamber. Do not leave the Benz in the garage.

*****

A few good lines.

Dan Shaughnessy from the Boston Globe summed it up pretty well.

"Jeter's 10th-inning, two-out blast on a 3-2 pitch from Byung-Hyun Kim (apparently that's Korean for ''Schiraldi'') gave the Yankees a 4-3 victory over Arizona and tied the 97th World Series at two games apiece."

Some guy from the Yankee Game last night.

"The only thing Justice can hit right now is Halle Berry."

[NetShrine]

:atd: We'll have to agree to disagree on this one Will - - I have to get back to work! One last statement 'tho - - I know, play for today. But, the D-backs still need two to win it - - and a full tank Randy on Sat is their best shot at getting a win out of these three remaining games.

[jpalexa]

Originally posted by NetShrine


Dude - that's twice now. No way. He can't come in, throw 20 pitches, ice it down, get on a plane, and pitch again two days later - and have a full tank.

A throw day and closing a Series game are not the same toll on a body.

Explain why these *aren't* the same on a body. If, instead of "throwing" (whatever that involves -- I don't know if that means he doesn't go full-bore, and I don't know how many pitches that entails -- that's why I need it explained!) completely the day of the game, Johnson is in the bullpen -- if needed -- for an inning or so. If AZ needs him, he warms up, throws his 20-30 pitches in the game. If they don't need him, he "throws" after the game. What is the diff?

Gotta agree with Buzz and WillyG -- desperate times call for desperate measures. I just don't see how this is so desperate.

And I ask this again: Why wouldn't Brenly pitch Johnson in Game 5 if he was so hot on pitching Schilling in Game 4? Maybe it has to do with Johnson's physiology? Number of pitches in Game 2?

[NetShrine]

Originally posted by jpalexa
Explain why these *aren't* the same on a body.

Throwing off a bullpen mound, for 20 minutes or so, with no batter, no crowd, no umpire, no national TV audience, and, most importantly, no pressure to retire a batter - - and doing so merely with the intent of maintaining arm muscle and avoiding the build up of adhesions is a lot different from standing on a mound, in front of 56,000 screaming fans, countless others on TV, putting all your effort behind every pitch, dealing with the pressure of needing to be perfect on every pitch - because one mistake may mean the series. Again, this is just my opinion. Others may see it different.

[satchel]

Originally posted by willyg


<snip>

Byung-Hyun Kim (apparently that's Korean for ''Schiraldi'')

<snip>



:loud: that's excellent.

[Yogi#8Fan]

http://espn.go.com/mlb/playoffs2001/s/2001/1101/1272176.html

Thursday, November 1
Schilling: 'I was running on fumes'
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
By Jayson Stark
ESPN.com


NEW YORK -- What we saw on television late Wednesday night was Curt Schilling telling his manager he wanted to go out to pitch the eighth inning of a classic World Series game.

What we didn't see was Schilling's conversations with the coaching staff and with his catcher that preceded that made-for-TV event -- and led directly to the heavily second-guessed decision by Bob Brenly to replace Schilling with closer Byung-Hyun Kim.

We know how that move turned out. Kim became the first pitcher ever to allow a game-tying home run with two outs in the ninth inning of a World Series game and then an extra-inning game-ender in the same game. And Brenly has taken major heat over a proper call that just happened to turn out all wrong.

But it was only the next day that the whole story behind that decision emerged.

Brenly told Arizona beat writers Thursday afternoon that what Schilling actually said after the seventh inning was: "I can go out there, but don't hang me out."

Meanwhile, his catcher, Damian Miller, said that after an exhausting seventh inning in which he threw 18 pitches, Schilling told him: "Man, I'm spent."

And Schilling himself admitted Thursday his arm was much wearier after throwing 88 pitches in a tense Game 4 than it was after 102 pitches in a Game 1 blowout.

"Last night," he said, "was a whole different animal than Game 1. In the sixth and seventh innings, every pitch I made -- after the first hitter got on -- was everything I had."

At another point, he said: "I thought I was clear. I told him I was running on fumes -- but I felt I had an inning.

"I'm glad he (Brenly) had to make that decision," Schilling said, finally, "and I didn't."

He was probably doubly glad if he read the New York papers yesterday, where it's safe to say nobody was nominating Brenly for any posteason manager-of-the-year awards.

Later, Brenly reacted to all that second-guessing by snapping: "When I was up in the booth, I made it a point to never second-guess. If you cannot point something out ahead of time, it becomes the lowest form of journalism, as far as I'm concerned, to come in after the fact and say what should have happened."

To the national media, Brenly said he took Schilling out based on how his pitcher looked on the mound in a draining seventh inning. But to the Arizona media, Brenly said it was a combination of what Schilling said and what the manager saw with his own eyes.

Of Schilling's statement that he could go out there "but don't hang me out," Brenly said his interpretation was that Schilling "meant that he was just willing to go out there and gut it out. Which we did not want him to do."

And the big reason he didn't want him to do it was that he saw Schilling reach back to pitch himself out of a seventh-inning crisis with his hardest fastballs of the night -- four of which were clocked at 97 or 98 miles per hour. He'd been around 94 most of the night before that.

"I started to see some signs that he was losing it a little bit," Brenly said. "His splitter wasn't as sharp, his location wasn't as good with the fastball, they were getting better swings on him.

"That's the one thing about pitching a guy on three days' rest, from what I've seen in the past: once it goes, it's gone. There's no reserve tank, there's no second wind. Once a guy starts to lose his effectiveness, lose his movement and location, he's not going to be able to get it back."

Schilling didn't necessarily endorse that theory, though, saying: "A lot of times, when you feel like that, you'll go out and have a three-pitch inning and get a second wind. But he (Brenly) didn't have that luxury of knowing that would happen."

Schilling said several times that he felt his manager had made "the right move -- until the last out." But he also admitted he never wants to leave a game and doesn't want the other team to think he ever wants to exit.

"I always feel like that," he said. "That's my nine innings. I always feel like whoever they bring in from the 'pen, I have better stuff than him. But that's just me. I'm supposed to feel that way."

He said he and Kim later had a conversation about how this seemingly great night turned to disaster.

"He tried to apologize to me," Schilling said. "But there's no reason to apologize. You only apologize if you didn't give everything you had, and I know he did that."

Eighteen hours earlier, Schilling had found himself one out from history, one out from becoming the first pitcher ever to win five games in one postseason, one out from placing his name alongside Gibson and Koufax and Morris among the great October pitchers of all time.

Then Tino Martinez hit a two-run home run off Kim with two outs in the ninth that changed everything. And one very long night later, Schilling found himself back in the dugout of Yankee Stadium, trying to digest it all.

Asked if he could describe his range of emotions after Martinez's home run disappeared beyond the fence, Schilling said: "I didn't have a range of emotion. It (stunk). It's disappointing. ... Everyone is talking about Derek's homer. But I wasn't even thinking about that one. We had one out to go (before Martinez homered). And mystique and aura showed up dancing at the ballpark."

It was just last Friday, you may recall, that Schilling had downplayed the fabled Yankees mythology, saying that "when you use those words, 'mystique' and 'aura,' those are dancers in a night club. Those are not things we concern ourselves on the ballfield."

But he found out all about that mystique and aura Wednesday. Too bad he was in no position to appreciate them, and in no mood to digest the historical context of an epic game.

"I know it was a great game," he said. "But depending on your vantage point, it was better for one side than it was for the other. I've played in two games now that could be called historic in a World Series (this one and the fabled Joe Carter Game in 1993). And unfortunately, I've been on the wrong end of both."

So he didn't fall asleep until the dawn's early light -- and the television's unfriendly glow. And who could blame him?

"This morning, I fell asleep," he said, "right after I watched that home run go out again. I kept thinking if I watched ESPN enough, that ball would get caught. But it didn't happen."

Jayson Stark is a senior writer for ESPN.com.

[willyg]

I absolutely detest "I told ya so" people, so please do not take it that way.

The situation I was talking about developed tonight, apparently Bob Brenly did not agree with me, although from what I read in the Daily News Randy Johnsson made the offer.

I think my view came from being so influenced by this Torre run. I just believe that you always go down with your best. As dissapointed as I will be if the Yankees do not win this series if they lose a Game 7 with Mariano giving up a hit and Arizona winning I will deal with it. I just always want my best out there.

For Arizona in Games 6 and 7 the Yankees MUST if they win, get their big hit off Schilling or Johnson. It really has to be that way. These are "all-hand on deck" games. If the situation arises I assure you that Torre will not hesitate to use El Duque or Mussina or anyone.

[jpalexa]

Originally posted by NetShrine


Throwing off a bullpen mound, for 20 minutes or so, with no batter, no crowd, no umpire, no national TV audience, and, most importantly, no pressure to retire a batter - - and doing so merely with the intent of maintaining arm muscle and avoiding the build up of adhesions is a lot different from standing on a mound, in front of 56,000 screaming fans, countless others on TV, putting all your effort behind every pitch, dealing with the pressure of needing to be perfect on every pitch - because one mistake may mean the series. Again, this is just my opinion. Others may see it different.

I was just wondering from the *physical* perspective what was different -- the intensity of the throws? I assume that all of the mental stuff doesn't require four days rest...or two, in the case that we are talking about.

Either way, I guess this is all irrelevant. Unless one contends that Brenly should have brought in Johnson instead of Kim last night...!