View Full Version : Neyer's BIG Book of Baseball Lineups
gyb13
05-19-2002, 02:33 PM
From his website:
I recently signed a contract to write a book for Simon and Schuster. Tentatively titled Rob Neyer's Big Book of Baseball Lineups, the idea is that if you want to know who was the best defensive shortstop in Cardinals history, or the best rookie left fielder in Cubs history, or the sixth-best starting pitcher in Red Sox history ... well, you can find it here. I'm supposed to finish the book in July and I've still got a ton of work left, which doesn't leave much room for things like answering e-mail. Or sleeping. But it'll be worth it, I hope, when the book hits the shelves about a year from now.
sweaver
05-19-2002, 10:27 PM
Sounds interesting, but is it about "lineups," or about ranking players for teams? I have been mildly disappointed in the Neyer books I have read, but I'll probably get this one, too.
Slippery Pedro
05-19-2002, 10:42 PM
Could be just me, but, I've usually found books with the title preface "Big Book of.........." always missing something obvious on the inside.
At the least, the book will make for good debate and thought - - and, that's always fun.
Originally posted by sweaver
Sounds interesting, but is it about "lineups," or about ranking players for teams? I have been mildly disappointed in the Neyer books I have read, but I'll probably get this one, too. Yeah, that confused me too. The title doesnt seem to synch with the content. I hope he's been working on this for a while before signing the deal. This doesnt sound like a book to do (well) between now and July!
gyb13
06-02-2002, 04:56 AM
Originally posted by Slippery Pedro
At the least, the book will make for good debate and thought - - and, that's always fun.
....and also seems like something Neyer's been shooting for as of late.
NCFella19
08-20-2002, 10:35 PM
Originally posted by gyb13
From his website:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I recently signed a contract to write a book for Simon and Schuster. Tentatively titled Rob Neyer's Big Book of Baseball Lineups, the idea is that if you want to know who was the best defensive shortstop in Cardinals history, or the best rookie left fielder in Cubs history, or the sixth-best starting pitcher in Red Sox history ... well, you can find it here. I'm supposed to finish the book in July and I've still got a ton of work left, which doesn't leave much room for things like answering e-mail. Or sleeping. But it'll be worth it, I hope, when the book hits the shelves about a year from now.
Any word on Neyer's new one yet?
sweaver
08-20-2002, 11:58 PM
When he gets it done, he will certainly mention it in his espn.com column.
samd65
08-26-2002, 10:00 AM
Originally posted by sweaver
Sounds interesting, but is it about "lineups," or about ranking players for teams? I have been mildly disappointed in the Neyer books I have read, but I'll probably get this one, too.
Can you please elaborate?
I read "Baseball Dynasties" and I though it was a great book. I loved the way Neyer & Epstein combined historical description with analysis.
sweaver
08-26-2002, 12:00 PM
Originally posted by samd65
Can you please elaborate?
BD was good, but did little to greatly illuminate the teams, IMO. The mathematical analysis was pretty simple, although certainly it was the best done to date to select a "best team."
I think I was more disappointed in Neyer's solo work, "Green Monster." It seemed awfully self-indulgent in places. He is certainly not a writer of the quality of an Angell or Boswell, and Rob would surely be the first to admit that. But where, in his espn.com essays, they are short enough as to prevent extensive digression, I thought this book had far too many, and that will certainly date the book as time goes on.
KCBOOMER
08-26-2002, 12:44 PM
I am sure it will give us plenty to talk about.
samd65
08-26-2002, 12:53 PM
Originally posted by sweaver
BD was good, but did little to greatly illuminate the teams, IMO. The mathematical analysis was pretty simple, although certainly it was the best done to date to select a "best team."
I think I was more disappointed in Neyer's solo work, "Green Monster." It seemed awfully self-indulgent in places. He is certainly not a writer of the quality of an Angell or Boswell, and Rob would surely be the first to admit that. But where, in his espn.com essays, they are short enough as to prevent extensive digression, I thought this book had far too many, and that will certainly date the book as time goes on.
I agree that literature isn't Neyer's strong side. What I like his esseys for is his analitical approach. When "Green Monster" came out I didn't think it was analitical so I didn't bother reading it.
From the little I read about his next book it looks like it is going to be an analitical book, so I am looking forword for it.
Rajah
04-15-2003, 02:07 PM
Now available at amazon for preordering. Surprisingly cheap also.
I'm looking forward to this one. Unfortunately, amazon is giving it a pretty weak treatment. No advance info is available.
here's the link, via netshrine:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/external-search/104-0107878-6447165?mode=blended&keyword=big+book+of+baseball+lineups&tag=netshrinecom-20
and just to be safe, here's another link (via netshrine):
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0743241746/qid=1050430029/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_1/104-0107878-6447165?v=glance&s=books
I expect to read it, probably to buy it, but am not really expecting it to be that good. Can't really say why, just a gut reaction.
sweaver
04-15-2003, 02:46 PM
Probably because Neyer's other books, while readable, have been nothing special. He is a servicable writer, but not an exceptional one.
I have put this on my Amazon wish list, and will reserve judgment about ordering it. Perhaps after it is released there will be more information on it.
sweaver
04-28-2003, 02:47 PM
According to amazon.com, this one is now available. Anybody got it/getting it?
JamesI
04-28-2003, 02:52 PM
I've ordered it, but to save money on shipping its waiting for another ordered item, so I won't be able to read it for another week or 2 (which is ok with finals now anyway)
Craig S.
04-28-2003, 03:04 PM
Since the price is right, I'll probably end up buying this one. I'm not all that excited about reading it, mainly due to Neyer's lack of writing ability.
I've still got books by Kahn and Angell lined up, and Louis Masur's book about the 1903 World Series will be out in a month. Reading Neyer after Kahn and Angell will seem like a big step back, at least in terms of language.
FWIW, Rob Neyer (at least I assume it's really him) is participating in a chat on this book on B-Primer right now. He says that to be included on the lineup as a best-ever for a team, the requirement was that you play for that team at least 3 years. This makes, for instance, Fred McGriff the Braves greatest 1B ever. I think the time constraint is far too small ... and this alone will probably stop me from buying the book. Kudos to Rob (or bizarro Rob at least) for just being there, since most comments were lukewarm at best.
Skip, Rob comes by once in a while there. Steve Goldman from YES also stops by. I'm not a Braves historian, but I think that they've historically had high turnover at the cold corner.
JamesI
04-28-2003, 07:30 PM
Ok, if Skip heard right that he based his lineups on 3 years, that I don't like. Roberto Alomar best ever 2b in Baltimore ?(well most talented ever but 3 years is not a long time)
Actually, Rob's quote was "With a few specific exceptions, I wouldn't consider a player for a franchise's all-time team unless he spent at least three seasons with the team." I suppose that means some guys with even less than three years got in.
JamesI
04-28-2003, 10:07 PM
Originally posted by Skip
Actually, Rob's quote was "With a few specific exceptions, I wouldn't consider a player for a franchise's all-time team unless he spent at least three seasons with the team." I suppose that means some guys with even less than three years got in.
I hope those exceptions are for obvious cases (ARod for Texas, he will be when his contract expires)
gyb13
04-29-2003, 02:41 PM
Originally posted by GGC
I'm not a Braves historian, but I think that they've historically had high turnover at the cold corner. true dat:
http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/ATL/pos.shtml
the only significant tenure was 1897-1907 by fred tenney
the longest since then has been 5 yrs (chambliss)
Originally posted by sweaver
Probably because Neyer's other books, while readable, have been nothing special. He is a servicable writer, but not an exceptional one.
I saw Neyer's book in Border's yesterday while looking for "Moneyball." I picked it up for <$16. Basically, Rob covers all the teams and list their best 1b, 2b, etc.. He also lists the 2nd team, the all-rookie team, all-bust team, and a couple of other lineups for each franchise. He also adds a few anecdotes for each team. The appendix is cool. It has a year by year list of each teams starters a la baseballreference.com, but in book form.
I'm no literary critic, but it would seem to me that Rob won't be mentioned in the same sentence as Salinger or Faulkner too often. But I kinda like his style. What would I grade this book? B-, I guess.
PS- SmedIndy, no mention of the 19th Century.
Craig S.
05-02-2003, 04:24 PM
Originally posted by GGC
I'm no literary critic, but it would seem to me that Rob won't be mentioned in the same sentence as Salinger or Faulkner too often. But I kinda like his style. What would I grade this book? B-, I guess.
Does he discuss his choices in great depth, or just quickly? I'd hope there's some "meat" to this, otherwise it's just a book of lists.
Originally posted by Craig S.
Does he discuss his choices in great depth, or just quickly? I'd hope there's some "meat" to this, otherwise it's just a book of lists.
Rather quickly, Craig, with sidebar comments on some of the selections plus a longer essay about some aspect of each team. For example, there's an essay in the Angel's section about "THe Curse of the Singing Cowboy." Honestly, I haven't read the whole thing yet. My advice to someone on the fence about this book would be to go to a bookstore and flip through some of it and see if you'd like it.
JamesI
05-05-2003, 01:00 PM
Got this today, will put up my review after I read the enitre Orioles section and a few others.
SmedIndy
05-05-2003, 01:06 PM
Originally posted by GGC
PS- SmedIndy, no mention of the 19th Century.
:(
JamesI
05-10-2003, 10:14 PM
Originally posted by Skip
Actually, Rob's quote was "With a few specific exceptions, I wouldn't consider a player for a franchise's all-time team unless he spent at least three seasons with the team." I suppose that means some guys with even less than three years got in.
Having read it now, the less than 3 year exceptions were almost always for DHs since teams have had high turnover at DH.
SmedIndy
05-15-2003, 09:57 AM
Just got it - I've read a few chapters. It's a lot better than Feeding the Green Monster .
It's fighting with a History of English Kings and Queens, the history of the Beatles on Apple Records in the USA, and a book on the No Depression movement in rock and roll for my time.
JamesI
05-15-2003, 12:16 PM
I disagree with some of his choices, but there aren't any bad choices. I can see his point of view on the cases I disagree with.
SmedIndy
05-20-2003, 10:02 AM
Almost through this (put aside other things because it's an easier read).
I like it - though reading some of the credits it looks like he didn't write some of it. (In fact, some sections reminded me a bit of a bit on Monty Python's Flying Circus when they were sending up David Frost with "Timmy Williams' Coffee Time and had the credits "Entirely Written by Timmy Williams" and then "other material by"...and they listed about 600 names, but I digress..)
I think to the people not familiar with Neyer and/or those who do not have a sense of baseball history, it will be shocking that he listed some players ahead of "names". I'm also disappointed at the lack of 19th century players. Some of the teams could have used them!
And it's also surprising on how weak some teams have been at certain positions in their history!
You also wonder why he bothered with the Devil Rays and Diamondbacks, unless they think this can be revised and expanded every 5 to 10 years or so.
Wolf Hopper
06-09-2003, 12:49 PM
Here's some of the info from the book:
http://sports.espn.go.com/chat/sportsnation/neyer/story?page=Neyer-030606
JamesI
06-09-2003, 01:09 PM
cool link.
Interesting to see that most people picked Cal as the greatest player to play in Baltimore ever (whole career not just time in Baltimore) over Frank. I wanted to vote Cal, but Frank is top 20 all time as a player...
Rajah
06-10-2003, 07:10 PM
I noted a strong tendency to pick current players in the polls. Just shows you that the people who read these things aren't too aware of baseball history in general, not to mention their own teams (I am assuming that a lot of people check out their favorite team, maybe a few others of interest, and then move on to other things). It also seems that in many cases, people are not influenced by who Rob picks, or simply don't even read what Rob has to say.
Rajah
06-10-2003, 07:12 PM
my bad, I just realized that they don't displays Rob's opinion until AFTER you vote.
nyy26wc
06-11-2003, 01:54 PM
Originally posted by Rajah
It also seems that in many cases, people are not influenced by who Rob picks, or simply don't even read what Rob has to say.
It can't happen in this particular case, for the reason you just pointed out, but I've noticed that when ESPN puts a poll with an article, there is a very strong connection between whatever opinion the article expresses and the people's choice.
Meanwhile, to show how easy it is to turn people into sheeps, a few years ago, the day the old farts committee met for cooperstown, ESPN.com asked who should be elected. With about 20,000 votes in, Gil Hodges had a very comfortable lead over Cepeda. Once it was announced that Cepeda was elected, by the time 30,000 votes were in, the sheep had allowed Cepeda to overcome a big deficit and build a decent size lead himself.
SmedIndy
06-11-2003, 11:43 PM
BAAAAAA!
SmedIndy
06-24-2003, 09:20 AM
By the way, I wrote Neyer this email:
I am a big fan of 19th century baseball (and your books and columns as well) and I was just wondering if you were going to post your explanation of why there are no 19th century players in the book soon.
The arbitrary starting point of 1901 seems to "invalidate" the accomplishments of those players in that century - and with all of the changes to the game even the pre-1920 records in wins and other categories seems totally out of step. That's why I was wondering your reasoning of discounting the 19th century players while allowing the careers of others who also played a game that is quite different than todays game.
Here is his reply:
I've got no defense. It was a decision hastily made, and it was a bad one.
When I post something, it'll be about the 19th-century players who *should* have been in the book.
regrets,
rob
gyb13
06-24-2003, 01:06 PM
the Guardian of the 19th century flame strikes again! :thumb:
nyyfanfrombirth
06-26-2003, 10:50 AM
That is one thing I really like about Neyer, he has absolutely no problem admitting mistakes.
Since the reviews here have been mostly positive, I'm going to pick up this book for a "plane-read." I'm going to Europe in 2 weeks, yippee!!
Wolf Hopper
08-07-2003, 08:30 PM
Just got this - - Tino over Donnie on the NYY Gold Glove team? No Jay Buhner on the "traded away" team for NY or Pittsburgh? Brien Taylor on the NYY all bust team? (You have to make the majors before you can be a all-time bust.) That's just on the 3 pages that I looked at first............Geesh!
JamesI
08-07-2003, 10:15 PM
For the amount of money Taylor got to never make the majors, he was a bust.
SmedIndy
08-07-2003, 10:58 PM
Quibble, quibble Wolfie. Remember he spans the entire 20th century - not just your lifetime.
And I think Tino may have been better, all in all, than Mattingly. Mattingly wasn't that great when he hurt his back.
Wolf Hopper
08-07-2003, 11:00 PM
Smed - he's talking just defense. Trust me, I saw Tino and Mattingly in their entire Yankee career, 100+ games each year, and, while Tino was solid, never make a mistake good, Donnie was "almost as good as Hernandez" good. Big difference.
sweaver
08-18-2003, 11:10 PM
Picked this up over the weekend, and finding it very enjoyable. It plays to Neyer's writing strength: short snippets of fact-filled tidbits.
SmedIndy
08-18-2003, 11:27 PM
Wolfie - what are the defensive win shares for Tino and Donny?
Wolf Hopper
08-19-2003, 07:48 AM
Wolfie - what are the defensive win shares for Tino and Donny?
Don't know and it would not matter to me - since I saw Tino and Mattingly in their entire Yankee career, 100+ games each year. I know what I saw and Donnie was much better.
SmedIndy
08-19-2003, 09:44 AM
The eyes can deceive, Wolfie. You should know that....
Soapy
08-19-2003, 09:52 AM
The eyes can deceive, Wolfie. You should know that....
Do win shares measure how many bad throws a 1st baseman saves?
I'm not that familiar with the method.
Kevin
KCBOOMER
08-19-2003, 10:11 AM
I enjoy Neyer and generally think of him as a poor man's Bill James. Yes, he should have included the 19th century guys and three years is not enough service time to be a team's all-time best at a position with the obvious exception of the the expansion teams of the last twenty years or so.
Wolf Hopper
08-19-2003, 10:17 AM
The eyes can deceive, Wolfie. You should know that....
Not when it comes to defense. There's not a stat out there on defense that can replace watching the guy, day-in, day-out, for the whole season, several years in a row.
Wolf Hopper
08-19-2003, 10:19 AM
Do win shares measure how many bad throws a 1st baseman saves? I'm not that familiar with the method.
Nope. That's where the eyes come into play. That, and measuring degree of difficulty in terms of the plays made.
Wolf Hopper
08-19-2003, 10:19 AM
I enjoy Neyer and generally think of him as a poor man's Bill James.
He likes to think the same thing, me thinks.
SmedIndy
08-19-2003, 10:28 AM
Not when it comes to defense. There's not a stat out there on defense that can replace watching the guy, day-in, day-out, for the whole season, several years in a row.
then how do you explain Jeter? Fans think he's great on D, but he's not.
Wolf Hopper
08-19-2003, 10:31 AM
then how do you explain Jeter? Fans think he's great on D, but he's not.
This fan, who watches him everyday, does not think he's great. Smedie, you're reaching here. Show me your proof that Martinez was better at 1st than Donnie.
Claims and boasts, without something to hang the hat on, do little for me.
gyb13
08-19-2003, 11:31 AM
hey, let's keep this to Neyer's book. you can discuss Mattingly x Tino elsewhere
huskerdru
08-19-2003, 01:27 PM
There's not a stat out there on defense that can replace watching the guy, day-in, day-out, for the whole season, several years in a row.
Be very careful!! Joe Morgan makes essentially the same argument (except on Offense) to explain why statistics are meaningless in general ;)
Hearing that Rob ranks Tino as the NYY GG 1B ahead of Mattingly does strike me as a bit strange...their error rates were actually strikingly similar, but Mattingly's range was far superior to Tino's. I don't have the Def Win Shares or Fielding Runs numbers handy, but I'm thinkin' they'll tell the same story. I'm interested to see his logic on this one.
I really liked Baseball Dynasties, and never read Feeding the Green Monster. I'll likely pick up the Big Book this fall, though.
Wolf Hopper
08-19-2003, 01:36 PM
It's a fun book, really, brings back some memories. But, it's far from perfect in terms of being the "source" for greatest line-ups, etc.
SmedIndy
08-19-2003, 02:15 PM
Husker - I really like it and a good book sparks conversations like the one Wolfie and I had. I'm sure in one night with a laptop and a few beverages we would have settled it.
gyb13
08-19-2003, 02:20 PM
Hearing that Rob ranks Tino as the NYY GG 1B ahead of Mattingly does strike me as a bit strange...their error rates were actually strikingly similar, but Mattingly's range was far superior to Tino's. I don't have the Def Win Shares or Fielding Runs numbers handy, but I'm thinkin' they'll tell the same story. I'm interested to see his logic on this one.it's probably based on Tino being ranked #1 all time in defensive win shares among 1B. for more on Tino x Donnie, see this thread: http://www.netshrine.com/vbulletin2/showthread.php?t=11341
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