At the end of the 1965 season ...

[pwdennis]

Willie Mays and Mickey Mantle had each appeared in 2005 games.
Mays had 505 hr - 1402 rbi - 1497 runs - .314 BA while the Mick's line read 473 hr - 1344 rbi - 1517 runs - .306 BA. Willie was coming off his career best season in home runs whereas the oft injured Mick was coming off his worse season ever. In fact, going into the 1965 season Mantle had led Mays in both career home runs and career rbi. Mays also led the Mick in most other categories except walks, strikeouts, slugging pct and on-base percentage (the latter due to Willie having exactly 700 more career at bats (7594-6894).

Henry Aaron was sitting with a .320 career average coming off a .318 season in Milwaukee. He garnished that gaudy average with 398 hr - 1305 rbi - 1289 runs in 1806 games. Three years younger than Mays or Mantle , it appeared that the Hammer would pass both in career rbi & runs, although Ruth's career home run mark looked a long way off.

Deron Johnson led the majors with 130 rbi for the Reds
The NL hit .249 as a league - the AL hit .242. Tony Oliva paced the AL hitting .321 (his second) whereas Roberto Clemente led the NL with a fairly empty .329 average (10 hr - 65 rbi - 91 runs in 152 games - 21 D - 14 T - .463 slg) . Playing in Forbes Field undoubtedly cost Clemente some home runs but it was a good park for the kind of hitter Clemente was, with the large outfield expanses and odd angles giving him triples and singles

[Ytown Tribe fan]

Nice post.

That season, the 27-year-old Juan Marichal won his 100th game and recorded his 1000th K, in his 6th season.

[JamesI]

At the end of 1965
Frank Robinson was an old 30 with a .303 average, 324 home runs, 1009 rbi and 1042 runs scored. In 1965 he hit .296, 33 home runs, and drove in 113.

[sweaver]

But F. Robby was "an old 30," so Bill DeWitt traded him from the Reds to the Orioles, much to James' delight.

[pwdennis]

Among pitchers :

Sandy Koufax was at 138-78 - not quite enough for Cooperstown. He would win 27 games in 1966, making himself a viable candidate

Don Drysdale was at 164-118 and Milt Pappas was at 110-74 - they would finish up with virtually identical W-L records (Pappas slightly better) with Drysdale reaching Cooperstown

Spahn was at 363-245 - the end of his MLB career although he would pitch in the minors for a few more years.

Robin Roberts was at 281-237. He would go 5-8 in 1966 to finish up at 286-245.

Larry Jackson, a very good pitcher for mostly lousy teams was at 153-136. He would pull up just short of 200 wins and probably could have pitched a few more seasons than he did.as he went 13-17 (2.77) for the 68 Phillies.

Curt Simmons was at 183-167. He too would pull up short of 200 wins.

"Pancake" Jim Palmer made his debut for the Orioles going 5-4. In 1966 he would go 15-10 and become a world series hero pitching a shutout over Koufax in the Orioles sweep of the Dodgers. Jim would miss the 1967 season before getting his HOF career rolling in earnest in 1968.

Fergie Jenkins made his debut going 2-1 for the Phillies as a reliever. Tommon John went 14-7 to bring his career log to 16-18. Jim Kaat was at 77-70, Bob Gibson was at 91-69 and Jim Bunning was at 156-104 having won 19 for Phils for the 3rd time in four years. Lou Burdette stood at 195-142 after two straight poor seasons.

Whitey Ford was at 232-97 .705 for his 14 seasons - essentially at the end of the road as injuries would plague the rest of his
career ending up with 2-5 (2.47) & 2-4 (1.64) as the Yankee dynasty completely collapsed.

Juan Marichal was at 105-52. Camilo Pascual was at 137-135 after a career spent with mostly bad teams. Phil Niekro stood at 2-3 after two seasons. Jim Perry was at 79-68 while Gaylord Perry stood at 20-24. 1965 was the last full Red Sox season for Dick "the Monster" Radatz.

The career of Don Larson closed out at 81-91

[JamesI]

Originally posted by pwdennis

"Pancake" Jim Palmer made his debut for the Orioles going 5-4. In 1966 he would go 15-10 and become a world series hero pitching a shutout over Koufax in the Orioles sweep of the Dodgers. Jim would miss the 1967 season before getting his HOF career rolling in earnest in 1968.


just a correction
Palmer missed all of 1968, and most of 1967 and got his career rolling in 1969.

[KCBOOMER]

Eddie Mathews would hit 32 HR's bringing his career total to 477 which was over 240 more than any other 3B in History (Ken Boyer-237). This was the last time Mathews would hit 20 or more homers in a season. He would only play three more years and hit just 35 HR's for a final total of 512.

[pwdennis]

correct on Palmer - he missed most of 1967 and all of 1968

Only one Cy Young Award was made during this time costing either Mel Stottlemyer or Mudcat Grant the 1965 AL CYA . In 1966 Jim Kaat would go 25-13 and would have been the likely AL CYA . In both seasons Sandy Koufax won the only Cy awarded.

The1965 AL MVP was Zoilo Versalles (some early baseball cards listed him as "Zorro") who led the AL in AB, Runs, Total Bases, Doubles,Triples , times struck out, extra base hits and power/speed number. He also was 2nd in Hits, 3rd in stolen bases and 5th in times hit by pitch and was the AL Gold Glove at SS. I personally don't think he was the AL MVP (I think Oliva was) but he wasn't as bad a choice as some seem to think

[gyb13]

AMERICAN LEAGUE 1965

RCAA RCAA
1 Tony Oliva 43
2 Leon Wagner 41
3 Rocky Colavito 40
4 Carl Yastrzemski 38
5 Norm Cash 31
T6 Harmon Killebrew 30
T6 Tom Tresh 30
T6 Curt Blefary 30
9 Frank Howard 28
10 Al Kaline 27
T11 Don Buford 24
T11 Jimmie Hall 24
T13 Brooks Robinson 21
T13 Zoilo Versalles 21
even Sam McDowell had a better case than Zoilo

[pwdennis]

True but, except for Tony Oliva, none of these players had particularly eye-catching stats by traditional standards. Remember, the observers of 1965 didn't realize that they were in a mini-deadball era and they didn't have the sophisticated statistical analysis available to them that we have today. To them it seemed the perfect time to reward a middle infielder

Leon Wagner 28 79 .294
Jimmie Hall 20 86 .285
Rocky Colavito 26 108 .287
Carl Yastrzemski 20 72 .312
Harmon Killebrew 20 75 .269

Even Tony Oliva at 16 98 .321 doesn't look all that impressive viewed by historical norms.

[sweaver]

Originally posted by gyb13

RCAA RCAA
1 Tony Oliva 43
2 Leon Wagner 41
3 Rocky Colavito 40
4 Carl Yastrzemski 38
5 Norm Cash 31
T6 Harmon Killebrew 30
T6 Tom Tresh 30
T6 Curt Blefary 30
9 Frank Howard 28
10 Al Kaline 27
T11 Don Buford 24
T11 Jimmie Hall 24
T13 Brooks Robinson 21
T13 Zoilo Versalles 21
Add in defensive value, and Versalles had about as good a case as anyone.

[gyb13]

sweav, you know you want to, so give us the win shares ;)

[sweaver]

Gotta get my hands on the book first. Moving, ya know. Wish someone would put those on the web for fast retrieval.

[rcartman28]

Originally posted by gyb13

AMERICAN LEAGUE 1965

RCAA RCAA
1 Tony Oliva 43
2 Leon Wagner 41
3 Rocky Colavito 40
4 Carl Yastrzemski 38
5 Norm Cash 31
T6 Harmon Killebrew 30
T6 Tom Tresh 30
T6 Curt Blefary 30
9 Frank Howard 28
10 Al Kaline 27
T11 Don Buford 24
T11 Jimmie Hall 24
T13 Brooks Robinson 21
T13 Zoilo Versalles 21
even Sam McDowell had a better case than Zoilo

Looks rather similar to Tejada winning the MVP last season....both won the award at similar ages (Versalles at 25, Tejada at, allegedly, 26). Versalles went on to play two more years for the Twins and drift into obscurity, though.....

[pwdennis]

Originally posted by rcartman28
Looks rather similar to Tejada winning the MVP last season....both won the award at similar ages (Versalles at 25, Tejada at, allegedly, 26). Versalles went on to play two more years for the Twins and drift into obscurity, though.....

their seasons weren't particularly similar

[gyb13]

Originally posted by sweaver
Gotta get my hands on the book first. Moving, ya know. Wish someone would put those on the web for fast retrieval. ok, AL Win Shares 1965 (i finally have the book but am yet to read/leaf through it):

33 Oliva (MIN)
32 Versalles (MIN)
30 Buford (CHW)

i think BJ says a difference of a couple of win shares is essentially meaningless so, by this metric, it was a more-than-reasonable MVP selection

[sweaver]

Yes, since 3 Win Shares equals a win, a difference of less than 3 Win Shares is insignificant. So, any of those three makes a decent MVP for 1965.

[nyy26wc]

Just for the record, on SABR-L, James has said that to argue a higher Win Share figure means one player was better than another is a misuse of the stat.

He didn't say what a proper use would be, but I'm just pointing out what he's gone on record as saying.

[poorme]

as with any stat, it's just another criterion to consider....

[pwdennis]

"Sudden" Sam McDowell had what appeared to be a breakout season going 17-11 2.18. Adjusting for ball park, he was probably the most effective pitcher in baseball, although not close to winning the Cy Young Award

[gyb13]

he had a great season, but he was only the third best pitcher in baseball, to Marichal and (cy young winner) Koufax

1965
RSAA RSAA
1 Juan Marichal 57
2 Sandy Koufax 40
3 Sam McDowell 36
4 Jim Maloney 33

[Fuzzy Bear]

1965 was the year Tommy Davis, back-to-back NL batting champion, in DODGER STADIUM!!!! broke his ankle.

Davis missed most of the year. Lou Johnson took his place.

Although Davis came back, he lost his speed and was never the same player. Had this injury not happened, he may well have had a career rivaling Roberto Clemente. At the end of 1964, Davis was as likely to enter the HOF as Koufax. At the end of 1965, well . . .

Davis hit .313 in 1966 in half-time duty. He hit .302 for the 1967 Mets, as a full-time player. Davis, through 1967, playing in poor hitter's parks, had a BA over .300 lifetime, with some power and two (2) batting titles to his credit.

Although he had an off year in 1964, Tommy Davis was a GREAT PLAYER going into 1965. After 1965, he was just another guy who could hit some.