Mikey, Jackie & Greenie

[Max Power]

I really mean this as a serious question. Please, no jokes. Let's try and look at this in a mature fashion - and debate the question - - or the possibility of the truth behind the OVERALL question - and, let's certainly stay away from debating anyone in question being acceptable or not.

Jackie Robinson took a lot of crap when he broke into the bigs. He was driven hard for being the first openly known black in modern baseball. Some people had an issue with black players.

Hank Greenberg took a lot of crap too - - bench jokeying, etc. - - for being the first Jewish star player. Somewhat like when Robinson played, a lot of people did not want to see a Jewish player do well.

Now, a lot of people today think Mike Piazza is gay. It may be right, and it may be false. And, at the end of the day, it's no one's business and it makes no difference whether it's true or not. Being gay is no issue and people should not care. But, again, somewhat like Jackie and Greenberg, there are people out there who do not want to see a gay player do well in the bigs.

Could it be possible that Mike finds himself in a lot of these situations (Clemens, Mota, etc.) because some players choose to believe that he is gay, and, as then him being the first gay star player (to them), they're riding him?

Or, is this theory totally impossible?

[Skip]

I love the way you ask loaded questions. Of course it's possible, but in this case I don't think it is likely. I think the gay thing is more on the 'razzing' level than the serious abuse level for Piazza. Certainly not at the anti-black or anti-Jew level faced by Robinson and Greenberg and others. I have no real evidence (is there any), but that's my thought on it.

I also love the way 6 people looked at this thread before me, but no one felt comfortable enough to answer.

[Max Power]

Originally posted by Skip
I also love the way 6 people looked at this thread before me, but no one felt comfortable enough to answer.

I was beginning to think I brought something up too hot to handle - - me, of all people!

You really think the "anti-gay" thing is just razzing? I think there are a bunch of gay people out there that will say it's more than just that..........there's a lot of haters, and such (i.e. rollers), out there who are doing more than razzing, IMHO.

[JamesI]

Ignoring if Piazza is or is not gay, I doubt the problems he's had had anything to do with that. If he were openly out of the closet, then maybe.

The problems are probably blown out of proportion due to his being in New York, and the World Series thing with Clemens.

I remember rumors in the late 90s about another player being gay, and he didn't take any abuse. Of course he wasn't 1/3 the player Piazza is.

[Skip]

Originally posted by Max Power
You really think the "anti-gay" thing is just razzing? I think there is almost surely a strong anti-gay sentiment in locker rooms around MLB. I just think that the Piazza thing is overblown and that in his case it's more at the razzing level than serious abuse - whether or not it is really true or false. I just don't get the feeling that he is under any real sort of microscope or scrutiny.

Doesn't change or solve the fundamental problem, I just don't think it is dramatically affecting him.

[Craig S.]

Even if a gay player comes out, I don't think you'd see nearly the intimidation or outright abuse hurled at them like Greenberg or Jackie had to live with. During those times, a large part of society condoned anti-semitic and anti-black behavior. I don't think that same feeling exists in today's society regarding gays. I know it's there, and that there are groups that absolutely despise them, but not on such as a society-wide level.

As for Piazza, I think he's just developed a reputation for being soft, which is probably why guys think they can get away with taking shots at him. I'm sure there's discussion among other players about his sexuality (just as many fans quietly question the same thing), but I don't think it's the reason for his problems.

I don't think the theory is impossible, but I don't think that's the case here. And I don't think - and I hope this isn't just my naivete - that a gay player will have to live through what guys like Greenberg and Robinson did.

[Max Power]

Originally posted by Craig S.
And I don't think - and I hope this isn't just my naivete - that a gay player will have to live through what guys like Greenberg and Robinson did.

Then why hasn't anyone come out while being an active player?

[Craig S.]

Originally posted by Max Power
Then why hasn't anyone come out while being an active player?

I'd guess a fear of at least some kind of retribution or negative reaction.

Also, there's nothing really pushing them to come out. Jackie couldn't hide the fact that he was black, and the same goes for Greenberg being Jewish. Not so with a gay player. And while I think most players would be accepting, I can still understand not coming out since there will be some who are homophobic or disagree with your lifestyle for other reasons. Why subject yourself to that if you don't have to?

I still don't think it would be on the Hank-Jackie level, but there would definitely be ill feelings.

[gyb13]

Originally posted by Max Power
Then why hasn't anyone come out while being an active player? because it's nobody else's business

[TGwynn19]

Originally posted by Max Power
Then why hasn't anyone come out while being an active player?


Because while some teammates had problems with Jackie and Hank they were never scared to take a shower with them. The racial/religious hatred is slightly different than sexual orientation hatred.

If a player were openly gay I think he would have more problems with his own teammates rather than the opposition. With Jackie and Hank opposing players would yell insults from the opposing dugout. With a gay teammate that locker room would be a very tense and uncomfortable place. I doubt a teammate would hug a gay player on the field as a display of solidarity.

[Max Power]

Originally posted by TGwynn19
Because while some teammates had problems with Jackie and Hank they were never scared to take a shower with them. The racial/religious hatred is slightly different than sexual orientation hatred.

If a player were openly gay I think he would have more problems with his own teammates rather than the opposition. With Jackie and Hank opposing players would yell insults from the opposing dugout. With a gay teammate that locker room would be a very tense and uncomfortable place. I doubt a teammate would hug a gay player on the field as a display of solidarity.

Actually TG, back in 1947, some people were afraid to shower (or less) with blacks - - that's why you had all that WHITES ONLY stuff - - bathrooms, fountains, hotels, pools, etc.

I think there are some players who would have no issue with a gay teammate. And, I know that Mike Timlin has already been quoted as saying he's had a gay teammate and was fine with it. So, there's one player who knew his teammate was gay and didn't care.

But, there are a fair number of 'mo phobs out there today - - mostly the "real intellectual" types - - like a John Rocker - - enough to give a guy a hard time.

[Max Power]

Originally posted by gyb13
because it's nobody else's business

True. But, you can say the same thing about being Jewish. It's more of a equal rights effort - coming out that is..........

[Max Power]

BTW..........we're getting off topic slightly in this one - easy to do, I know..............again, all, the question is:

Could it be possible that Mike finds himself in a lot of these situations (Clemens, Mota, etc.) because some players choose to believe that he is gay, and, as then him being the first gay star player (to them), they're riding him?

[TGwynn19]

Sure it is possible. Anything is possible. But I don't think that is the case here.

[LeGrandOrange]

Of course not, don't be ridicilous (sic). The Clemens incident was before some idiotic news sources insinuated about his orientation. The Mota thing had nothing to do with it either, it's not like Guillermo went up on the slab, said to himself "He's gay, I must plunk him", and did it. Jim Tracy might've given him his walking papers if that was the case.

It sounds like the theory of a guy who wants Mike to come out so he can blame his problems, past, present and future, on it.

Sorry, I had to say it. It's like you have this unhealthy addiction with his orientation. It kind of bothers me to be quite honest.

Now that I've given something of an opinion, feel free to boycott me, as 1st amendment rights don't seem to be upheld these days. :)

[satchel]

I still think there are two issues in Max's question - (1) would the first (out) gay star be subject to taunts and/or harassment from other players, amd (2) could rumors surrounding Piazza's sexuality be responsible for the incidents he's been involved in?

It is true that one's sexuality is nobody's business but one's own. However, many gay people choose to come out because it fights invisibility and marginalization - it's a lot easier to hate and ostracize a group when you don't think anyone you know and respect belongs to it - or because they want their loving relationships recognized and honored the same way straight loving relationships are.

That said, a ballplayer would have lots of reasons not to come out. There's a loud and vocal religious contingent among ballplayers who would almost certainly hasten to condemn a gay ballplayer. And there is still a very strong sentiment against gays even among the average person - even among people who don't think there's anything "wrong" with being gay, there is frequently a palpable sense of disgust, fear, distance, and so on, that would severely strain relationships in a close team environment.

If you really think that sentiment does not exist, I don't know what to tell you. I and people very close to me have experienced it. One does not need to be vocally homophobic, or even privately against gay rights, to nevertheless be very uncomfortable in close proximity to openly gay people. I can imagine that this effect would only be more pronounced in a locker room. A ballplayer concerned for his team's "chemistry" might take great pains to avoid fomenting division and discomfort in the clubhouse by coming out.

Now on to Piazza - with Robinson and Greenberg, there were two factors that encouraged open and public displays of contempt - first, they couldn't and/or didn't hide the "feature" that was the cause of the hatred (Greenberg presumably could have used a false name and denied being Jewish had he wanted too; I'm sure other players did). Second, while as I argued above there is still a great deal of hostility toward and fear of gays in our society, in Robinson's and Greenberg's day, there was (at least in great swaths of the nation) not even an attempt to pay lip service to respect for the rights of Blacks or Jews. Open hostility had a public countenance that it would not have today.

So with Piazza, if players are asking themselves "is he, or isn't he?" some of them might not be inclined to attack him for it unless they know for sure - because at least some of their teammates and fans are likely to be put off by such behavior. Others might have already concluded that Piazza is gay, and if so I would not be the least bit surprised to see him bear the brunt of some hostility. But it would be hidden, couched in other terms, to avoid the appearance of bigotry, because today society largely does pay lip service to respect for difference, even if it frequently is only lip service.

I can't conclude one way or the other what the source of hostility toward Piazza is - even if there is a single source - because I just don't know what other ballplayers know or think they know about him.

[satchel]

Originally posted by LeGrandOrange
Now that I've given something of an opinion, feel free to boycott me, as 1st amendment rights don't seem to be upheld these days. :)

LGO, no one is going to "boycott" you for expressing your opinion. :) Even though the First Amendment has no application in a private forum, the whole point of NDF is for people to express their opinions. As long as it is done with civility and respect, everyone can say what they think here. That's what it's for. Personal attacks are never welcome, though - please, everyone, bear that in mind.

Thanks for reminding us that the Clemens incident happened before the public rumors surrounding Piazza. I don't think that negates Max's question, though, as players may have had their own rumors and/or knowledge about him long before the press got wind of it. In my opinion, Max's question is provocative and interesting, even if it has no application to Piazza's situation at all.

[Max Power]

LGO, Satch, FWIW, the rumors (for lack of better word) around Piazza go way before 2000 (and the Clemens incident). They go back to his days with the Dodgers.

I've heard a few times, from different people, that in LA, Mike had what I call "Ed Koch" protection.

When Ed Koch was mayor of NYC, many, many, people knew he was gay - even 'tho Ed never came out. At the time, often, my gay friends would tell me that they spotted him at a gay movie or play, etc. But, the press never got on Ed for being gay, and people didn't care - because he was, for the most part, a beloved mayor.

From what people have told me, on the West Coast, while in LA, Mike had the same "status" with the media and most of the public - - many either knew or thought he was gay - but, rightfully, nobody really cared. It didn't matter. It wasn't talked about.

It wasn't until he went to FLA and then NY that the media and the East Coast started picking up on this crap. There are many stories linking Piazza to NYC TV weatherman Sam Champion which added steam to the rumors.

But, again, in the baseball community, where players talk to players, the whispers about Mike date back at least 5 or 6 years - - maybe more.

LGO - do I have an "unhealthy addiction with his orientation"? Not really, IMHO. In fact, it's my dream that he makes the Cooperstown HOF, and then, if he his gay, comes out of the closet - and then showing the world that a gay person can play baseball and be the very best hitter at his position - all-time. I think that would go a long way to busting stereotypes and establishing equality for homosexuals.

LGO, you really don't know me. One of my huge peeves in this world is that there have been homosexual people for the last 5,000 years (or something like that) - and, as a society, after ALL THIS TIME, we can't get over it. I would like to see that end - and, I think, just like Jackie playing baseball helped blacks in society, maybe if some star baseball player came out of the closet, it might be a start.

Sorry to get off topic - - just felt I should clear the claim that this is a personal thing with me - - it is, but, not me v. Piazza, which I was accused of here. I just want to see human beings start to get over this non-issue.

[KCBOOMER]

A gay player will not face near the harassment that Greenberg and Robinson faced. In Greenberg's time period anti-semitism was not frowned upon and obviously for Robinson racism was alive and well and generally approved.

Today open discrimination and bigotry is generally frowned upon (see John Rocker, Jimmy the Greek, Al Campanis, etc) so a gay player wouldn't face near the harassment Hank and Jackie did.

Yes, heterosexual teammates would be as uncomfortable as the gay player acted gay. If he's showering with the boys and ogling their equipment their will be serious trouble.

[TimmyB]

Originally posted by Max Power
Could it be possible that Mike finds himself in a lot of these situations (Clemens, Mota, etc.) because some players choose to believe that he is gay, and, as then him being the first gay star player (to them), they're riding him?

I think the east cost (esp. NY) media makes more out of this than the players. Yes, some would ride him, if, in fact he is gay, and were to come out publically while playing, but no... I do not think he (or whoever is the first publically gay player) would take, or be expected to take, the same kind of abuse that Greenberg or Robinson had to endure.

Does the possibility that he is gay (which, I guess is a fact -- in that there has been so much speculation -- fact being: there's speculation he's gay) make him more of a target? Well... possibly. But there's also equally possible a chance that a pitcher would throw at/near him to move him off the plate, to get into his head, to intimidate him... all sorts of things. (The Clemens thing is sort of put aside here because it was just so bizarre.)

[sweaver]

I think you might have something here, Max, and I would disagree that there is a low level of discriminations against homosexuals, and least in sports locker rooms. If Piazza is believed to be gay, some will likely act on that belief, true or no.

[LeGrandOrange]

Max, I understand your dream of Piazza coming out and breaking stereotypes, the idea of it does not make me comfortable. And it's not that I'd have an issue with an openly gay player, if he was a good player and I felt he was cool, I'd like him regardless. If he's not a stereotype then it really shouldn't matter.
The idea that you want Piazza to come out just sort of strikes me as...as...well...I don't know the word I want to use for it. It just doesn't seem right if you ask me.

I'm also understanding that you want them to finally gain acceptance, I personally have this same dream with autistics like myself, but that's a different story because athletics are difficult for them. I'm just not wishing for a star to come out in this way.

I'm probably sorry if I annoyed you...it happens. I just had an opinion I felt like sharing. Not that there's anything WRONG with that...

Hmm...that last statement ties into the post quite well. I had not intended on that, I was completely unaware of where that came from.

[WiredTiger]

Piazza probably flipped out because someone mentioned how crappy the 10-10-321 commercials were. Or someone asked him how ALF was.

I would think that being gay in today's society does not carry as big of stigma as being the other two examples. However, I believe that in athletics it would be a big deal and if someone were to come out they would probably take abuse. It may not be as out in the open as the abuse Robinson and Greenberg faced but there would be subtle ways of showing displeasure with that particular lifestyle.

[Ytown Tribe fan]

An interesting article on this very issue:

http://www.outsports.com/columns/comingout052401.htm

[satchel]

Originally posted by Ytown Tribe fan
An interesting article on this very issue:

http://www.outsports.com/columns/comingout052401.htm

Thanks for the link, YTown. It's a thoughtful and respectful article that echoes a lot of the thoughts already expressed on this thread.

[Fuzzy Bear]

How baseball, players and fans, would react to a player "coming out" would, IMO, depend on (A) the status of the player, and (B) the team for whom the player played for.

I don't want to imply that I think Mike Piazza (or any other player, for that matter) is gay. I do think that a superstar on the level of a Mike Piazza will find more acceptance than a lesser talent. I think an established player will find more acceptance than a first or second year player. I think that there would be more acceptance of the player if he played for the Mets/Yankees, Dodgers/Angels, or Giants/A's. I think there would be the most resistance in the teams based in the Southern states, in Cincinnati, and, probably, Philadelphia, Kansas City, and St. Louis.

Coming out would demolish the promotional opportunities for a player who was anything less than a well-established star. For a guy like Piazza, with name and face recognition nationwide, and Hollywood connections (again, assuming is is gay, which I most certainly am NOT assuming) such a move would be a commercial boon, with all sorts of acting gigs, book rights, etc., coming his way. He'd be an instant Hollywood hero.

I don't believe for a minute that the reaction to an openly gay player will be the same as the reaction to Jackie. There is far more public acceptance of homosexuality now then there was of racial integration in 1947. I DO think that a white homosexual player will find the going far more easy than a homosexual from a racial/ethnic minority.

I'm sure there are gays in MLB today, and I'm sure there have been some all along, besides the few we know about. I do believe that the first player to come out WILL be a BIG, ESTABLISHED STAR playing in a BIG MEDIA CITY. I also suspect that, under those conditions, the reaction will not be as big as anyone now thinks, either positive or negative. America is used to open homosexuals coming into their homes via television; what's the BIG difference if they come through on the sports channel as opposed to the movie channel? In truth, much less difference than one may think.

I want to make it clear that I AM NOT ENDORSING ANY PARTICULAR COURSE OF ACTION BY THIS POST. I am only speculating what I believe would be the reaction to a major league baseball player disclosing his homosexuality to the general public.

[SmedIndy]

Since we already had trouble with this issue in one thread, I'm going to close this now TFN.