Underrated Hall of Famers

[pwdennis]

Back in 2001 a thread on this topic appeared but the vast majority of current active NetShrine members were not members at that time so it seems to a good topic to revive

My nominees would include Tris Speaker, Carl Yastrzemski and Ted Lyons

[Jim Rice]

Johnny Mize, Billy Williams, Arky Vaughan.

[Dr. Memory]

Mel Ott, Mel Ott, Mel Ott! When all-time greats are talked about nowadays, I never see Ott mentioned, probably because nobody disagrees that Ruth and Aaron were better. But you could just as easily call Ruth a LF as a RF, and Ott and Aaron were basically equals as hitters.

Willie McCovey, Stan Musial, Hoyt Wilhelm. I second the nomination of Vaughan.

[Max Power]

Tris Speaker could have been the best all-around player ever. He did it in both the Dead Ball and Lively Ball Eras.

Any time someone mentions the likes Cobb, Ruth, Mays, DiMaggio, etc. - they should also Speaker - - - but, few due.

It's sad that he's so often overlooked.

[Dr. Memory]

I'm not so sure about Speaker. I think his fielding is overrated a bit. He gets mad props for all those assists, but I wonder how many of those assists were on infield plays that infielders could have handled without his help. As for his range, I'm sure it was great, but there are dozens of guys in ML history who also had great range who are not and never will be HOFers.

His hitting is probably underrated. I admire how he apparently didn't change his approach yet remained effective in the lively ball era. There's no denying his hitting was great.

[sweaver]

I would certainly cite Speaker. Others from his era as well, that time period is passing from the public conciousness.

[JamesI]

Vaughn and Speaker are definetly underrated.

[nightal]

1. Absolutely Tris Speaker- his defense is not overrated.
2.Paul Waner- When the great hitters are discussed, his name rarely surfaces.
3.Johnny Mize-A power hitter who does not strike out, an extinct breed indeed.
4.Arky Vaughan- Any positive comments about this guy are warrented and I'll agree with them.


I cannot agree about Mel Ott even though I'm an Ott fan. I'd like to have seen what he would have done in another park.

[Dr. Memory]

Originally posted by nightal
1. Absolutely Tris Speaker- his defense is not overrated.

Out of curiosity, what's your reasoning? He's generally called the greatest OF of all time, but a huge amount of that is the assists, which as I said are tainted due to the way he played on the infield.

Originally posted by nightal
I cannot agree about Mel Ott even though I'm an Ott fan. I'd like to have seen what he would have done in another park.

You're killing me! :D Seriously, I think the park stuff is a big reason why he's underrated. Everyone says "what if," but A) every player's career is filled with "what ifs", B) if it was so easy to do what Ott did in the Polo Grounds, why is he the only one to do it, and C) in any case, what he did won games, and a home victory is worth no less than a road victory.

[nightal]

A lot of other outfielders played in the same era as Speaker, but none that I know of posted his type of numbers.
Also, in my many baseball books I've collected, almost without fail, Tris' contemporaries laud his defensive prowess when recalling him against other OF's of the day.


In response to Ott. I agree with you about the "what ifs" and victories.

[Ytown Tribe fan]

Hank Aaron. Yes, THAT Hank Aaron.

Underrated? Well, he's NEVER considered as one of the greatest batters of all time, let alone THE best batter. Most people don't even have him in their top 5.

Name your top 5 batters of all time, or your top 5 all around players of all time. Okay -- name your top TEN batters or players of all time. Any room for Hank on the lists?

The guy had more homers, RBI and TB than anyone else ever. And he is underrated.

Maybe he didn't draw enough walks. He was so busy getting those 3,771 hits (and driving in all those runs), that he totally ignored his OPS.

[nightal]

Starting a fight here, I guess ha ha (Help appreciated)

He(Aaron) also batted more than about anyone else and was not injured for any length of time and missed no time because of military service.That contributes to a lot of his raw numbers.
One of the greats, yes, of course. I just do not think he was underrated.
You want to talk about an underrated HOF of this era- try Frank Robinson.


Leaving for work now, expect minor fireworks when I check this tomorrow

[LeGrandOrange]

Speaker and Yastrzemski are the first two guys I think of as underrated (Frank Robinson isn't underrated right now...when he stops managing most will forget about him and put him in that group). All Speaker did was play CF as well as Cobb, and all Yaz was play only a shade worse than Williams in his 23 years. Yaz had one of the toughest assignments in MLB history to do, and for him to succeed that well...that deserves a net-load of props. (Assuming seats haven't replaced it)

Speaker's case is well documented, so I shan't have to bring it up further.

[pwdennis]

[/B] You're killing me! :D Seriously, I think the park stuff is a big reason why he's underrated. Everyone says "what if," but A) every player's career is filled with "what ifs", B) if it was so easy to do what Ott did in the Polo Grounds, why is he the only one to do it, and C) in any case, what he did won games, and a home victory is worth no less than a road victory. [/B]

The reason Ott was the only one to do it was to some extent a matter of his date of birth and enduring good health. Ott not only did not lose any time to WW2, but he was able to extend his career and continue to star against the diluted competition of the war years. Ott came up at 17 and was completely through at age 38 (and probably a year or two earlier but for the diluted competition). He was a great player but playing elsewhere he is a 350 to 400 home run man, not a member of the 500 home run club. Had Babe Ruth or Willie Mays been Giants from 1926 to 1947 you would have found a lot of extra home runs in their career logs. Ott is not underrated, he is clearly overrated, although still a worthy member of the HOF

[Ytown Tribe fan]

Kid Nichols. A truly great pitcher.

[SmedIndy]

Sliding Billy!

[Craig S.]

Originally posted by SmedIndy
Sliding Billy!

Good choice - the best of the early base-stealers!

How did I know you'd weigh in with someone who played mostly pre-1900? ;)

[KCBOOMER]

With the exception of Hans Wagner just about anybody that played before 1910. Ed Delahanty might be a good a name as anybody.

I do like the choices of Speaker and Ott, also. The rank 11th and 12th all-time for OPS+.

Also Eddie Collins and the Rajah could use some love.

[mandamin]

Ott's OPS+ is not meaningfully different from Aaron's or F-Rob's. I don't get how using a park to one's unique advantage is a punishable offense. His park-adjusted numbers rank with the all-time greats, and he's probably the least talked-about member of the 500HR club. I'm definitely with Dr. Memory on this one, although Waner and Speaker are good chocies too.
What about Pete Alexander?

[WiredTiger]

Some of the usual suspects....

Eddie Mathews
Arky Vaughan


I also think that Stan Musial get underrated at times. He was a great ball player.

My overlooked guy is Harry Heilmann. He was a great, great hitter who played across two distinct eras and still succeeded.

[Fuzzy Bear]

Originally posted by Max Power
Tris Speaker could have been the best all-around player ever. He did it in both the Dead Ball and Lively Ball Eras.

Any time someone mentions the likes Cobb, Ruth, Mays, DiMaggio, etc. - they should also Speaker - - - but, few due.

It's sad that he's so often overlooked.

As one who regards Speaker as the greatest CF of all time, I say "Amen".

Speaker was a better defensive CF than his contemporary, Ty Cobb. He was faster, and his teams won more often. He was a great hitter himself, and hit for more power than Cobb.

I personally think that the most underrated HOFer of all time is Eddie Mathews. How many 3B who hit over 500 career jacks are turned down for HOF induction by the B.B.W.A.A. FOUR STRAIGHT TIMES. This is the most absurd performance by the writers regarding the induction of a player ever, bar none. What excuse could they come up with to justify not electing a 3B with 500 career HRs who was, at the time of his retirement, the best 3B ever to play the game?

One reason for this is that, while active, Mathews was underrated by the writers and broadcasters. As a youth I kept hearing how the greatest 3B of all time were Brooks Robinson and Pie Traynor. I knew Mathews hit 512 HRs, so I wondered what the big deal was here about those other guys.

I know now. Sportswriters and broadcasters are, far too often, pompous and pretentious. They make baseball more complicated than it is. They talk about the intrinsic values of defense and leadership, which they, of course, are more privy to than Joe Fan, while devaluing a home run and a walk (slugger's tools). Brooks' diving catches in the World Series were just the most wonderful thing going, while Eddie Mathews' 512 HRs became chopped liver.

Mathews, while living, never really got the adulation as the greatest living 3B. He was exactly that in 1969, when the writers elected Pie Traynor, and in 1970, when broadcasters annointed Brooks Robinson. Never, in the history of baseball, was a man given less honor at a slower pace when honor was due.

[Rinkster]

Here is my list of the most underrated HOFers by position:

Pitcher: Kid Nichols

NOBODY ever mentions him as one of the All-Time great pitchers, but he was.

Catcher: Buck Ewing (1880-1897)
Was considered by many during his time (and if fact for a few decades beyond his time) as the best PLAYER in baseball, or at least the most valuable. Of course, he spent a lot of time playing other positions, but went into the HOF as a catcher.

His career stats, adjusted to a context of the modern day (1996-2000), would look like this:

AVG: .310
HR: 374
RBI: 1023
Games: 1781
Hits: 2260
Runs: 1371
2B: 470
3B: 83
SLG: .551

Leftfield: Goose Goslin (1921-38)
An awesome hitter who played most of his career in a horrible park for him. Hardly ever hear him mentioned at all, let alone as a Hall of Famer. My LF runners-up for this are Ed Delahanty and Stan Musial (I'd want him as teammate over Teddy Ballgame).

Centerfield: Earl Averill (1929-41)
A short career (13 years), but a fine one with 280 Win Shares.
Since Vada Pinson (280 Win Shares in his first 13 full seasons, 321 overall) is not in the HOF, I had to pick Averill.

Rightfield: Frank Robinson (1956-1976)
This if for the numbnuts who actually believe Roberto Clemente and/or Al Kaline (and there are those out there who do feel this way) were better players than Robby. Left of the All-Century team! Unbelievable!

Third Base: Eddie Mathews (1952-1968)
If you don't understand why by now, you never will.

Shortstop: Arky Vaughan (1932-43, 47-48)
When I was but a teenager during the 1980s, I had Arky listed as the 4th best shortstop of all-time. My mentor thought I was nuts to rank Vaughan in the top 10, let alone 4th. I don't know if Vaughan is #2 all-time, as Bill James ranks him, but did you EVER hear of Vaughan before the last couple of years?

Second Base: Joe Morgan
How many ESPN viewers, especially the younger ones, know how wonderful a player and leader Joe Morgan was?


First Base: 3 Way-Tie (Brouthers, Connor, Mize)

Dan Brouthers (1879-96, 1904)
Career totals in a modern day context (1996-2000)

AVG: .357
HR: 568
RBI: 1552
G: 2254
Runs: 1836
Hits: 3244
2B: 724
3B: 81
SLG: .641

Roger Connor (1880-97)
Career totals in a modern day context (1996-2000)

AVG: .331
HR: 623
RBI: 1548
G: 2671
Runs: 1948
Hits: 3479
2B: 695
3B: 97
SLG: .593

Johnny Mize (1936-1942, 46-53)
We hear over and over about how great players of the 1940s missed years due to WWII, and how awesome their career totals would have been if not for the war, yet one of the true greats of that time was Johnny Mize. Mize missed three full seasons in his prime due to WWII. I truly feel if he had those three years he'd easily have been considered, right now, one of the top 5 first basemen in history, perhaps as high as 3 or 4.

[bill wisnosky]

Earl Averill......Heine Manush.....Dave Winfield
Now these guys are underrated......

[SmedIndy]

God bless you Rinkster for not forgetting the oldtimers!

Though I'd have to say Buck Ewing also had the "luxury" of playing several positions as well, and really didn't play in that many games. Of course, with little protection and some funky pitching rules, its no wonder!