The #2 Pirate of All Time

[Fuzzy Bear]

Vote early. I guess it's impossible to vote often, here.

I am making the bold assumption that Honus Wagner is an almost unanimous pick as the greatest Pirate in history.

[JamesI]

I'll vote Clemente, although there are some other good choices.

[Craig S.]

I'm going with Clemente as well.

[Craig S.]

It's interesting that the list of filled with hitters, and no mention made of their pitchers. I wonder if their pitchers suffered historically because of playing in Forbes Field.

I don't believe that any pitcher who spent the majority of his prime with the Pirates during the 20th century is in the HOF. Fuzzy, am I correct in that statement?

[KCBOOMER]

I went with Waner. Superior OPS+ and RCAA to the others.

[Ytown Tribe fan]

The list of greatest Pirate pitchers:

Sam Leever: 194-100 (as a Pirate) (1898-1910).

Babe Adams: 194-139 (1907-1926).

Wilbur Cooper: 202-159 (1912-1924).

Bob Friend: 191-218 (1951-1965).

Deacon Phillippe: 168-92 (1900-1911).

Vern Law: 162-147 (1950-1967).

Roy Face: 100-93 (1953-1968).

Dock Ellis: 96-80 (1968-1975).

Bob Moose: 76-71 (1967-1976).

[Craig S.]

Originally posted by Ytown Tribe fan
The list of greatest Pirate pitchers:

Sam Leever: 194-100 (as a Pirate) (1898-1910).

Babe Adams: 194-139 (1907-1926).

Wilbur Cooper: 202-159 (1912-1924).

Bob Friend: 191-218 (1951-1965).

Deacon Phillippe: 168-92 (1900-1911).

Vern Law: 162-147 (1950-1967).

Roy Face: 100-93 (1953-1968).

Dock Ellis: 96-80 (1968-1975).

Bob Moose: 76-71 (1967-1976).


Thanks for the list, YTF. Not really a lot to choose from there. Plenty of great hitters, but thin on the mound.

[Rajah]

I selected Arky Vaughn.

[sweaver]

Waner, Clemente and Stargell are pretty close to even as players, so I went with Clemente based on "intangibles."

Is it me, or do the Pirates have an unusual number of their all-time greats who stayed with the team their whole major league career?

[pathogan]

...Roberto for me

[Dr. Memory]

Originally posted by sweaver
Is it me, or do the Pirates have an unusual number of their all-time greats who stayed with the team their whole major league career?

Interesting question. Might make a project of it.

Among HOFers, the Bucs have Traynor, Clemente, Stargell, and Maz. Wagner and Clarke are actually misses. Other greats include Law and Leever, with Babe Adams a very near miss (all but 1 game). Not entirely sure if that number is unusual. Could well be!

But a quick check of the most likely team OTTOMH...

For the Yankees, among HOFers you have Combs, Gehrig, Dickey, DiMaggio, Rizzuto, Mantle, and Ford . Very near misses include Berra (all but 4 games) and Gomez (all but 1 game).

Near greats include Henrich, Rolfe, McDougald, Munson, and Guidry. Well-known lesser lights include Crosetti, Richardson, and Kubek.

[pwdennis]

I picked Stargell 2nd but it's very close between Pops and Roberto Clemente would be very close

On peak value Kiner might be #2 but his career as a Pirate was too short for him to take the penultimate pride of place

[LeGrandOrange]

I gotta have my Pops. :)
Roberto might've been a better player, though if I was picking by talent it'd be Waner, but Stargell was more beloved than anyone else that's played in the Steel City. Add to that his accomplishments and he's Honus' runner-up.

[nightal]

Waner, possibly Vaughan followed by Clemente.
I went with Waner, of course. We have the same hometown.

[sweaver]

Originally posted by LeGrandOrange
but Stargell was more beloved than anyone else that's played in the Steel City. dunno about that. Clemente may have had some trouble with the press early in his career, but since his hero's death, no one is spoken of with more reverence in these parts. The Pirates jerseys you see either say "Giles" or, more often, "Clemente."

[LeGrandOrange]

I won't deny that Clemente is a popular guy, most teams that can use that number have a player wearing #21 in honor in him. And they have a lot of things named after him at PNC for a reason. But my personal choice is Stargell. He just strikes me as the best combination of talents on and off the field.

But that's my opinion at least.

[pwdennis]

Originally posted by Ytown Tribe fan
The list of greatest Pirate pitchers:

Sam Leever: 194-100 (as a Pirate) (1898-1910).
Babe Adams: 194-139 (1907-1926).
Wilbur Cooper: 202-159 (1912-1924).
Bob Friend: 191-218 (1951-1965).
Deacon Phillippe: 168-92 (1900-1911).
Vern Law: 162-147 (1950-1967).
Roy Face: 100-93 (1953-1968).
Dock Ellis: 96-80 (1968-1975).
Bob Moose: 76-71 (1967-1976).

Sam Leever might have been HOF caliber but otherwise this is a group of pretty decent but not great pitchers (did Babe Adams lose a season or seasons to WW1 ?)

[Dr. Memory]

Originally posted by pwdennis
(did Babe Adams lose a season or seasons to WW1 ?)

No, he was sent to the minors for excessive suckitude. He lost it for a couple of years. Amazing that he made it back. A unique career arc, I think. Roy Sievers would be the most similar case I know of.

[Ytown Tribe fan]

Are the Pirates the only NL charter franchise with NO HoF pitchers?

(BTW, LGO -- I went with Pops as well).

[Dr. Memory]

The Pirates aren't exactly an NL "charter franchise." They came over from the AA in 1887. The only charter franchises left are in Chicago and Atlanta.

Leaving that issue aside, they have had pitchers who made the Hall and would not have without their Pittsburgh years. Pud Galvin went 125-110 over 2000+ IP. Jack Chesbro went 70-38 over 900+ IP. Vic Willis went 89-46 over 1200+ IP.

Lesser examples would be Waite Hoyt, who spent several of his twilight years with the Bucs pitching very effectively and boosting his Hall case, and Burleigh Grimes, who had perhaps his best season with Pittsburgh in 1928, without which his Hall case is severly weakened (and it's pretty weak already). They certainly can't be considered Pittsburgh pitchers, though.

The latest any of these pitched for Pittsburgh: 1937, so it's been a while for sure.

Cincinnati (NL since 1882) has fewer candidates. Eppa Rixey is in, and he's one of the worst in the Hall. And that's pretty much it for guys most of us would call Reds. Additionally you have Tom Seaver, who had some excellent years as a Red but would probably have gotten in without them, and Rube Marquardt, whose one year as a Red strengthened his case (which is pretty much non-existent anyway, but there he is).

[sweaver]

I think you're probably right there, Dr. M, but let's all keep this focused on the #2 Pirate.

[rc3000]

In a surprise I voted for Roberto....

[WiredTiger]

I went with Clement over Arky and Stargell. Arky is very underrated and probably would be considered one of the best players ever if he hadn't missed time in a contract dispute.

[gyb13]

PITTSBURGH PIRATES
CAREER

RCAA RCAA
1 Honus Wagner 938
2 Paul Waner 569
3 Willie Stargell 557
4 Arky Vaughan 440
5 Roberto Clemente 407
6 Ralph Kiner 384
7 Fred Clarke 335
8 Barry Bonds 297
9 Brian Giles 266
10 Elmer Smith 236

RSAA RSAA
1 Wilbur Cooper 184
2 Sam Leever 170
3 Babe Adams 159
4 Deacon Phillippe 135
5 Jesse Tannehill 120
6 Kent Tekulve 119
7 John Candelaria 117
8 Ray Kremer 114
9 Bob Friend 101
10 Larry French 95

[Fuzzy Bear]

Originally posted by Ytown Tribe fan
The list of greatest Pirate pitchers:

Sam Leever: 194-100 (as a Pirate) (1898-1910).

Babe Adams: 194-139 (1907-1926).

Wilbur Cooper: 202-159 (1912-1924).

Bob Friend: 191-218 (1951-1965).

Deacon Phillippe: 168-92 (1900-1911).

Vern Law: 162-147 (1950-1967).

Roy Face: 100-93 (1953-1968).

Dock Ellis: 96-80 (1968-1975).

Bob Moose: 76-71 (1967-1976).

John Candelaria was 124-87 from 1975-85 and 1993.

Steve Blass was 103-76, and his career is devalued by his sudden meltdown.

The Pirates may be the only team in MLB history where a reliever, Roy Face, was the best pitcher in their history.

[Fuzzy Bear]

Originally posted by LeGrandOrange
I gotta have my Pops. :)
Roberto might've been a better player, though if I was picking by talent it'd be Waner, but Stargell was more beloved than anyone else that's played in the Steel City. Add to that his accomplishments and he's Honus' runner-up.

I started this thread because this is a legitimately tough choice.

On peak value, I would go with Ralph Kiner. Period.

But on overall career value to the Pirates I chose Pops as well. Pops lost HRs to a pitcher's park in a pitcher's era. Had he started his career in Three Rivers Stadium in 1980 he might well have finished his career with well over 500 jacks and a BA at about .295.

In addition, it was Willie Stargell, not Roberto Clemente, who led the Bucs to both of their World Championships. Stargell finished 2nd in MVP voting in 1971, whereas Clemente finished 5th. IMO, Stargell, not Joe Torre, deserved the award, although Torre did have a great season. We are all, presumably, well acquainted with 1979. Clemente wasn't the big star on the 1960 team; Dick Groat was. Clemente was just beginning to come into his own in 1960.

Sluggers are frequently underrated because their image often belies what they can do. Stargell has often been thought of as a DH forced to play the field, but that is not true. He played OF well enough to win an MVP award at age 37. That ain't bad.

[sweaver]

I'll have to disagree with you there, Fuzzy. Clemente led the Pirates to two crowns, 1960 and 1971, and did so by hitting safely in each WS game he ever played. Groat was the NL MVP in 1960, but also missed a month with injury. The pennant was a team effort, with solid years by Hoak, Maz, Skinner, and several pitchers as well as part-timers. Stargell was the Pirates' MVP during '71, but Clemente was excellent in-season also, and he hit .414 in the 1971 Series. He had twelve hits in that Series, 9 in 1960.

And when Stargell won that shared MVP in 1979, he was strictly a 1B. No LF by then, the wheels were too bad.

[Ytown Tribe fan]

Fuzzy Bear -- it's a selectively enhanced memory thing.

Clemente did very well in MVP voting in the mid-to-late '60s, betwen World Championships. He had a great '71 WS, winning the WS MVP and died a hero's death after the very next season (in which he got his 3000th hit). That is the stuff of legends.

Stargell did well in MVP voting in the years that the Bucs won it all -- in fact, Starge got the MVP "hat trick" in '79: NL MVP, NLCS MVP, WS MVP.

Pops did just as well in MVP voting in the early-to-mid '70s as Clemente had done in the half-decade before that. 1971 was the year the baton was passed and 1979 was the year that Pops made the big comeback, although he had a really good season in '78 as well.

People have very different memories of the two players. Nothing you can do about it. Look at it this way -- as long as it's been since old Hans played -- he's still viewed as the greatest Buc of all time by fans who follow baseball.

[Rajah]

Career Win Shares:
(Batting/Fielding/Pitching/Total)
Honus Wagner 468.4/130.8/.6/598
Paul Waner 328.6/57.5/0/388
Roberto Clemente 316.4/59.5/0/377
Willie Stargell 339.1/31.4/0/370
Max Carey 240.5/86.5/0/329
Arky Vaughan 230.1/68.8/0/299
Fred Clarke 233.6/49.1/0/282
Pie Traynor 192.5/79.6/0/274
Wilbur Cooper 8.9/0/242.3/250
Tommy Leach 173.2/74.2/0/247

Well, Honus did get .6 pitching win shares, he's the best player who ever pitched for the Pirates ;)

Peak Value:
(top 3, Top 5 total)
Wagner 59/46/45, 237 (655)
Waner 36/34/32, 154 (423)
Clemente 35/30/29, 146 (377)
Stargell 36/35/29, 148 (370)
Carey 29/29/26, 133 (351)
Vaughan 39/36/36, 169 (356)
Clarke 31/30/29, 133 (400)
Traynor 28/26/26, 119 (271)
Cooper 31/27/27, 133 (266)
Leach 31/29/27, 122 (329)

This is something I never noticed before. The number in parentheses is the players total win shares per the HBA. The number I listed at the top is from Win Shares. Fred Clarke dropped from 400 to 282 in the time that it took for HBA to get to Win Shares. Did Bill change something in the formula after the HBA?

Anyway, Arky's peak value is second highest, he's in the top 5 SS of all time
RCAP RCAP
1 Honus Wagner 981
2 Arky Vaughan 551
3 Willie Stargell 437
4 Paul Waner 426
5 Ralph Kiner 318
6 Roberto Clemente 279
7 Barry Bonds 259
8 Fred Clarke 236
9 Pie Traynor 209

[JamesI]

Originally posted by Ytown Tribe fan
People have very different memories of the two players. Nothing you can do about it. Look at it this way -- as long as it's been since old Hans played -- he's still viewed as the greatest Buc of all time by fans who follow baseball.

Yeah, but Wagner is argued as possibly the greatest of all time or in the top 5.

I am beginning to shift towards Stargell, thinking that the tragedy of Clemente's death and the fact that I have some bad memories of Stargell from 1979 affected my vote causing me to vote Roberto. Its so close that its hard to decide.

[Rajah]

SEASON
Non P

RCAP YEAR RCAP
1 Arky Vaughan 1935 104
2 Honus Wagner 1908 91
T3 Honus Wagner 1905 90
T3 Barry Bonds 1992 90
T5 Honus Wagner 1907 88
T5 Honus Wagner 1904 88
7 Honus Wagner 1906 81
8 Ralph Kiner 1949 78
T9 Honus Wagner 1901 77
T9 Honus Wagner 1903 77
11 Ralph Kiner 1951 76
T12 Arky Vaughan 1936 75
T12 Jimmy Williams 1899 75
14 Honus Wagner 1900 73
15 Willie Stargell 1973 69
T16 Willie Stargell 1971 65
T16 Ralph Kiner 1947 65
18 Kiki Cuyler 1925 63
T19 Paul Waner 1927 62
T19 Paul Waner 1936 62
T21 Arky Vaughan 1938 61
T21 Brian Giles 2000 61
T21 Fred Carroll 1889 61
T21 Honus Wagner 1909 61
T21 Honus Wagner 1912 61
T26 Arky Vaughan 1933 59
T26 Arky Vaughan 1940 59
T26 Arky Vaughan 1934 59

Honus leads the way with 10 of the best seasons
Vaughan is second with 6 (surprisingly, including the best season of the bunch)
Kiner gets 3
Stargell and Waner with 2 apiece
then 5 players have 1 each

I am forced to say that Vaughan was the second best.

[pwdennis]

Curious - Roberto Clemente does not have one of the 26 best seasons in Pirate history

Hard to believe

[Rajah]

Originally posted by pwdennis
Curious - Roberto Clemente does not have one of the 26 best seasons in Pirate history

Hard to believe

Those are runs created above position, not above average. I like position better because it compares player x to his own position, rather than comparing the offensive contribution of a shortstop against a first baseman, where the shortstop is almost always at a disadvantage. I think it gives the measure better context.

Anyway, here's best seasons per RCAA, Clemente, once again, logs a poor showing.
1 Arky Vaughan 1935 98
2 Honus Wagner 1908 95
3 Barry Bonds 1992 94
4 Honus Wagner 1904 92
5 Ralph Kiner 1949 90
6 Honus Wagner 1900 89
7 Honus Wagner 1905 88
8 Ralph Kiner 1951 85
9 Honus Wagner 1907 83
10 Jimmy Williams 1899 78
11 Willie Stargell 1973 77
T12 Ralph Kiner 1947 74
T12 Honus Wagner 1901 74
14 Honus Wagner 1906 73
T15 Willie Stargell 1971 71
T15 Jake Stenzel 1895 71
T17 Jake Stenzel 1894 70
T17 Paul Waner 1936 70
T17 Paul Waner 1927 70
20 Honus Wagner 1903 69
21 Kiki Cuyler 1925 68
22 Brian Giles 2000 67
23 Elmer Smith 1896 65
T24 Arky Vaughan 1936 64
T24 Barry Bonds 1990 64
T24 Roberto Clemente 1967 64

8 appearances for Honus
3 for Kiner
Arky drops to 2
2 for Barry
2 for Stargell
Stenzel and Waner log 2 each, and everyone else clocks in at one per head.

[gyb13]

Rajah, here's something to consider:
RCAP is CRAP (http://www.netshrine.com/vbulletin2/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2783)

[Dr. Memory]

Best 21 single-season win shares based on 162-game rate:

EdMorris 1885 82
HonusWagner 1908 62
PinkHawley 1895 53
FrankKillen 1893 52
EdMorris 1886 51
HonusWagner 1906 48
HonusWagner 1905 48
HonusWagner 1907 45
HonusWagner 1904 45
HonusWagner 1909 44
HonusWagner 1901 43
PudGalvin 1887 43
ArkyVaughan 1935 41
BarryBonds 1992 41
HonusWagner 1903 40
HonusWagner 1902 40
EdMorris 1888 40
FrankKillen 1896 40
HonusWagner 1900 39
RalphKiner 1949 39
Arky Vaughan 1934 39

You'd have to make some mighty arbitrary timeline adjustments to take Morris's great season down some pegs that way. O' course, it was in the AA...

OTOH, Clemente clocked in with 12 seasons of 20 WS or more (377 career WS). Only Wagner had more. Others with 10 such seasons include Paul Waner (12 seasons over 20 WS, 423 career WS), Max Carey (11, 351), Willie Stargell (10, 370), and Pie Traynor (10, 274).

I go with Big Person.

As for the arguments re RCAP vs. crap, they seem to add up to "a hammer can hit your thumb and hurt you, so you should never use one to pound in a nail."

[sweaver]

Here's the Win Shares as a Pirate list:

Wagner 598
Waner 388
Clemente 377
Stargell 370
Carey 329
Vaughan 299
Clarke 282
Traynor 274
Wilbur Cooper, 250.