These ten guys are first.....basemen, that is.

[sweaver]

The top ten 1B of all time, according to me. ;)

10. Will Clark

9. Frank Thomas

8. Willie McCovey

7. Rafael Palmeiro

6. Roger Connor

5. Eddie Murray

4. Jeff Bagwell

3. Cap Anson

2. Jimmie Foxx

1. Lou Gehrig

No surprise for the top 2, but maybe in the rest of the list. I think Smed and Boomer will be happy with the 19th century representation on this particular list.

[JamesI]

10. George Sisler

9. Rafael Palmeiro

8. Willie McCovey

7. Roger Connor

6. Cap Anson

5. Jeff Bagwell (a few more years and he's #3)

4. Mark McGwire

3. Eddie Murray

2. Jimmie Foxx

1. Lou Gehrig

And a nice Oriole honorable mention (although he's not in the top 20 all time) to Boog Powell

[Skip]

Sweaver, you're just comin' too darn fast with these dude.

[sweaver]

Why I didn't include Sisler and McGwire (short version).

George Sisler was a high-average singles hitter in an era of high batting averages. He also had a fairly short career.

McGwire was also a one-dimensional player with a fairly short career, and gaps in that career as well. He also suffers in the ratings due to mediocre defense. He does manage to check in at #11, though.

[sweaver]

Originally posted by Skip
Sweaver, you're just comin' too darn fast with these dude. I had a long weekend, and time on my hands. Back to work tomorrow, though.

[Skip]

I'll ditto JamesI's top 3 though.

[Max Power]

sweaver - - Frank Thomas?

The guy has been in the bigs 13 years and played more than 99 games at first in a season just 3 times.

In 7 of those 13 seasons, he's played less than 60 games at 1B in a year.

In his career to date, he's played in 1698 games and only 55% of them have been at 1B. In the last 3 years, he's played just 37 games at 1B.

[JamesI]

Originally posted by Skip
I'll ditto JamesI's top 3 though.

Cool, another vote for Murray as #3 all time!

[JamesI]

Originally posted by sweaver
Why I didn't include Sisler and McGwire (short version).

George Sisler was a high-average singles hitter in an era of high batting averages. He also had a fairly short career.

McGwire was also a one-dimensional player with a fairly short career, and gaps in that career as well. He also suffers in the ratings due to mediocre defense. He does manage to check in at #11, though.

I understand both of these, but McGwire helped create the homer craze of the modern game. Sisler has points againts him, but his peak was too good, even for that era. Plus, both of these have to be better than Clark and Thomas!

[KCBOOMER]

I guess I would pick Dan Brouthers over Roger Connor, Johnny Mize over Frank Thomas, and Hank Greenberg over Will Clark (this was a comedy choice wasn't?). McGwire has to be on the list so either Palmeiro or Bagwell have to step aside.

[WiredTiger]

Please tell me that you are not serious when you rank Will Clark ahead of Hank Greenberg. My Motown heart is aching.:D

10. Willie Stargell
9. Rafael Palmeiro
8. Willie McCovey
7. Eddie Murray
6. Jeff Bagwell
5. Mark McGwire
4. Hank Greenberg
3. Cap Anson
2. Jimmie Foxx
1. Lou Gehrig


Recent times have been very kind to the 1B position. Bagwell is well on his way to finishing in the top 3. Palmeiro will move up also.

[JamesI]

Originally posted by WiredTiger
Please tell me that you are not serious when you rank Will Clark ahead of Hank Greenberg. My Motown heart is aching.:D


I'll agree Greenberg over Clark, but better than Murray? My Orioles heart has to disagree.

[sweaver]

Originally posted by Max Power
sweaver - - Frank Thomas?

Is the question---why is Thomas rated so highly? Because his seven good seasons were SO good, an intensely high peak of consecutive years (1991-97) that he was one of the greatest offensive forces ever for that length of time. Check the RCAA.

Is the question---why Thomas at first base? Gotta put him somewhere. If you break everyone down to one position, the one for Thomas is 1B. In 20 years, we may be able to get a DH category with a respectable number of people in it, but unless I'm gonna cheat and make a "multi-position" category for guys like Rose and Killebrew and Molitor, everybody has to have one position.

Greenberg was playing in a high-offense era, in a park made for him. Even when he went to Pittsburgh for his last season, they CHANGED to park to suit him. Plus, he wasn't much of a defensive player. All those things keep him out of the top 10.

Yes, Will Clark. I believe he is vastly underrated.

[pathogan]

Foxx,Greenberg, Buck leonard...

[LeGrandOrange]

Not counting guys that played more games at 1B but are known for playing other positions.
Obviously stoned while ranking these guys as well. :)

1. Lou Gehrig
2. Jimmie Foxx
3. Cap Anson
4. Roger Connor
5. Dan Brouthers
6. Eddie Murray
7. Rafael Palmeiro
8. Willie McCovey
9. Hank Greenberg
10. Jeff Bagwell

[WiredTiger]

Originally posted by sweaver

Greenberg was playing in a high-offense era, in a park made for him. Even when he went to Pittsburgh for his last season, they CHANGED to park to suit him. Plus, he wasn't much of a defensive player. All those things keep him out of the top 10.

Yes, Will Clark. I believe he is vastly underrated.
Clark is underrated but he isn't the player Greenberg was. A career OPS over a 1.000 can go a long ways in making someone forget about the defensive holes in his game. Tiger Stadium was definitely a hitter's park but it wasn't built for Greenberg. Greenberg is a righty and Tiger Stadium was more of a home run park for lefties with the short porch in right field. Greenberg also missed almost four whole seasons during WWII.

[sweaver]

True---I'll go back and see what accounting for military service does for Hank, I haven't done that yet.

[SmedIndy]

I think Anson is rated a bit too high - but I had to remove the Sabremetric Encyclopedia from my desktop at work because it interfered with other Windows 98 functions somehow....

[pwdennis]

10. Norm Cash

09. Orlando Cepeda

08. Roger Connor

07. Willie Mc Covey

06. Cap Anson

05. Eddie Murray

04. Jeff Bagwell

03. Mark McGwire

02. Jimmie Foxx

01. Lou Gehrig


I consider Palmiero & Thomas to be designated hitters

I like Will Clark but I think the truly underrated 1B is Norm Cash. As it is, 1B is a position overflowing with good hitters, since many good hitters have gravitated there over time. For instance, I tend to think of Willie Stargell as a 1B even though he spent significant time in the outfield (1296 OF/ 848 1B) , and my dad tends to think of Musial as a 1B (1890 OF / 1016 1B). Moreover, I have difficulty in assessing Negro League and 19th Century players. My gut reaction is to delete Anson since he may have pushed back the date in which bleack players were allowed in MLB; however, I didn't do this

[sweaver]

Greenberg note: I went back and gave Hank credit for his military time missed, and it put him at #11, just behind The Thrill. If I had assumed he'd play at an MVP level for all 4 years, he would have gone to #8 or 9, but I thought that was too much.

[JamesI]

Originally posted by pwdennis
I consider Palmiero & Thomas to be designated hitters


I'll concur on Thomas, but Palmerio has only been a DH recently. Until he returned to Texas, he was a top defensive first baseman.

[Fuzzy Bear]

01 Lou Gehrig
02 Jimmie Foxx
03 Mark McGwire
04 Jeff Bagwell
05 Eddie Murray
06 Willie McCovey
07 Rafael Palmiero
08 Fred McGriff
09 Keith Hernandez
10 Will Clark

Palmeiro has played 1,861 at 1B, vs. 307 at DH and 212 as an OF; it is not accurate to describe him as a DH.

[Jim Rice]

CAREER
1B

RCAA RCAA
1 Lou Gehrig 1247
2 Jimmie Foxx 951
3 Dan Brouthers 934
4 Roger Connor 732
T5 Johnny Mize 667
T5 Mark McGwire 667
7 Cap Anson 659
8 Jeff Bagwell 642
9 Willie McCovey 536
10 Frank Thomas 505

This is not how I would rank the top-10 of all time, but it does make it clear that any list without Johnny Mize is simply wrong. Tied for fifth all-time in RCAA at an offensive position, despite losing three prime years (ages 30-32) to WWII. He's 11th in Win Shares despite this handicap as well, and caps this by playing "B" level defense according to Bill James, better than everyone on this list but Connor and Foxx.

[sweaver]

I had somehow neglected to include Johnny Mize when I was running the numbers (one reason I am posting them here, to have you folks help me catch the gaffes--thanks, JR) but he slots in right behind McGwire, #12 on my list.

[sweaver]

If I also give Mize credit for war service, then he becomes #3, behind only Gehrig and Foxx.

[Fuzzy Bear]

Originally posted by Fuzzy Bear
01 Lou Gehrig
02 Jimmie Foxx
03 Mark McGwire
04 Jeff Bagwell
05 Eddie Murray
06 Willie McCovey
07 Rafael Palmiero
08 Fred McGriff
09 Keith Hernandez
10 Will Clark

Palmeiro has played 1,861 at 1B, vs. 307 at DH and 212 as an OF; it is not accurate to describe him as a DH.

How could I have forgotten Johnny Mize?

I would rate Mize #7, just after McCovey, pushing Palmiero, McGriff, Hernandez, and Clark down a notch. On Peak Value, I would rate Mize as high as #3, possibly.

[Fuzzy Bear]

Originally posted by JamesI
I'll concur on Thomas, but Palmerio has only been a DH recently. Until he returned to Texas, he was a top defensive first baseman.

Palmiero has never really been a DH. He is perceived as one only because he received a Gold Glove at 1B during the one year in his career where he really was primarily a DH, thus generating controversy.

[gyb13]

true. he was a an OF 86-88, first baseman 89-98, DH 99, and mostly 1B (but part-time DH) since...

[sweaver]

Listed with WARP3 career values, peak (top three Win Shares) and total.

1. Lou Gehrig 140.3 127 267.3
2. Jimmie Foxx 132.1 105 237.1
3. Johnny Mize 103.7 103 206.7*
4. Cap Anson 144.6 83 227.6
5. Jeff Bagwell 112.5 110 222.5
6. Eddie Murray 127.3 95 222.3
7. Roger Connor 123.0 98 221.0
8. Rafael Palmeiro 124.8 92 216.8
9. Willie McCovey 109.3 107 216.3
10. Will Clark 99.2 105 214.2
11. Hank Greenberg 84.4 98 182.4*
12. Mark McGwire 106.7 101 207.7
13. Harmon Killebrew 99.5 105 204.5
14. Dick Allen 87.3 116 203.3
15. Dan Brouthers 101.8 94 195.8
16. John Olerud 98.4 97 195.4
17. Keith Hernandez 103.5 91 194.5
18. Tony Perez 97.8 96 193.8
19. Don Mattingly 89.7 95 184.7
20. Orlando Cepeda 87.5 93 180.5
21. Fred McGriff 97.2 83 180.2
22. Norm Cash 85.6 93 178.6
23. Jason Giambi 64.7 106 170.7
24. Bill Terry 76.9 93 169.9
25. Mark Grace 92.3 77 169.3
25. (tie) Jim Thome 79.3 90 169.3
27. George Sisler 73.8 91 164.8
28. Mickey Vernon 74.7 86 160.7
29. Steve Garvey 80.8 78 158.8
30. Gil Hodges 72.7 80 152.7

* = extra credit given for war service or segregation.

Notice Giambi at #23, and moving up fast. He's got the peak numbers, he just needs to add the career stuff. Thome will make a leap this year as well.