Expos-Yankees-Whitesox trade [Archive] - NetShrine Discussion Forum

Max Power

01-15-2003, 11:49 AM

The Whitesox get P Bartolo Colon and minor league INF Jorge Nunez from the Expos

The Expos get P Orlando Hernandez from the Yankees, OF Jeff Liefer and P Rocky Biddle from the Whitesox, along with cash

The Yankees get P Antonio Osuna and minor league P Delvis Lantigua from the Whitesox.

- - - Delvis Lantigua? Sounds like a rash.

Max Power

01-15-2003, 11:51 AM

BTW - - I think the Expos got a steal in this deal - - by far.

willyg

01-15-2003, 12:02 PM

You must like Biddle and Liefer alot, because El Duque is at most a until the deadline move for them.

The Expos just gave up a legit #1 starter, a guy who can win 20 next season. I think they could have kept Colon and dealt him for much more at the deadline to a desperate team like Boston.

sweaver

01-15-2003, 12:07 PM

I have a Delvis Lantigua on my rump......

Interesting deal...Colon is traded, but not to the Yanks or Bosox! Saw it this morning on New York Times online as a rumor, then the same on Lee's ATM report, then it came through as finished!

The White Sox are again taking a chance by throwing a lot of talent to get a "name" player. Colon is a fine pitcher, and can help them challenge the Twins in the Central, if he is healthy. He has been seriously overworked the last few years. The Expos pick up another capable pitcher to replace Colon in their rotation, Leifer, who goes straight into the lineup at either LF or 1B, and Biddle for the bullpen. The Yankees mostly clear away one of their 8 starters, but also get a good reliever in Osuna.

Gosfgiants

01-15-2003, 12:15 PM

I'm just surprised that there was a three way deal without Oakland being involved.

Max Power

01-15-2003, 12:26 PM

How many more games will Colon win in 2002 over Duque for the Expos? 5? Maybe seven?

Both walk after this year.

So, for a handful of wins this year, the Expos get a 28 year old 1B who will give them 25 HRs in a full season, a swing man for the pen, and cash.

That's why this is a good deal for them, IMHO.

Goose

01-15-2003, 12:36 PM

What a great job by the Yankees.

They got rid of a starting pitcher, making it that much easier to ensure that Weaver is in the rotation.

They got a somewhat dependable reliever.

They kept Colon away from the Red Sox.

HAT TRICK! :)

LeGrandOrange

01-15-2003, 12:41 PM

Wow...you know what, I like this trade. :)
We dealt Colon, and not to the Yankees, we got a sometimes good corner fielder who is known to hit the ball hard, and Biddle has a cool name. :)

Selig better not be toying with Expo fans here with this presmuably good trade.

pathogan

01-15-2003, 12:46 PM

Originally posted by LeGrandOrange
Wow...you know what, I like this trade. :)
We dealt Colon, and not to the Yankees, we got a sometimes good corner fielder who is known to hit the ball hard, and Biddle has a cool name. :)

Selig better not be toying with Expo fans here with this presmuably good trade.

What next.?..Minaya ,man what could he do with some $ behind him?great great deal for expos

poorme

01-15-2003, 01:00 PM

well, the sox deal away two more young pitchers for a guy who will be with them for one year, at most. I guess I support the trade, but then again I thought the todd ritchie deal was a good idea too.

biddle is a sleeper. he's been hurt a lot, but if he's healthy, he could be a real nice pitcher. i guess you have to give something to get something, though.

gyb13

01-15-2003, 01:12 PM

I like the trade from the three teams' perspectives.

Expos - came away with the best talent. i think Liefer will have a great year for them (nice R-L combo with Vlad and him).

Yankees - get rid of a starter without paying his salary and get some value in return

White Sox - now have a great one-two punch (Colon-Buehrle) that will put them in contention for the division

KCBOOMER

01-15-2003, 01:34 PM

I thought the Expos got hosed, but maybe not as bad as I thought. Liefer has a career .725 OPS and will be 28 this year. Seems a little late to expect greatness from him but maybe he will average ML season if he can get 500 AB's. Biddle will be 27 and looks like he might be a decent middle reliefer. El Duque should just retire.

Maybe the cash and cash savings make it worthwhile.

I thought the Yanks came up roses. They got a better pitcher and relieved some of the logjam in the starting rotation.

boot2112

01-15-2003, 01:41 PM

This has to be the best trade Kenny Williams has made in his notorious tenure as White Sox GM. Colon is a #1 pitcher, peroid. That gives the Sox 2 of the 20? legit aces in baseball. They are not Schilling and Johnson but I would put Colon and Buhrle against any other 1 2 punch in the league. In Leifer they give up a spare part really. They have never been able find ABs for. He should produce decent numbers for Mont. but he was not going to play over Thomas, Ordonez, Konerko, or Lee. With Joe Borchard waiting in the wings it was time to get what they could for him. Biddle has a decent arm and can have moderate success if given the chance to pitch but the Sox have 8 young pitchers with better arms and higher top end potential; not a big loss. Osuna is a quality reliver but again the White Sox dealt from a position of strength. They have Koch (too bad not still Foulke), Marte, Wunsch, and a host of young arms for the pen. I am not saying these players are bad but you do have to give up something for an ace and IMO they gave up the minimum.

The Expos did well to cut payroll and get some uasable part in Liefer and Biddle as well as a name starter to replace Colon. The Yankees did get a reliver they really needed and kept Colon away from the Bo Sox. It would be sweet justice if Colon could knock them out of the playoffs with the White Sox.

JamesI

01-15-2003, 01:52 PM

If the Sox won't keep Colon, I don't believe. I expect him to be traded by midyear, unless the Sox are actually competing for the playoffs.

The Yanks dumping Hernandez is a good move.

WiredTiger

01-15-2003, 02:06 PM

I think this was a win-win-win trade. The White Sox get a sorely needed starter that will help them contend or become trade bait at the deadline. The Expos got rid of salary and got decent return. The Yankees got rid of salary and got a decent return for El Duque.

LeGrandOrange

01-15-2003, 02:15 PM

A win-win-win situation...that's a first. :)

clemente21

01-15-2003, 02:50 PM

Kudos to Kenny Williams!

Liefer: A guy without a position, with a .301 OBP. The WhiteSox are loaded at OF/1B/DH. He had begged to be traded for about a year now. But in Montreal, he can either start at 1B or be the primary LH pinch-hitter.

Osuna: Does anybody remember what the WhiteSox traded to get Osuna? I don't remember it being a heck of a lot. A good one-year rental of a setup man, and they have a lot of pitchers in the minors.

Biddle: Jack McDowell or Scott Ruffcorn? The jury is still out. But I'm happy that they traded Osuna & Biddle instead of just Rauch.

Lantigua: Who???

The Yankees get rid of one of their excess starters, and make sure that the Red Sox don't get Colon. They must figure that they can still take the White Sox in a playoff series, and I'd tend to agree.

The Expos are the losers in this deal. They should have never traded Brandon Phillips and friends for Colon in the first place.

poorme

01-15-2003, 03:08 PM

Originally posted by clemente21
Osuna: Does anybody remember what the WhiteSox traded to get Osuna? I don't remember it being a heck of a lot

he was a free agent who blew out his arm in spring training. came back in good shape last year. he's due to miss this year after being out all of 1999 and 2001

OaktownTribeFan

01-15-2003, 03:10 PM

The Chisox appear to have gotten the best of this deal. One key factor is Colon's weight. The Sporting News has quoted scouts saying he's now at 260 lbs: "He's gotten so big all over, his eyes are ready to shut."

http://www.sportingnews.com/voices/ken_rosenthal/mailbag/20030114.html

gyb13

01-15-2003, 03:19 PM

Originally posted by clemente21
Does anybody remember what the WhiteSox traded to get Osuna? in march 2001, the white sox traded three minor leaguers - Gary Majewski (5-3, 2.65 ERA in 57 games for AA Birmingham in 2002), Andre Simpson (0-4, 4.46 ERA in 28 games for A South Georgia and Asheville in 2002), and Orlando Rodriguez (3-0, 0.00 ERA in 27 games for A Vero Beach and A South Georgia in 2002) and received Osuna and Carlos Ortega (4-2, 4.55 ERA in 14 games for A Vero Beach in 2002).

poorme

01-15-2003, 03:24 PM

that's right..and then williams signed him to a big contract extension..forgot the trade. he got hurt like a week after williams signed him to the extension. you know some guys are just cursed (williams, not osuna)

WiredTiger

01-15-2003, 03:42 PM

Originally posted by OaktownTribeFan
The Chisox appear to have gotten the best of this deal. One key factor is Colon's weight. The Sporting News has quoted scouts saying he's now at 260 lbs: "He's gotten so big all over, his eyes are ready to shut."

http://www.sportingnews.com/voices/ken_rosenthal/mailbag/20030114.html

I thought he was getting big last year and thought he'd have a bad year. Sometimes weight is not that important with a pitcher.

gyb13

01-15-2003, 03:53 PM

don't they also say that a lot of his power comes from his heavy legs?

Craig S.

01-15-2003, 04:27 PM

Great move by the Expos, assuming they actually spend the money they receive to further improve the team.

Hard to find fault with any team in this deal, really.

gyb13

01-15-2003, 04:32 PM

AAA Charlotte
15 G, 8 GS, 1-5, 5.85 ERA, 52.1 IP, 7.9 H/9, 1.4 K/BB, 7.1 K/9

AA Birmingham
16 G, 15 GS, 6-2, 3.48 ERA, 85.1 IP, 7.1 H/9, 1.9 K/BB, 7.0 K/9

TimmyB

01-15-2003, 05:17 PM

Great move by all three.

Given my RedSox-centric POV, not a nice move by NY, though. :splat:

Fuzzy Bear

01-15-2003, 05:55 PM

Originally posted by WiredTiger
I think this was a win-win-win trade. The White Sox get a sorely needed starter that will help them contend or become trade bait at the deadline. The Expos got rid of salary and got decent return. The Yankees got rid of salary and got a decent return for El Duque.

It really is a good trade all around. The Yankees also were able to rearrange their talent to fill needs; while El Duque may have been an excellent long reliever, I am not sure he would have accepted the role.

I agree that this is a GREAT trade for the Expos. I think Colon will only win 15 games next year, and I think El Duque may have his best year yet. Biddle is OK, but Liefer may have the best season of his career. He's going to be 27 next season, and he bats left. I think part of his problem is that there hasn't been a regular job waiting for him. I don't expect him to make the All Star team, but I would not be shocked if he hit 30 HRs.

The White Sox made out the worst in this trade because they are putting all their eggs in one basket. Perhaps I'll start a thread on this.

Rajah

01-15-2003, 05:57 PM

"Rash" Lantigua (sounds like a good nickname to me) also just turned 23, so he may have still been a bit overmatched for AAA. Who knows, maybe Rash will end up being a decent middle reliever? He's kind of little though (6'0, 176 lbs).

I like the trade overall, but I'm guessing the money that Omar got will go toward current payroll, allowing him to work with a 42 million payroll. He said he's still not done. Who goes next? Do you think he'll try to move El Duque? The ESPN article on this said that E D is up for arbitration and will likely get $5 million.
(Side note: arbitration has gots to go, perhaps, for young players, write into the next CBA that upon reaching certain performance objectives, they get an automatic raise? - ah, a topic for elsewhere)

I'm guessing E D will be dumped elsewhere. Any ideas as to who would want a seriously injury prone older than listed pitcher with good stuff when he's healthy and a 5 million price tag? Sounds like a guy the cubs or rangers would go for...

Max Power

01-15-2003, 07:32 PM

Originally posted by Fuzzy Bear
It really is a good trade all around. The Yankees also were able to rearrange their talent to fill needs; while El Duque may have been an excellent long reliever, I am not sure he would have accepted the role.

According to Yankee GM Cashman on ESPN Radio, Duque wanted to start and welcomed a chance to go to a team where he knew he would be a regular in a rotation.

daredevil456

01-16-2003, 03:58 AM

I agree that this trade helps all 3 teams. As a Yank fan I am sorry to see Duque go, but realize it had to be done, and I am ecstatic that the Red Sox got screwed again!! Osuna will do a very good job in the bullpen.

TimmyB

01-16-2003, 08:56 AM

Originally posted by daredevil456
I agree that this trade helps all 3 teams. As a Yank fan I am sorry to see Duque go, but realize it had to be done, and I am ecstatic that the Red Sox got screwed again!!

Perhaps I wasn't clear in my previous post. For the record, please allow me to re-state (ahem): :splat:

Welcome aboard, daredevil! :D

daredevil456

01-16-2003, 10:44 AM

thanks for the welcome mat, looking forward to trading posts with everyone

gyb13

01-16-2003, 10:47 AM

BP wrote an article saying that Montreal got ripped off:
http://www.baseballprospectus.com/news/20030115daily.shtml

another way one could look at it is remove colon from the equation. then it was basically:

traded: Lee Stevens, Brandon Phillips, Grady Sizemore, Cliff Lee, Tim Drew, Jorge Nunez
received: Orlando Hernandez, Jeff Liefer, Rocky Biddle, cash

would you make that deal?

sweaver

01-16-2003, 11:18 AM

Naw, I wouldn't. But there were indeed two deals, made at different times for different reasons. This deal was made to decrease payroll while acquiring players to plug some holes, and the Expos accomplished that.

I don't think this particular deal makes them a lesser team, although the overall effect of the two deals does. But that's in the long run, which at the point of the Colon trade last year, no one was sure the Expos would have a long run.

Fatwater Fewl

01-16-2003, 01:59 PM

I'm mostly in agreement with the BP article. I've been chasing this trade around my head since it happened trying to find an angle where it looks good for the Expos. I can't find that angle. Of course, it doesn't look real bad for them, either, but it seems a useless trade to me. And it is. It was made for one reason: to cut the Expos payroll. We all know that.

I'm a very sad Canadian baseball fan today. A lot of old wounds are touched by this deal. Whether or not the Expos could survive in Montreal is a moot point. I'm simply saddened that Selig and MLB have seemed dedicated for a long time to cutting the legs out from under any chance that grass roots support could grow and baseball begin to flourish again there.

As a rule, I don't use smilies. But this deal, in the context of all that has gone before, has finally driven me to it. So, Bud Selig, I'm looking at you. :shakehd: :bigbarf:

cubfan33

01-16-2003, 02:18 PM

Jonah kicks ass.

With the Expos an assured move - we're just waiting to see which DC bid wins - we have to start looking at the Expos in context. Essentially, they'll be an expansion team with no expansion draft. They're stocked with one star, a couple potentially good players, and nothing much in the minors. Whatever millionaire comes in will surely throw some money at free agents and in all likelihood will follow the Arizona model. Not so bad, if you can look past this year.

Doc Pontoon

01-16-2003, 06:35 PM

In evaluating this trade from the Pale Hose' point of view, it's definitely to their credit that they didn't give up any players who weren't fungible... unlike the Ritchie trade, for example. Still, I'd say that you couldn't call this Williams' best move until we see how D'Angelo Jiminez turns out. As for the BP analysis, as well as most of the other analysis I've seen, everybody seems to be forgetting one key fact: 2002 was Colon's best year. He won 14, 15, and 18 games with a pretty good Indians team his last three years, good-but-not-great numbers. He's a good pitcher, to be sure, but the Sox bought high nonetheless. I sure would have much preferred to see them get Vazquez.

The Expos definitely should have tried to get at least one high-upside Brandon Phillips type in any Colon trade. Still, I don't think that Colon for El Duque is really that huge a downgrade, Biddle might make up the difference, and Liefer is a heck of a useful part.

The Yankees can suck it. I hope Osuna regains his 2001 form.

Duque

01-16-2003, 08:37 PM

Well, according to our own Max Power, Hernandez is guaranteed to provide the Expos with at least 75 wins over the next 3 years. :D

I think this was quite creative on Cashman's part - even though the Yankees weren't a major factor in the deal.

The White Sox are hard to predict - if everything breaks right, Colon and Buehrle keep up their form, Garland and Rauch realize their potential, etc, etc, they could be a strong contender. Still, I don't see any team in the division getting more than 90 wins.