Giants' offseason [merged threads]

[gyb13]

The Giants were six outs from a championship and self-destructed. They've lost manager Dusty Baker and replaced him with Felipe Alou. Barry Bonds will 'age' another year. They may lose a third of the lineup to free agency. What needs to be done to prevent a downfall?

C Santiago, Torrealba
1B Snow
2B Kent (FA)
SS Aurilia
3B Bell (FA-phi)
LF Bonds
CF Lofton (FA)
RF Sanders (FA)
IF Minor, Martinez, Mueller (FA), Feliz, Perez*
OF Shinjo (waived), Goodwin (FA), Dunston (FA), Benard

SP Hernandez, Ortiz, Schmidt, Rueter, Jensen, Ainsworth, Williams
RP Nen, Rodriguez, Worrell, Zerbe, Fultz, Witasick, Eyre

according to the Contra-Costa Times (http://www.bayarea.com/mld/bayarea/sports/baseball/mlb/san_francisco_giants/4655028.htm), they are talking to Steve Finley, Ray Durham, and Edgardo Alfonzo, and pondering whether they should offer arbitration to Kent (who could go to CHC or LA otherwise)

[sweaver]

They should offer arbitration to Kent, and signing Alfonzo would be a good idea, Durham as a fallback. The idea of trading a pitcher or two for outfielders is a good one.

[qtlaw]

If Kent would agree to arbitration (13-14M) that would be great but I doubt it especially where the CHC or LA is offering probably 40M guaranteed for 3. Alfonzo would fit in, I like that he is a good contact hitter who would get more opportunities in front of or behind Bonds but I wonder about his conditioning, e.g. back. Durham would also help, he would probably be reinvigorated like Lofton but would have to play 2B. Finley, if the cost is not too much because he's getting older, but damn he's been the latest version of Dale Murphy, Ron Cey, the dreaded Giant killer.

Mr. Sabean, if you are on here, PLEASE DO NOT TRADE ORTIZ. He's the most solid starter you have, including Schmidt.

[sweaver]

You offer Kent arbitration so that you get the draft pick if he signs somewhere else.

[qtlaw]

I thought that the new agreement eliminates this compensation, although I'm not sure when it kicks in.

[gyb13]

Originally posted by qtlaw
I thought that the new agreement eliminates this compensation, although I'm not sure when it kicks in. No, they originally were going to have this clause, but it got removed from the contract in the 11th hour. The press had a tiny bit of coverage about it, but it was late in the season and there were larger stories overshadowing it. I'll see if I can find a link.

[Fuzzy Bear]

Originally posted by qtlaw
Mr. Sabean, if you are on here, PLEASE DO NOT TRADE ORTIZ. He's the most solid starter you have, including Schmidt.

By and large, I agree with the sentiment about Ortiz.

Alfonso would fit in well. He would also give them flexibility at 2B and 3B, although, if I were the Giants, I'd put Alfonso at 2B and try to use a platoon to cover 3B.

[OaktownTribeFan]

Giants ink Ray Durham to free agent contract
(from the Giants website)

SAN FRANCISCO -- In a move to add one of the premier offensive catalysts in all of baseball, the San Francisco Giants have reached agreement on a three-year contract (with a fourth-year player option) with free agent Ray Durham, club Senior Vice President and General Manager Brian Sabean announced today.
Per team policy, terms of the deal were not disclosed.

The two-time All Star owns a .278 lifetime batting average with 827 runs, 263 doubles, 57 triples, 112 home runs, 506 RBI and 225 stolen bases in 1,200 Major League contests. A proven offensive threat, the 31-year-old is one of only four players in the majors to have scored at least 100 runs in each of the last six seasons, dating back to the 1997 campaign. Also reknowned for his baserunning prowess, Durham joins Alex Rodriguez and Derek Jeter as the only three players in all of baseball to accumulate a .360 on-base pct. with 500 runs scored and 100 steals since 1998.

Truly a multi-faceted offensive threat, the eight-year Major League veteran has posted at least 15 home runs with 100 runs, 20 steals, a .450 slugging percentage and 65 RBI in each of the last three seasons, becoming just the ninth player in baseball history to accomplish the feat. In fact, Durham joins a list that includes future and current Hall of Famers Hank Aaron, Willie Mays, Joe Morgan, Barry Bonds and Alex Rodriguez.

"Ray is a proven commodity who can bring a high level of run production to our offense," said Sabean. "He's an excellent athlete who plays solid defense and will give Felipe (Alou) some versatility in how he uses him. He is established as one of the premier lead-off men in the game."

Durham, who broke in with the Chicago White Sox in 1995, hit a combined .289 with 114 runs, 15 home runs, 70 RBI and 26 steals in 150 games for the White Sox and Oakland Athletics this past season -- the seventh consecutive season he has reached the 150-game plateau. After hitting .299 in 96 games with Chicago, he was dealt to Oakland on July 25 for minor league pitcher Jon Adkins. An immediate sparkplug, the A's posted a 38-16 (.704) record with Durham in the lineup while scoring 5.4 runs per contest. He hit at a .274 clip with 43 runs in 54 games with Oakland.

The Charlotte, NC native joins the defending National League champions having reached the post-season in two of the last three seasons. In the 2002 ALDS, Durham hit .333 (7-for-21) with seven runs, 2 home runs and 2 RBI as Oakland lost in five games to Minnesota.

They also signed Marquis Grissom to a 2-year deal.

Are these good moves for the Giants? Will Durham & Grissom make up for the departure of Lofton & Bell and possible loss of Kent?

http://espn.go.com/mlb/news/2002/1207/1473034.html

[sweaver]

At this point in his career, Grissom is a decent platoon player, nothing more. If they are counting on him to be the everyday CF, now that Steve Finley has elected to re-sign with the Diamondbacks, well at least he won't be worse than Shinjo offensively, and better than Lofton defensively. Whether this will be enough, I am doubtful. Durham makes a nice pickup, and the first good leadoff hitter they have had for some time, but some more power to support Bonds would be very helpful.

[Gosfgiants]

It's a little early to tell. Give Brian Sabaen a chance to make some deals. He likes to wait and see and them make his moves. Ask this question again in about a month or so.

[WiredTiger]

I wonder if the door has been left open slightly for Kent to return as their third baseman.

[sweaver]

I would guess more likely for Kent to play 1B than 3B. He never seemed comfortable at third for some reason. But, if Kent goes back to the Giants, he is far more likely to go to 2B with Durham in the OF.

[JamesI]

I think the Giants will be ok if Kent resigns or they get a good outfielder/1st baseman. Do they still have Sanders next season?
Grissom will do well as a backup/platoon outfielder and Durham will give them a better leadoff person they Lodton.

[KCBOOMER]

Durham is a good upgrade over Lofton, but, obviously, he is not Kent.

[Duque]

If they do re-sign Kent and put him at 1st, their offense could be better than last year - Durham makes the solid leadoff man they've never had.

Then, they could swing a deal with their surplus pitching, say Reuter or Ortiz, for another OF bat, and promote Williams/Ainsworth to the rotation.

[sweaver]

Originally posted by JamesI
Do they still have Sanders next season?
Sanders went Free Agent. John Perricone at Only Baseball Matters indicates the Giants may wait and do their shopping after the non-tenders next month.

[qtlaw]

Durham will help. Maybe the Giants will finally play some speed ball (Billy Ball) to generate some runs. Grissom showed some things last year as a Dodger but I doubt he can duplicate Sanders' numbers. The arb offer to Kent was heartening. I hope they can get it done. Maybe like Bonds, he will not get the huge mega contract, 6 or 7 years, but a 3-4 deal at somewhat reasonable numbers.

Once again I repeat, DO NOT TRADE ORTIZ! He is what everyone clamors for, a young stud (28) who has already established himself as a winner. No he's not Doc Gooden but he's just one tier down. Except for Morris, there are not many other young pitchers in his class. If you do trade him, you better get someone better than JD Drew or Jose Cruz, Jr. (how long has he been "an up and coming star"?)

[LisaG]

well guys and gals, if the rumors thread is true, and russ ortiz is traded straight up for brian giles, the, it doesn't matter much if reggie sanders resigns, does it? and durham is much better than lofton! or shinjo. and i don't think LA really wants kent- they're shedding salaries. and isn't bill mueller still around?

[sweaver]

Mueller is a free agent.

[Golden Bear]

Seems to me that the Giants are going with a veteran heavy strategy to make more runs at the pennant before age inevitably makes Bonds comes back to earth.

Grissom is still a GG-quality CF with a little pop; you don't want him to be the key to your offense, but if he's batting 7th or 8th, you're OK.

Kent wants to re-sign; my guess is he'll take a one-year deal with a player option to avoid arbitration. My guess is he'll play 2b, Grissom will play CF, and Durham will play RF. RF is huge in Pac Bell Park, and his speed will help. They'll keep Snow at first (as much to help hide the fielding deficiencies of Kent and Aurelia as anything) and give Pedro Feliz a shot at 3b.

Sample lineup:

Durham - RF
Aurelia - SS
Bonds - LF (I'm assuming Alou corrects Baker's folly here)
Kent - 2b
Snow - 1b
Santiago - C (reverse Snow and Benito against lefties)
Grissom - CF
Feliz - 3b
Pitcher

The bottom is still a little weak, but not bad.

If they get Giles, wow, the middle of that lineup is awesome. Giles would bat cleanup, Kent 5th. Giles would have to play right, putting Durham at 2nd and Kent at 3rd. Feliz is the odd man out, probably, although it could be Snow with Kent going to 1b.

Boy that would be a poor defensive IF, though (but a great OF). Durham is a poorer 2b than Kent, and Kent is a poorer 3b than 2b.

[sweaver]

That lineup is pretty much the same as it's been the last few years, but with a better leadoff hitter. I am hoping Alou, with his willingness to go with the young guys, gives Damon Minor a shot at 1B.

[Golden Bear]

If nothing else, Snow will be on a very short leash (and deservedly so). He barely hit his weight much of last season.

However, the importance of a good-fielding first baseman is greatly magnified when the other members of the infield are sub-par. It's fair to say that Kent, Aurelia, and Durham are all below average; Snow helps disguise their weaknesses with stretches, scoops, and range to his right (for the 2b). They'd lose that with Minor, who is pretty immobile in the field.

I'm guessing that with his defense and his excellent postseason performance, Snow gets a shot to open the season. But he's riding pine fast if he has a bad April.

[sweaver]

The Giants' 40-man roster at the beginning of the Winter Meetings stands like this:
Pitchers (18)
Ainsworth, Kurt
Aybar, Manny
Christiansen, Jason
Eyre, Scott
Fultz, Aaron
Hernandez, Livan
Jensen, Ryan
Nathan, Joe
Nen, Robb
Ortiz, Russ
Rodriguez, Felix
Rueter, Kirk
Schmidt, Jason
Urban, Jeff
Williams, Jerome
Witasick, Jay
Worrell, Tim
Zerbe, Chad

Catchers (4)
Guzman, Edwards
Lunsford, Trey
Santiago, Benito
Torrealba, Yorvit

Infielders (10)
Aurilia, Rich
Durham, Ray
Feliz, Pedro
Martinez, Ramon
Minor, Damon
Niekro, Lance
Perez, Neifi
Ransom, Cody
Santos, Deivis
Snow, J.T

Outfielders (6)
Benard, Marvin
Bonds, Barry
Ellison, Jason
Grissom, Marquis
Torcato, Tony
Valderrama, Carlos

[sweaver]

With Alfonzo now signed, but Kent looking less likely, here's a lineup guess:

Durham- 2B
Aurelia - SS
Bonds - LF
Alfonzo - 3b
Snow - 1b
Santiago - C
Grissom - CF
Benard - RF
Pitcher

They still need another guy to stick in the OF, so they can platoon Benard and Grissom and minimize the damage. But, it's looking like more RBI for Bonds next year, especially if the new RF can bat cleanup.

[sweaver]

OK, the Ortiz-Moss trade leaves a rotation of Schmidt, Hernandez, Reuter and Moss, plus whichever young pitcher Alou picks to go in there. That's two lefties and two righties, plus a young arm. Or are the Giants still trying to trade Livan, maybe for an outfielder? Perhaps they can get Drew for Hernandez.

[qtlaw]

Drew for Hernandez? Are you kidding me? FedEx, messenger, fax Hernandez NOW!!!

[LisaG]

do you mean jd drew or tim drew? cuz jd has patellar tendenitis which is not good. to put it mildly.

it will be interesting to see how moss does without glavine to coach him. braves seem to be winners here. i'm not so sure getting rid of ortiz and 4 mill was such a good idea. well, we'll have to see.

[lonelybrewerfan]

Ok, I'm back and I have some things i want to discuss,

If you guys didnt already know I adopted the Giants as my home team in these trying times for Brewer fans so....

Brian Sabean says he's not done and they do need on OF with some pop... so what is he going to do? Are there any worthwhile non-tenders that are going to be coming? Or is he thinking about trading some of that young pitching for a real stud.

Second, on the trade front, from the Rangers perspective, would you take on the albatroos that is Roger Ceneno just to get Astacia and to get rid of Van Poppel.

ESPN is reporting that if the Mets dump some salary they would sign Cliff Floyd.

Last, the Brewers need to step up their offer and get Michael Barret from the Expos, they need a young guy who can handle a staff

[Max Power]

One topic per thread, please, thanks.

[lonelybrewerfan]

sorry

[poorme]

well, lonely, pick a topic for us.

[lonelybrewerfan]

Lets talk about the Giants and their chances of getting back to the Series. I love what sabean has done but I don't think hes done dealing. Should we still expect him to get a bat to hit behind bonds?

[530435RM]

I know the Giants wanted Giles and his relatively cheap contract real bad. The Pirates were asking for too much and they should be considering he is their franchise player.

Their of have been a few rumors about Adam Dunn being available, but that does not make sense to me from the Reds standpoint. Griffey is obviously available for the right price. I would be in favor of the Giants giving up a pitching prospect and either Livan or Jensen. Salary is the problem with that deal because Junior makes over 10 million a year. Bonds and/or Griffey would have to defer some money.

Tony Torcato, the Giants RF prospect, could be a good hitter average wise next year; however, he would not produce power numbers.

[KCBOOMER]

1. Carlos beltranis available and if you can't skin Allard Baird in a trade you need to retire as a GM.

2. No. Never take on an albatross.

3. Well, Cliff is looking for a job.

4. Michael Barrett is a young Brent Mayne. Find somebody who can hit.

[530435RM]

Cliff Floyd would be great, but they would have to find a way to dump more salary because Floyd is a free agent.

Beltran would be a great fit for the team because he would be a solution at third base, but trusting him with the responsablity of batting behind Bonds is a lot to ask of a player on a new team and in a new league.

Griffey may be an Albatross, but all he needs to do is get in shape and re-focus. Griffey needs to get out of Cincinatti, his stint their has put a black eye on his great career. He still has more talent than any free agent bat on the market. You could then bat Griffey ahead of Bonds and Alfonso behind Bonds. Or you could bat Alfonso second, Bonds third, and Griffey fourth with either Aurilia or Santiago behind Griffey.

[Skip]

Lonely ... since you aimed this at the Giants, I merged your thread into the ongoing Giants offseason thread. If anyone wants to talk about the other items please find or start an appropriate thread. Thanks.

[gyb13]

ok, let's take this back to the giants.

CF Durham
SS Aurilia
2B Alfonzo
LF Bonds
C Santiago
1B Snow/Minor
RF Grissom/Benard
3B Feliz/Martinez

Hernandez, Schmidt, Moss, Rueter, and one of Jensen, Ainsworth, or Williams

I still look to make a move for an outfielder. how about jose cruz, who is about to be non-tendered?

[sweaver]

Originally posted by 530435RM
Beltran would be a great fit for the team because he would be a solution at third base, Beltran at third base? Not that I'm aware of, but he would be an excellent answer in CF.

I like your lineup better than mine, gyb. Hopefully for the Giants, Alou does too. Although Grissom sounded like he wouldn't be happy if he's not playing every day.

[gyb13]

another non-tender they can look at is rob fick!

[530435RM]

Shit!

Sorry about the Beltran third base reference. I have always asumed that he played third. Someday I have to watch a Royals game!

Screw trading for outfield help if they can pick up Cruz Jr. or Fick for cheap. Assuming they do get another good bat in the outfield here is my opening day lineup.

vs. left handed pitcher

Durham 2B
Aurilia SS
Bonds LF
Alfonso 3B
Fick/Cruz Jr. RF
Grissom CF
Snow/Minor 1B
Santiago C

vs. right handed pitcher

Durham 2B
Aurilia SS
Bonds LF
Alfonso 3B
Fick/Cruz Jr. RF
Snow/Minor 1B
Santiago C
Benard CF

I do not think many people will argue with Durham leading off almost every day.

Aurilia's spot in the batting order will be a key decision for Alou to make this season. If Richie can bat somewhere in between his amazing 2001 season and his lackluster 2002 season I think he should bat in the two spot. I hope he at least gets a chance to start the season in the two hole.

Under the assumption of getting another good bat in the outfield I think it is important to get Bonds back in the three spot. It is preferable to have your best hitter batting third. The Giants lack of protection of Bonds was a special situation last year. Bonds would of never been moved if Kent had not started the season so poorly.

Alfonso would have to play third in this situation unless you want to play Durham in the outfield, Alfonso at second, and Feliz at third. I have heard rumors that Ramon Martinez does not want to come back to the Giants this year. I have no idea if the Giants want to sign Martinez.

Hopefully Cruz Jr., Fick, or another good bat would fill this spot.

Grissom's stats atting against a right handed pitcher puts him at a distinct disadvantage compared to facing a left handed pitcher. I think the Giants need to platoon center field. I hope they did not promise Grissom that he would play every day. That would be a big mistake. Considering that he is a good hitter against leftes I would bat Grissom in the six hole ahead of Snow/Minor. Benard would bat in the eight hole when he plays simply because I like having a decent hitter with some speed in that spot and I would not want Benard batting sixth.

I really do not care who plays at first base because I assume they will both do bad. It would be nice to see J.T. raise his batting numbers a little bit so he could play every day and help out with his defense. He definitely earned some of his salary in the playoffs last year.

Benito's numbers will go down this year, with or without steroids. I do not want him batting fifth anymore. Also look for Torrealba to play more this season.

There are my lineups. I am sure some people will disagree with some personnel and batting order issues, so post if you think you have a better lineup.

[sweaver]

The Giants now have a rotation of Schmidt, Hernandez, Reuter and Moss, plus whichever young pitcher Alou picks to go in there, Ainsworth or Fultz. That's not bad. In fact, the Giants, if they pick up an OF such as Fick or Cruz, may have a better team on paper than they did last year.

[Fuzzy Bear]

Originally posted by sweaver
In fact, the Giants, if they pick up an OF such as Fick or Cruz, may have a better team on paper than they did last year.

I think the Giants would do well to acquire Fick. He's cheap, with a big upside, IMO. He needs to get away from that vast Comerica Park (the anti-Coors Field) and get away from an organization that seems too lost and confused to develop a young player.

[lonelybrewerfan]

I would much rather have Cruz, he can play all the OF positions, and I think he is the type of player they are looking for with their new look. He's fast and versitile like Durham and Alfonso.
I also think he would offer better protection to Bonds, after all he did hit behind Griffey in Seattle so I think he would have a good feel for his role on that team.

[Gosfgiants]

Originally posted by sweaver
The Giants now have a rotation of Schmidt, Hernandez, Reuter and Moss, plus whichever young pitcher Alou picks to go in there, Ainsworth or Fultz. That's not bad. In fact, the Giants, if they pick up an OF such as Fick or Cruz, may have a better team on paper than they did last year.

Ryan Jensen was the 5th starter last year, and I don't see why he wouldn't be again this. In order to get one of the young arms up to the bigs Sabaen should move Livian Hernandez. Aaron Fultz is a reliever and was non-tendered. I for one will not miss him. He was a left-handed specialist who couldn't get lefties out.

[sweaver]

That's what I get for not looking at the stats first. I have to think Livan is being offered around for an OF, but Jose Jr. would be a good way for the Giants to go, he's a talent. Maybe they could move Livan for another OF, and get Grissom out of the picture entirely.

[gyb13]

they seem to be done dealing for now... trading Livan may become even harder after the latest incident... what do they do about their OF? cruz is still out there...

[Golden Bear]

They're stuck with Livan, unless they just flat out cut him (which wouldn't be crazy; in other, less laid-back cities, the fans would force it -- Buckner, Wild Thing). He's getting way too much money, he's a major head case, and, as we all saw, when he's bad, he's really really really bad.

(Still beyond me why Dusty let him go out for the 3rd inning in Game 7. Misplaced loyalty is the only thing that makes sense -- everyone in America knew he was throwing meatballs.)

[sweaver]

While the golf club incident plays out, Sabean may get the chance to release Livan, and perhaps even to void his contract or at least settle for a fraction of the remainder.

The Giants may think their outfield is set with Bonds, Durham, and Grissom. Apparently they promised Grissom he would play regularly. I personally would want another guy, and Cruz would be a reasonable choice.

[gyb13]

all our speculating came through, as cruz joined the giants...

durham
aurilia
alfonzo
bonds
santiago
cruz
snow/minor
grissom/benard/feliz

the top of that order can produce in front of bonds and a rebound from cruz might make this lineup better than last season's

[lonelybrewerfan]

i think this is a good pickup, gives the G-men another bat and some team speed. he should improve his patience by being in a lineup with patient hitters like durham, alfonso and bonds.

i think the giants are the NL west favorites.

[gyb13]

plus, as someone else stated, it discourages them from starting Neifi Perez at 2B

[sweaver]

I assume this means Durham plays second, while Alfonzo plays third, and Neifi hits the bench (as it should be). It's still not a powerful back half of the lineup, but it is better now, especially if Snow or Minor can put up decent numbers at 1B.

[qtlaw]

If Cruz can play to 2001 and not 2002, maybe just maybe, the Giants can repeat.

[LisaG]

I also hope cruz plays 2001 ball. maybe barry will teach him plate discipline. why exactly neifi perez is on any major league roster is a mystery to me.

[sweaver]

The Giants have undergone a major overhaul, but the most important piece remains in place. Barry Bonds returns, and there stands the Giants hopes for 2003.

Excepting Rich Aurilla, most other regulars will be different this year. While much of the pitching staff also returns, there are some rookies likely to be worked in to fill out the back of the rotation. It is hoped new manager Felipe Alou will show more affinity for breaking in youngsters than former manager Dusty Baker did, although it is not expected the immediate results will be better.

Offense from 1B is important, whether it is J.T. Snow or Damon Minor providing it. New team members Edgardo Alfonzo and Ray Durham are expected to provide more baserunners, making it harder or more costly to pitch around Bonds.

I predict the Giants will win 90-95 games this year.