Sniper caught?

[VNV Nation]

There are reports trickling in that smell like the sniper has been caught.

Anyone else hear word of this?

My guess is it's an al Qaida.

[Max Power]

Heard nothing on this during the 2 hour AM drive to work today.

What's your source?

[VNV Nation]

Got an e-mail about it, someone said they heard it on CNN.

From CNN.com:

Amid a massive manhunt for the D.C.-area sniper, police in the Richmond, Virginia, area have taken a man into custody after surrounding a white minivan parked near a phone booth. It is still unclear if the incident is related to the sniper attacks.

[Max Power]

Sounds like a scene from the movie Something About Mary - - - I'll wait until there's more before I get excited.

[moose]

Originally posted by VNV Nation
There are reports trickling in that smell like the sniper has been caught.

Anyone else hear word of this?

My guess is it's an al Qaida. i doubt it.

but even if he isn't, the FBI will tell us that he "might be," and declare him an "enemy combatant" and throw him on a warship for several years without even bringing charges against him.

[VNV Nation]

Originally posted by moose
i doubt it.

but even if he isn't, the FBI will tell us that he "might be," and declare him an "enemy combatant" and throw him on a warship for several years without even bringing charges against him.

let's hope so

[Duque]

Funny thing is, I've been amazed about how reluctant people are to even suggest there might be a terrorism linkage here. Remember that Egyptian guy who went and shot up an El Al desk at LAX last year? The first reports were "we have no reason to suspect terrorism."

If I were a terrorist, this would be the perfect weapon - the amount of people affected is totally disproportionate to the actual damage inflicted. Millions of people are afraid to go out and live their normal lives due to 10 or 11 shootings.

[soxfan121]

Originally posted by Duque
Funny thing is, I've been amazed about how reluctant people are to even suggest there might be a terrorism linkage here. Remember that Egyptian guy who went and shot up an El Al desk at LAX last year? The first reports were "we have no reason to suspect terrorism."

If I were a terrorist, this would be the perfect weapon - the amount of people affected is totally disproportionate to the actual damage inflicted. Millions of people are afraid to go out and live their normal lives due to 10 or 11 shootings.

Use of the word 'terrorism' scares people. By not labeling the sniper a 'terrorist' the authorities lower the chance that the on-going situation sparks an all-out panic. Certainly, before 9-11 the sniper would have been a 'terrorist', with all the accompanying hyberbole.

Nowadays, it's not a duck until it's impossible to deny it is a duck.

[calexpat]

Originally posted by VNV Nation
let's hope so

yeah, i agree. security's more important than freedom.

[moose]

Originally posted by calexpat
yeah, i agree. security's more important than freedom. alright, becker* -- that's a discussion for another day :D

anyway, it sounds like they had a sting op on this guy, asking him to call in.


*See 2002 U.S. App. LEXIS 21032

[sweaver]

Originally posted by calexpat
yeah, i agree. security's more important than freedom. I disagree, but that's a different discussion. I seriously doubt this guy is Al Qaida, any more than Tim McVeigh was. That's my take, a McVeigh-type lunatic. Or maybe more Ted Kaczinski.

[VNV Nation]

North Jersey Media Group (Bergen Record+Passaic Herald) v. Ashcroft on post 9/11 deportation hearings. Supreme Court will be hearing the case.

[pathogan]

Originally posted by sweaver
I disagree, but that's a different discussion. I seriously doubt this guy is Al Qaida, any more than Tim McVeigh was. That's my take, a McVeigh-type lunatic. Or maybe more Ted Kaczinski.


either way, i hope that they,1] have actually caught the right peopleand 2] people can get back to a semblance of normalcy in the Dc/Va. area

[VNV Nation]

Originally posted by Duque
Funny thing is, I've been amazed about how reluctant people are to even suggest there might be a terrorism linkage here. Remember that Egyptian guy who went and shot up an El Al desk at LAX last year? The first reports were "we have no reason to suspect terrorism."

If I were a terrorist, this would be the perfect weapon - the amount of people affected is totally disproportionate to the actual damage inflicted. Millions of people are afraid to go out and live their normal lives due to 10 or 11 shootings.

Just like we didn't press the point of the EgyptAir crash as obviously being a case of pilot suicide ("I've made my peace with God.")

Diplomatically, we need the support of so-called moderate Muslim states. Media types like to think that they're experts on terrorism and say things like "it's not terrorists because they always take credit for what they do"; ignoring the fact that Hamas and al Qaida have distinctly different agendas as well as ignoring numerous other incidents which were clearly Muslim terroristic acts committed against Westerners (Bali, attacks on synagogues).

[CpUltravox]

CNN is reporting that there's no connection between the people they seized today and the sniper attacks.

[calexpat]

Originally posted by sweaver
I disagree, but that's a different discussion. I seriously doubt this guy is Al Qaida, any more than Tim McVeigh was. That's my take, a McVeigh-type lunatic. Or maybe more Ted Kaczinski.

I was actually being sarcastic. But you're right that's a different discussion. Too bad if these guys turn out to be a false trail.

[VNV Nation]

Whatever the identity of the sniper, you can be sure that al Qaida is taking notes.

Sixteen people were killed in a bombing in Israel today. If that became a common occurrence here, it would bring this country to its knees.

[moose]

Originally posted by VNV Nation
North Jersey Media Group (Bergen Record+Passaic Herald) v. Ashcroft on post 9/11 deportation hearings. Supreme Court will be hearing the case. doubt the supremes will hear it, but this was the case i cited to calex.

in any event, now cnn.com is reporting the two dudes have no sniper link...

[VNV Nation]

i know someone who is supposed to testify, I'll let you know.

on a side note...do you know of a dummies' guide to Lexis-Nexis. i haven't used it in a long time.

[Ytown Tribe fan]

It's pretty obvious what happened today. The sniper left a note at the Ponderosa tellng the police that he might contact them at that pay phone. Some poor slob drives up there in a white van to call his boss or somebody and the cops swoop down like Batman and Robin and haul him and his van away.

I bet the real sniper was watching the whole thing and laughing his a$$ off.

This is police work?

[bill wisnosky]

A really bad guy.........not apprehended yet.......the thousands of drive-by shootings happening really dwarfs this guy......

[spitball]

Originally posted by Ytown Tribe fan
It's pretty obvious what happened today. The sniper left a note at the Ponderosa tellng the police that he might contact them at that pay phone. Some poor slob drives up there in a white van to call his boss or somebody and the cops swoop down like Batman and Robin and haul him and his van away.

I bet the real sniper was watching the whole thing and laughing his a$$ off.

This is police work?
Yeah. These are the same group trying to solve the Chandra Levy case.

[pathogan]

...on the other hand, they had to so something,no? It is a tough deal to police this type of crime...

[gyb13]

I have a source (ok, my friend who works in defense has a source) who works for the intelligence service of a foreign country (which one, my friend could not say). This source says that info given to the US intelligence by his country proves that the sniper shootings are a terrorist attack (and not just random looney psycho mad-at-world hunter dude from west virginia....so you're off the hook, sweav ;)). Whether this is a domestic terrorist attack (white supremacy?) or foreign (al-qaeda or other anti-us groups) was not mentioned, but since this guy works for a foreign secret service, i'd suspect the latter...

[Duque]

Originally posted by VNV Nation

Diplomatically, we need the support of so-called moderate Muslim states. Media types like to think that they're experts on terrorism and say things like "it's not terrorists because they always take credit for what they do"; ignoring the fact that Hamas and al Qaida have distinctly different agendas as well as ignoring numerous other incidents which were clearly Muslim terroristic acts committed against Westerners (Bali, attacks on synagogues).

Yeah - I was having a discussion with a friend of mine who was saying that this guy couldn't be a terrorist, because he didn't have a political agenda. Of course, he got this opinion from a panel of 'experts' on Larry King. Modern, widespread terrorist networks are not really interesting in making a point - they already have enough recognition and usually plenty of private financing. They are more concerned about inflicting the greatest damage on their enemies.

[Duque]

Forget where I read it, but there was some snippet about Senators and Congressmen being told to avoid golfing - because they had info about an al Qaeda plot to target important officials at golf courses - which of course provide plenty of cover.

Watch out moose!

[VNV Nation]

In fairness to the law enforcement officials involved in this case, a military-trained sniper (and let's have no doubt that is what we're dealing with here, this isn't some wacky hunter) is a devastating force in war and difficult even for armed forces to deal with. Given the nature of these attacks -- totally random, pattern-changing -- and the wide area he has covered, it's impossible to predict where this guy is going to strike next. His ability to evade detection and slip through road blocks suggests, again, someone well versed in guerrilla tactics.

[sweaver]

Originally posted by gyb13
I(and not just random looney psycho mad-at-world hunter dude from west virginia....so you're off the hook, sweav ;)). Just let me lock n' load, you dern ferr'ner you.

Truth be told, I've never fired a gun in my life, even a BB gun.

[moose]

Originally posted by Duque
Forget where I read it, but there was some snippet about Senators and Congressmen being told to avoid golfing - because they had info about an al Qaeda plot to target important officials at golf courses - which of course provide plenty of cover.

Watch out moose!
i italicized a word in your quote, to explain why i'm not that worried :D

[TGwynn19]

Originally posted by moose
i italicized a word in your quote, to explain why i'm not that worried :D

and for the same reason, I am very worried!;)

[moose]

Originally posted by VNV Nation
In fairness to the law enforcement officials involved in this case, a military-trained sniper (and let's have no doubt that is what we're dealing with here, this isn't some wacky hunter) is a devastating force in war and difficult even for armed forces to deal with. Given the nature of these attacks -- totally random, pattern-changing -- and the wide area he has covered, it's impossible to predict where this guy is going to strike next. His ability to evade detection and slip through road blocks suggests, again, someone well versed in guerrilla tactics.
i agree with your assessment of this dude, and i think that such an assessment points to someone domestic. For someone this well-trained to wander into the US to carry out an attack like this, it would be (a) a foreign gov't operative, or (b) a terrorist sent in.

(a) is silly - why would a foreign gov't send in ONE GUY?
(b) is more likely, but again, why bother with one dude?

[VNV Nation]

Actually, it's probably two guys and, why not?

The terror quotient for this guy is unbelievably high -- 1 guy + 12 shootings = 5 million terrorized people. Pretty good bang for the buck.

And, for all we know, it could be more than one guy doing these shootings, or there could be other cells ready to unleash snipers all across the country.

We do know that al Qaida trained snipers; they are infinitely patient; and they often carry out missions just to gauge the level of response/tactics.

The common theory of the domestic sniper is some Aryan/white supremacist militia guy, but that makes even less sense.

[moose]

i think al qaida isn't as interested in terrorizing as killing.

[Max Power]

A few days ago, a FOX news outlet had a woman reporter, who had never fired a gun before in her life, go to a range with an automatic rifle that had a state of the art sight on it. She fired three or so shots at a target at a good distance. She registered a kill shot just about every time.

Assuming the news story was legit - - I did see her firing the gun - - but, have no idea if her being a novice was true? - - - if it's that easy with today's technology and slick weaponary, why can't this sniper just be another wack job like the Son of Sam?

Does it have to be a terrorist?

[Duque]

Originally posted by Max Power
A few days ago, a FOX news outlet had a woman reporter, who had never fired a gun before in her life, go to a range with an automatic rifle that had a state of the art sight on it. She fired three or so shots at a target at a good distance. She registered a kill shot just about every time.

Assuming the news story was legit - - I did see her firing the gun - - but, have no idea if her being a novice was true? - - - if it's that easy with today's technology and slick weaponary, why can't this sniper just be another wack job like the Son of Sam?

Does it have to be a terrorist?

It is much more difficult than that, when you factor in movement, wind, distance, etc. Yeah, after a while, you can hit a stationary target. Given that the guy only used one shot, he seems to be pretty confident in his abilities.

[VNV Nation]

I don't know that it's a terrorist, of course. It's just my guess.

Seems to me that there's a widescale effort, maybe effort is too strong a word...a collective hope that this is just a random looney, plus the natural instinct of law enforcement officials not to spread general panic.

There's been a gun expert quoted as saying it's probably not a sniper, because a trained sniper wouldn't use a .223 caliber. This was followed by a statement, unattributed, that the sniper is believed to have made a shot from 150 yards. Followed by another statement that .223 calibers are generally only accurate within 300 yards.

Wait, if you're discounted most eyewitness accounts due to inconsistencies, how the hell do you know how far the shots were from?

One attribute of .223 caliber bullets that isn't mentioned is that they can be fired from many different types of guns, making it perhaps the most difficult to track.

12 shots = 12 hits = 9 dead = 12 clean getaways....that's a pretty exceptional record.

[moose]

Originally posted by VNV Nation
Wait, if you're discounted most eyewitness accounts due to inconsistencies, how the hell do you know how far the shots were from? i think they've managed to narrow down the gun choice.

if so, they'd know how fast the bullet came out. they also probably have data on tissue penetration of a .223 bullet. from there it's just plug and chug.

duh!

[VNV Nation]

Originally posted by moose
i think they've managed to narrow down the gun choice.



the closest thing to a description of the gun I've heard is "one of a family of 30 guns that can fire .223 caliber bullets."

[moose]

Originally posted by VNV Nation
the closest thing to a description of the gun I've heard is "one of a family of 30 guns that can fire .223 caliber bullets." im just regurgitating what i read on cnn.com last week....

[Ytown Tribe fan]

I bet that lady at the firing range didn't fire at a living human.

To me, it makes no difference why this person or persons are killing people -- all that matters is that he or they are.
If it's out of some whack-Muslim ideology or some anti-whatever insanity, all that matters is that a person is firing a rifle at people, one at a time, and trying his best to kill them.

Forums are full of experts on rifles, marksmanship, conspiracy theories, etc., but I doubt that anyone in these forums has ever murdered anyone. It's a different kind of animal we're dealing with, and the police have little chance of catching the person by tryng to reason with him.

[poorme]

an example of american ingenuity: one deranged psychopath outwitting 8 municipal police departments, 2 state police departments, the FBI, the Secret Service, and the Department of Defense.

[TGwynn19]

Originally posted by Max Power
if it's that easy with today's technology and slick weaponary, why can't this sniper just be another wack job like the Son of Sam?

Does it have to be a terrorist?

FWIW,

My boss has a Ruger mini-14. That is a semi-auto .223 rifle. He has a $35 scope on it. We have hit targets the size of dimes from 100 yards while standing. If anyone reading this would take this exact weapon and place it on a rest, you could be extremely accurate from 100-150 yards as well. So to me, the accuracy/distance does not make me feel this person has special training.

[Skip]

Originally posted by poorme
an example of american ingenuity: one deranged psychopath outwitting 8 municipal police departments, 2 state police departments, the FBI, the Secret Service, and the Department of Defense. That's baiting in the extreme. I could do it. You could do it. A random person of reasonable intelligence in a highly populated area could do this anytime. Its suprising (or maybe a testament to our culture or to our cops) that it doesnt happen more often. Your post, poorme, serves no purpose but to obfuscate - regardless of the actual quality of the police work on this case.

[spitball]

Originally posted by poorme
an example of american ingenuity: one deranged psychopath outwitting 8 municipal police departments, 2 state police departments, the FBI, the Secret Service, and the Department of Defense.
Nail on the head poorme.

[Max Power]

What's this I hear now that there's a note saying "Pay Me To Stop"?

[TGwynn19]

Originally posted by Max Power
What's this I hear now that there's a note saying "Pay Me To Stop"?

If this is true...he will be caught. If he were to go on and keep killing he could probably do it as long as he wanted. But if he wants to pick up cash or have it wired to an account somewhere, he will get nailed.

[moose]

it just doesn't seem like this dude's in it for the green....

[Duque]

Reminds me of the original Dirty Harry.

[Duque]

Okay, now the shooter has apparently left a message saying "Your children are not safe anywhere at any time."

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&ncid=514&e=1&cid=514&u=/ap/20021023/ap_on_re_us/sniper_shootings

[Ytown Tribe fan]

One thing that the police must know by now, but won't state publicly: the sex, age, race and national origin of the sniper. That almost confirms the radical Islam connection -- ALMOST, I would say.

If the sniper is an American male, the police would probably say so, if only to allay fears somewhat ("Thank God, he's one of OUR loonies on the loose!). This happened right after McVeigh was caught.

If the sniper is foreign (could be European or Middle-eastern), we would see the same Detroit-type violence we first saw after the OK City bombing; this happened right BEFORE McVeigh was caught.

Since the sniper obviously knows who he is, it wouldn't hurt the investigation to let the public know the sex, age, race, and national origin of who we're dealing with; in fact, it would only help, UNLESS it was a Middle-eastern male.

No one wants stores and busniesses burned and store-owner's girls killed, as happened in Detroit. Therefore, the sniper is almost certainly a Middle-eastern male.

[moose]

anyone who reads the ny times in print got a great laugh today:

the far right column (the lead story) was about the sniper. then, once you turned the folded paper over to read the bottom half of the first page, you get a picture of charlton heston holding a rifle over his head, yelling.

classic - you couldn't make that up.

[gyb13]

Originally posted by Ytown Tribe fan
One thing that the police must know by now, but won't state publicly: the sex, age, race and national origin of the sniper. That almost confirms the radical Islam connection -- ALMOST, I would say.

If the sniper is an American male, the police would probably say so, if only to allay fears somewhat ("Thank God, he's one of OUR loonies on the loose!). This happened right after McVeigh was caught.

If the sniper is foreign (could be European or Middle-eastern), we would see the same Detroit-type violence we first saw after the OK City bombing; this happened right BEFORE McVeigh was caught.

Since the sniper obviously knows who he is, it wouldn't hurt the investigation to let the public know the sex, age, race, and national origin of who we're dealing with; in fact, it would only help, UNLESS it was a Middle-eastern male.

No one wants stores and busniesses burned and store-owner's girls killed, as happened in Detroit. Therefore, the sniper is almost certainly a Middle-eastern male.
huh??? :confuse2: :confuse:

[Ytown Tribe fan]

gyb -- I'm saying if the police were called by the sniper, they know just about everything about him because of the forensic linguists they have on hand. These guys can tell which part of Connecticut you're from (if you're from Connecticut) based on just a short conversation. And if he's an American male, they would probably tell everyone, but if he's from the Middle East, they probably wouldn't, to avoid the troubles that occurred right after the McVeigh bombing when everyone wrongly assumed it must be a Middle-eastern terrorist.

...

Now, there's some "professional journalist" named David Enrich who writes for States News Service who has his own theory: it's baseball related. He refers to the fact that the shootings have all occurred on days with playoff or WS games, beginning October 1st, and that it might be the work of a disgruntled baseball fan.

Now, when I read crap like this, from some journalist trying to be cutesy about the deaths of a dozen people, I pride myself on NOT being a journalist. My own dumb opinions have very little effect on anyone reading these forums, I'm sure. But a guy who is read by millions should be more responsible.

This guy even cites the movie "Mean Streak", about a serial killer obsessed with DiMaggio's streak who starts killing people when a modern player threatens the record.

Bringing baseball into this sniper business is reprehensible and disgusting.

[gyb13]

Originally posted by Ytown Tribe fan
gyb -- I'm saying if the police were called by the sniper, they know just about everything about him because of the forensic linguists they have on hand. These guys can tell which part of Connecticut you're from (if you're from Connecticut) based on just a short conversation. And if he's an American male, they would probably tell everyone, but if he's from the Middle East, they probably wouldn't, to avoid the troubles that occurred right after the McVeigh bombing when everyone wrongly assumed it must be a Middle-eastern terrorist.
sure, but how do you know the caller is the sniper? it could be someone related to/hired by the sniper...it could be someone looking to pull a prank or grab attention...it could be another type of decoy...
but on your previous post, I don't understand the (loose) logic at all

[pathogan]

Originally posted by Ytown Tribe fan
One thing that the police must know by now, but won't state publicly: the sex, age, race and national origin of the sniper. That almost confirms the radical Islam connection -- ALMOST, I would say.

If the sniper is an American male, the police would probably say so, if only to allay fears somewhat ("Thank God, he's one of OUR loonies on the loose!). This happened right after McVeigh was caught.

If the sniper is foreign (could be European or Middle-eastern), we would see the same Detroit-type violence we first saw after the OK City bombing; this happened right BEFORE McVeigh was caught.

Since the sniper obviously knows who he is, it wouldn't hurt the investigation to let the public know the sex, age, race, and national origin of who we're dealing with; in fact, it would only help, UNLESS it was a Middle-eastern male.

No one wants stores and busniesses burned and store-owner's girls killed, as happened in Detroit. Therefore, the sniper is almost certainly a Middle-eastern male.

...I don't follow that as logical.at all

[satchel]

Originally posted by Ytown Tribe fan
I'm saying if the police were called by the sniper, they know just about everything about him because of the forensic linguists they have on hand.

The caller used some device to alter his voice (I don't know if it was an electronic device or just something to muffle the sound). Law enforcement couldn't even understand the whole message, much less apply forensic linguistics to it.

Folks, I know it's sexy to attribute every bad thing in the world to Al Qaeda and terrorism, but hasn't history shown us that we Americans are more than capable of growing our own homicidal loonies, thank you very much?

This sniper's tactics, to me, say "nice-guy-keeps-to-himself-never-knew-he-had-it-in-him" old fashioned wacked out serial killer, much much more than they say millennial extremist. There's no history of terrorists operating like this - but there's a long, grand tradition of rifle-owning loners gone postal.

To borrow a medical school metaphor, when you hear hoofbeats, try to think horses, not zebras.

[Duque]

Actually, I think there's a pretty good chance it's not some random loony. There are no patterns to the attacks - if they were all young women, or black, or lawyers, or whatever. They seem to be done with a distinct knowledge of the fear they are causing.

They speculated the sniper was operating in a limited radius - his next target is over 90 miles away. They were speculating he only acts on weekdays - his next one is on a weekend.

Interesting enough, Interpol has provided the authorities with info on a French army deserter with a record as a marksman, who disappeared in North America.

[gyb13]

Originally posted by satchel
Law enforcement couldn't even understand the whole message i think that was obvious a bs excuse for them to try to get the guy to call back, whether to trace him, find more about him, or anything else...he's just toying with them

[moose]

it's ridiculous how far cnn is going to keep this story active 24 hours a day.

there's like 4 concrete facts about this case out there. all the rest of the things they report are "reported" issues that are shot down the next day at the news conference.

[VNV Nation]

obviously big news is breaking and probably much more will be known by time you all read this...

A federal warrant has been issued for the arrest of John Allen Williams or John Alan Williams a.k.a. Muhammad Williams or John Muhammad, a 41-year-old black male, and John Lee Malvo, 17, Jamaican native, believed to be Williams' stepson.

Williams is reportedly a veteran of the Gulf War.

Evidence, believed to be ballistic evidence, was removed following a consensual search of a house in Tacoma, Wash., near Fort Lewis, where Williams was once stationed.

Search warrants were being issued at other sites across the country, including Marion, Ala.

CNN reported a source said that Williams and Alvo were not suspects, but when asked if they were considered armed and dangerous, the source reportedly said "That's an understatement."

A Chevy Caprice with New Jersey plates was being sought. It's believed that Williams has a girlfriend in Camden.

Other details shaky.

Some details I've cobbled together from various news sources:

NY Times reports that Williams, a black man, is being investigated for ties to "skinhead militia" groups.

Apparently, there is interest in a shooting range/training ground of some sort in Marion, Ala., called "Ground Zero."

A former co-worker of mine tells me that this place is reportedly owned by white supremacists and Islamic radicals train there.

Found a mention of this place on the Web, from July:

Islamic extremists have been training for jihad at a camp in Alabama:


An investigation by Britain's Scotland Yard led to the discovery of the camp in Marion, Ala. The facility is called "Ground Zero USA."

...

It is not known how many holy war recruits came through the camp or when. But the FBI is now investigating a number of suspected training camps around the country.

"We know of a number of cases where Islamic terrorists came and trained in this country in the early 1990s. It is likely that this scale of training is still continuing," Gunaratna [author of Inside Al Qaeda] said.
And the freakazoids are openly sneering at our weakness.

The most radical and belligerent of London's Islamic clerics, Abu Hamza, told ABCNEWS in a phone call that America's laws make such paramilitary training easy, "like a picnic."

[VNV Nation]

My thoughts --

Mark Furhman summed it up perfectly - Williams is obviously a suspect.

My belief has been all along that this is an al Qaida sniper and I'll stick with it until proven otherwise.

Williams' connection to skinhead groups is bizarre but if he's an Islamist then it makes more sense. The KKK and al Qaida would, ironically, be able to find common goals (general anarchy, terror, destruction of American infrastructure and undermining the government).

Chief Moose's (you know Forrester Whitaker will play him in the movie) strange message that the sniper apparently wanted to hear him say:

'We have caught the sniper like a duck in a noose.'

My immediate thought was that this was a message from the sniper to comrades.

[moose]

good stuff vnv.

by the way, there are lots of jihad camps in the us/canada.

--
Originally posted by VNV Nation
Chief Moose's

no relation :D

[pathogan]

A former co-worker of mine tells me that this place is reportedly owned by white supremacists and Islamic radicals train there.


man, now that is a weird weird weird couple....Hopefully, they have caught this mad bugger...

[OaktownTribeFan]

Originally posted by VNV Nation
Williams' connection to skinhead groups is bizarre but if he's an Islamist then it makes more sense.

VNV, where are you hearing this? Not doubting it, but I've not heard this angle on it yet.

[Duque]

Both are extremely anti-American and reactionary.

It's similar to the connection between the extreme postmodernist socialist left and Islamic fundamentalism - at face value, they seem to be totally divergent, but are linked by a common anti-Americanism.

[spitball]

Both groups hate jews. These groups are teaming up eradicate the world of jews so they're willing to lower their "standards " a bit.
Funny that it's another Gulf War vet. Not funny hah hah.
Duque, I heard the same story re: the French Army deserter.

[qtlaw]

My hope is that this Williams figure turns out to be just another disenfranchised individual without any larger connections. Hopefully those in the Md and Va area can rest a little easier today.

[Duque]

While it appears Muhammad was of the same mindset as the Sept. 11th terrorists, there does not appear to be (as of yet) any direct linkage between them. But, lest we doubt the widespread reach of al Qaida, this from Stratfor.com :

Russian sources are claiming that more evidence is emerging to indicate that the current Moscow hostage-taking was organized and directed from outside Russia. Russian President Vladimir Putin, based on classified reports from Russian security and intelligence services, said that the incident was organized by the forces behind the Sept. 11 attacks and recent Bali bombing. Open source information suggests this as well. The FSB, Russia's state security service, said telephone dialogs have been intercepted between people inside the Moscow theater were the hostages are being held and people in Turkey, the United Arab Emirates and Chechnya. Stratfor sources in the FSB also say that a telephone call from Saudi Arabia to a mobile number belonging to one of the hostage-takers was intercepted. Further, two hostage-takers are calling themselves Abu Bakar and Abu Sayid, common Arab names. It has long been known that hundreds of Arab militants have participated in the Chechen war. It is also known that the much of the financing for Chechen Islamic militants comes from Saudi Arabia and other Persian Gulf countries. Washington recently acknowledged the link between al Qaeda and Chechen militants, something Moscow has claimed all along. In this particular case, it increasingly appears that a command center outside Russia exists that allows the hostage-takers to coordinate with other Islamists outside Moscow. Stratfor currently believes this hostage situation was planned at the international level by al Qaeda-affiliated forces that aim to cause a deep political and security crisis for Russia and for President Vladimir Putin in particular, especially since Russia has become an important U.S. ally in its global war on al Qaeda. In this context, the timing of the attack -- disrupting Bush and Putin's talk on Iraq and Islamist issues at APEC summit in Mexico -- does not appear coincidental but deliberate.

[VNV Nation]

Interesting how news develops --

Today the link between Williams/Muhammad and white supremacy groups has been dropped from most stories.
The Marion, Ala., thing has fallen off the radar, just like the note from a previous shooting site that read "Gihad in America" has been forgotten.

[spitball]

Originally posted by VNV Nation
Interesting how news develops --

Today the link between Williams/Muhammad and white supremacy groups has been dropped from most stories.
The Marion, Ala., thing has fallen off the radar, just like the note from a previous shooting site that read "Gihad in America" has been forgotten.
Thank god for investigative journalism..:rolleyes: :rolleyes:
I mean the government would'nt want to cover anything up would they?

[Duque]

Okay, I think this is a little much:

http://www.chiefmoose.com/index.shtml

[ChrisCary]

Can't wait to see pictures of him hanging at Yankee Stadium for Mike Mussina's first home start

[soxfan121]

Originally posted by Duque
Okay, I think this is a little much:

http://www.chiefmoose.com/index.shtml

:loud: It really was inevitable that someone would give Chief Moose the business.

And I agree with the suggestion that Forrest Whitaker would play a great Moose. (no, not you moose. the other Moose).

[Duque]

Because we all know Gilbert Gottfried will be playing NetShrine's moose in the film version.

[moose]

Originally posted by Duque
Because we all know Gilbert Gottfried will be playing NetShrine's moose in the film version. oof. now THAT'S an insult...

[gyb13]

Originally posted by Duque
Because we all know Gilbert Gottfried will be playing NetShrine's moose in the film version.
:loud:

now, they're trying to figure out jurisdictions - where are they more likely to get the death penalty...

[hmrsf]

This has been a good news week.

Yes the snipers have been caught. First, it took an alert motorist who took a risk and phoned it in. He refuses to take the reward money and wants it to go to the victims families. Now that is good karma.

2nd, law enforcement worked together and gathered an amazing amount of evidence. Good people unraveled this madness. Hats off to them. Maybe the average citizen should take a deep breathe and have more faith in guys in blue and men behind the shields.

3rd, many of the media had experts who knew jack. But many of the media knew a lot of things they did not report. Many people did their jobs and did them well. That is what it takes.

4th, it is now Justice systems hands. It is a complicated case. This has been handled well and I have faith that it will continue until the end.

[pathogan]

http://salon.com/news/feature/2002/10/25/sniper/index.html

[moose]

i hope they get fair trials.

[JamesI]

These guys could be facing the death penalty in 3 states. I wonder if whoever convicts first will then have to turn them over to other states to get tried again or will one death sentence be good enough?

[pwdennis]

Originally posted by JamesI
These guys could be facing the death penalty in 3 states. I wonder if whoever convicts first will then have to turn them over to other states to get tried again or will one death sentence be good enough?

One should be enough if they go ahead and carry it out (I'm not pro-death penalty but in this case I'd make an exception)

[soxfan121]

Originally posted by moose
i hope they get fair trials.

Not bloody likely.

[moose]

Originally posted by soxfan121
Not bloody likely. agreed.

actually, i suspect the trials will be fine -- it sounds like there's some pretty strong evidence, at least from what CNN tells us.

my hope is that if mohammed is truly mentally ill, he doesn't get executed.

[satchel]

Please consider this a gentle warning to everyone to tread lightly on the death penalty issue raised by the apparent capture of the sniper(s). This thread has been very civil and interesting, and, despite a variance of views, has managed to avoid the kind of political rancor that would result in its banishment to the SoCS. Perhaps I am merely projecting my own very strong feelings regarding the death penalty, but I anticipate that the thread's character will change dramatically if it goes down that road. May I recommend that if anyone wants to discuss the capital aspects of this case, that s/he open a thread on that subject in the SoCS?

Thanks, and you may now return to your regularly scheduled lighthearted frivolity.

[soxfan121]

Originally posted by satchel

Thanks, and you may now return to your regularly scheduled lighthearted frivolity.

There isn't a whole lot of "lightheaded frivolity" in this thread.

And if a thread discussing the death penalty may be more appropriate in SOCS, maybe a moderator should move it there - because the discussion naturally must move toward that aspect.

[VNV Nation]

I would have preferred that the dynamic duo had resisted arrest and gotten mowed down instead of having to go through the trial.

I can see Rage writing songs about this now.

[soxfan121]

Originally posted by VNV Nation
I would have preferred that the dynamic duo had resisted arrest and gotten mowed down instead of having to go through the trial.

I can see Rage writing songs about this now.

Life doesn't wrap itself up in 120 minutes (less commercials). We're talking mini-series here! ;)

And Rage broke up (did you miss the memo?)...so it won't be them doing the song. But you are right, some one will immortalize them in song and/or some other expression of 'art'.

[moose]

Originally posted by VNV Nation
I can see Rage writing songs about this now. as soxfan said, rage is no more. de la rocha's more likely to be committing the crimes than producing songs about them now.... :)