Overrated/Underrated?

[Duque]

Just read an article in Sports Illustrated on the most overrated and underrated players and events in sports. Among them were catchers (overrated - Carlton Fisk; underrated - Ted Simmons), baseball records (overrated - Cal Ripken's consecutive games streak; underrated - DiMaggio's 56-game hitting streak) and Hall of Fame pitcher (overrated - Nolan Ryan; underrated - Whitey Ford).

Thoughts? Any current players terrifically overrated or underrated?

[NetShrine]

Congrats on making "All-Star" Duque!
I saw that on-line too. Good idea for a thread. Thanks.

The Ripken thing, well, I always thought it was a bad label - to me, the record should not read
"consecutive games"
but, more so
"consecutive seasons without missing any games"
(or something like that).

Anyway, whether it's right or wrong, if you put a gun to my head, and asked me to name an overrated player in 2 seconds, "Joe Carter" comes out - - give me 10 seconds and I might say "Brooks Robinson."

Underrated? Hmmmm - - maybe Tris Speaker or Tim Raines?

[nyy26wc]

Most overrated player, who's in the majors at the moment--Garret Anderson

Most underrated--maybe Tim Salmon

Or, maybe even Barry Bonds. Most people don't appreciate not only how good he is, but how how high up he is among the greatest players ever.

[NetShrine]

TB VII has Nap Lajoie over Bonds - still can't figure that one out? :confuse2:

[nyy26wc]

That's based on a couple of factors--

1) they have a ridiculous fielding system that gave Lajoie a large amount of credit. Most people agree that Lajoie was a good fielder, but not at the level their formulas say he was.

2) the AL during it's first few years was considered a very weak league. The weaker the league, the easier it is to fatten up numbers.

[NetShrine]

Thanks Lee!

OK, now explain how Keith Hernandez is #100 whereas someone like Dale Murphy or Nolan Ryan can't make the top 100! :confuse2:

:loud:

[Duque]

Originally posted by NetShrine
OK, now explain how Keith Hernandez is #100 whereas someone like Dale Murphy or Nolan Ryan can't make the top 100! :confuse2:

:loud:

How many Seinfeld episodes did Murph or Ryan appear on? :p

I agree Tim Salmon's one of the more underrated players of the past decade. And I certainly agree on Garret Anderson's overrated-ness.

Here's a couple off the top of my head -

Managers: Overrated - Tony LaRussa; Underrated - Bruce Bochy

Pitchers: Overrated - Darren Dreifort, Aaron Sele, Mike Hampton; Underrated - Daryl Kile, Mike Mussina, Keith Foulke

Hitters: Overrated - Eric Karros, Tino Martinez, Neifi Perez
Underrated - Bernie Williams, Moises Alou, Edgar Martinez

[NetShrine]

Originally posted by Duque
Pitchers: Overrated - Darren Dreifort, Aaron Sele, Mike Hampton; Underrated - Daryl Kile, Mike Mussina, Keith Foulke

Hitters: Overrated - Eric Karros, Tino Martinez, Neifi Perez
Underrated - Bernie Williams, Moises Alou, Edgar Martinez

Danny Tartabull made Sienfeld - and Married with Children! Somehow, they left him off the list too. :)

Kile underrated? Bernie and Alou underrated? How?

Agreed on Edgar - - he's done some Musial type things. Then again, maybe Musial is underrated too.

[Duque]

Originally posted by NetShrine

Kile underrated? Bernie and Alou underrated? How?


For Kile, he's been one of the top 5 pitchers in the NL this season, had an ERA under 3.00 for much of the year, and if the Cardinals were leading their division, should probably be mentioned as a Cy Young candidate.

Bernie's actually one of those cases where he's both underrated and overrated. He's an underrated offensive player (although that's changing now that Griffey's in the NL), but an overrated defensive one.

Alou always seems to get overlooked - he almost missed out on the All-Star game this year.

Now that I think about it, Mike Cameron's pretty underrated too.

[mainsr]

The August 27 issue of Sports Illustrated contained SI's picks for the most overrated and underrated in several sports categories. Here are the baseball ones. I'll just present 'em; my comments will follow.

BASEBALL PLAYER: Overrated - Mark McGwire. Underrated - Stan Musial.

HOF PITCHER: Overrated - Nolan Ryan. Underrated - Whitey Ford.

BASEBALL RECORD: Overrated - Cal Ripken. Underrated - Joe DiMaggio.

BASEBALL FLAKE: Overrated - Mark Fidrych. Underrated - Mickey Rivers.

HOPELESS OBSESSION: Overrated - Red Sox. Underrated - Minnesota Vikings.

BASEBALL BLUNDER: Overrated - Bill Buckner. Underrated - Carlton Fisk. (I didn't know what they were talking about, either. It was Fisk's error in '75 Game 3, 5-5, bottom of the 10th, Armbrister collided with Fisk after a bunt, Fisk still had time to get Armbrister at first, but he threw the ball into right, allowing Morgan to end the game with an SF. Think about it - had the Sox won that game, the '75 Series would've ended with that incredible Game 6.)

METAPHOR FOR LIFE: Overrated - Baseball. Underrated - Football.

BASEBALL STAT: Overrated - Pitcher's wins. Underrated - OBP.

[NetShrine]

Originally posted by Duque
For Kile, he's been one of the top 5 pitchers in the NL this season, had an ERA under 3.00 for much of the year, and if the Cardinals were leading their division, should probably be mentioned as a Cy Young candidate.

Bernie's actually one of those cases where he's both underrated and overrated. He's an underrated offensive player (although that's changing now that Griffey's in the NL), but an overrated defensive one.

Alou always seems to get overlooked - he almost missed out on the All-Star game this year.

Now that I think about it, Mike Cameron's pretty underrated too.

Kile's had 4 good years out of 11. NG in my book.
Agreed, Bernie is overrated big time on D. On offense, he's had one 30 HR season and 4 100+ RBI seasons (out of 10). He's a terrible baserunner. I think he's a very good offensive player - but, not great (which most think he is).

Moises Alou - 34 years old - in the bigs for 9 years. Very stationary OF. Never played in more than 143 games in a season in any of his 6 seasons. Basically, only been a big hitter the last 3 seasons.

To me, they're all overrated. Now, Cameron, I'll give you - - I think the Ks scare people - - but, he gets some walks, has some pop, runs well, and plays a great CF.

[NetShrine]

Originally posted by mainsr
The August 27 issue of Sports Illustrated contained SI's picks for the most overrated and underrated in several sports categories. Here are the baseball ones. I'll just present 'em; my comments will follow.

Rob - we've been on this one. You paying attention? :loud: Still, love to hear your thoughts!

[Duque]

Originally posted by NetShrine


Kile's had 4 good years out of 11. NG in my book.
Agreed, Bernie is overrated big time on D. On offense, he's had one 30 HR season and 4 100+ RBI seasons (out of 10). He's a terrible baserunner. I think he's a very good offensive player - but, not great (which most think he is).

Moises Alou - 34 years old - in the bigs for 9 years. Very stationary OF. Never played in more than 143 games in a season in any of his 6 seasons. Basically, only been a big hitter the last 3 seasons.

To me, they're all overrated. Now, Cameron, I'll give you - - I think the Ks scare people - - but, he gets some walks, has some pop, runs well, and plays a great CF.

Uncle :D You win.

Those were just off the top of my head, and mainly had to do with this year, rather than their careers as a whole. I'll change Kile to Kevin Appier, Williams to Brian Giles, and Alou to Gary Sheffield (I know this might rile some people up :devil: )

But I still think Darren Dreifort is overrated.

[NetShrine]

Originally posted by Duque
Uncle :D You win.

Those were just off the top of my head, and mainly had to do with this year, rather than their careers as a whole. I'll change Kile to Kevin Appier, Williams to Brian Giles, and Alou to Gary Sheffield (I know this might rile some people up :devil: )

But I still think Darren Dreifort is overrated.

Didn't mean to come out guns a blazin' - sorry if I did.

Not sure if I agree with Appier - the others, I'll go with.

Speaking of Appier, I think Frank Tanana gets forgotten about too quick. 240 wins and 2,700+ Ks are something to be proud of..........not to forget the transition from power to finese.

[Duque]

No apology needed - criticism's always appreciated.

Thing about Appier - when he was in his prime, from about '90 to '95 or '96 or so, he was one of the top unheralded pitchers in the AL. His '93 season was Cy Young caliber. But playing in Kansas City and being the victim of poor run support didn't get him much attention.

He's actually rebounded fairly nicely for the Mets after a couple of off years, though no one's really paying any attention to the Mets anymore.

One last thing on Kile, though - I wonder how different his career would've ended up if he didn't decide to pitch in Colorado.

[NetShrine]

Hey, Kile took the money - as Hampton later did - they can't cry about it. :D

[Duque]

Those school systems must really be great in Colorado - do they have Stephen Hawking teaching High School Physics or something?

Another overrated/underrated that just occured to me:

Baseball Fan/Actor:

Overrated - Kevin Costner; Underrated - Tom Selleck

[NetShrine]

Over - Charlie Sheen
Under - Ron Howard

[Duque]

Sheen did actually have a decent windup in Major League, at least enough to be believable.

Here's a question - is Derek Jeter both overrated and underrated? Does having to play in the same group as A-Rod and Nomar overshadow his own offensive accomplishments?

[NetShrine]

Originally posted by Duque
Here's a question - is Derek Jeter both overrated and underrated? Does having to play in the same group as A-Rod and Nomar overshadow his own offensive accomplishments?

It's now been three years since Nomar played more than 140 games in a season. He's a great hitter - but, he's close to becoming one of those guys who you always say "If he could stay healthy" about. For that reason, I'll kick him out for now.

A-Rod v. Jeter with the stick is a mismatch - - A-Rod is more like Ruth and Jeter is more like Kaline - - not looking at numbers, just going with the 1st thing that jumps into my head.

Actually, even with the glove, A-Rod is doing better than Jeter.

But, that's A-Rod - and just about everyone gets blown away by him.

Let me just look at Jeter alone. I think he's way overrated in terms of defense. In fact, I have said this many times in other places, and I'll say it again, if the Yanks had another good player who could play SS, they should consider thinking about moving Jeter to 3B or 2B. Since NY does not have another everyday SS, Jeter can stay there for now - shortcomings ignored.

As a hitter, Jeter excels at getting on-base and scoring runs, and getting clutch hits. If that's what you say about him, then it's not overrated. If you say he sucks as a hitter, he's underrated. If you say he's a great slugging SS (which he is not) then he's overrated.

All this IMHO.

[BuzzBuzzard]

Originally posted by NetShrine
It's now been three years since Nomar played more than 140 games in a season. He's a great hitter - but, he's close to becoming one of those guys who you always say "If he could stay healthy" about. For that reason, I'll kick him out for now.
That is a little too convenient for me. 135 and 140 respectively in '99 and '00 with over 500 ABs in both seasons (not to mention batting titles both years)

[NetShrine]

If a guy misses 25 games a year, to me, that says he's missing one day per week - - that's a lot, for me, when it comes to "regulars."

I think an everyday player, sans catchers and players over the age of 35, should be good for 150+ games a year, IMHO. Otherwise, they're not reliable.

[BuzzBuzzard]

I can't help but feeling that if Nomar played for any team other than the RedSox (except maybe the Mets) you'd cut some slack here. Don't use the G played as a crutch for your feeling about the 'Sox in general.

[NetShrine]

Originally posted by BuzzBuzzard
I can't help but feeling that if Nomar played for any team other than the RedSox (except maybe the Mets) you'd cut some slack here. Don't use the G played as a crutch for your feeling about the 'Sox in general.

Huh? Give me some credit. I'm more objective than that.

[BuzzBuzzard]

Proof is in the pudding, my friend. You have colored yourself with that stripe.

[NetShrine]

What was the tip-off, my Ripken avatar or my webpage devoted to all the baseball players in history? ;)

[mainsr]

Originally posted by mainsr
The August 27 issue of Sports Illustrated contained SI's picks for the most overrated and underrated in several sports categories. Here are the baseball ones. I'll just present 'em; my comments will follow.

BASEBALL PLAYER: Overrated - Mark McGwire. Underrated - Stan Musial.

HOF PITCHER: Overrated - Nolan Ryan. Underrated - Whitey Ford.

BASEBALL RECORD: Overrated - Cal Ripken. Underrated - Joe DiMaggio.

BASEBALL FLAKE: Overrated - Mark Fidrych. Underrated - Mickey Rivers.

HOPELESS OBSESSION: Overrated - Red Sox. Underrated - Minnesota Vikings.

BASEBALL BLUNDER: Overrated - Bill Buckner. Underrated - Carlton Fisk. (I didn't know what they were talking about, either. It was Fisk's error in '75 Game 3, 5-5, bottom of the 10th, Armbrister collided with Fisk after a bunt, Fisk still had time to get Armbrister at first, but he threw the ball into right, allowing Morgan to end the game with an SF. Think about it - had the Sox won that game, the '75 Series would've ended with that incredible Game 6.)

METAPHOR FOR LIFE: Overrated - Baseball. Underrated - Football.

BASEBALL STAT: Overrated - Pitcher's wins. Underrated - OBP.

Hey, don't give me grief for not knowing this had already been posted. Silly me, thinking that something in a periodical was a "current event."

My takes - with no Kile -
Overrated/Underrated player - I disagree with McGwire. Heck, he had one of the best offensive seasons ever in 1998 and lost the MVP to a guy who clearly didn't. As for The Man, does anyone remember that Bill James rated him ahead of the Splinter all time? It seems that now the only greatest-LF argument is Williams vs. Bonds vs. possibly Henderson. But I'd pick Ichiro for current overrated (assuming he wins the MVP), Tinker/Evers/Chance all-time overrated. Judging how they did in the all-time all-star team voting, Honus Wagner, George Davis, and Lefty Grove would get my vote. Probably Davis, because he was arguably the third-best SS of all time (after Wagner and whats-his-name in Baltimore) and STILL nobody knows who he is.

Overrated HOF pitcher - They got it right with Ryan, but I'd pick Grove as underrated.

Overrated record - I'd go with Cy Young' 511 wins, or Hack Wilson's 191 RBIs.

Baseball blunder - Most underrated occurred during the Messersmith/McNally arbitration. Before he made his ruling, the arbitrator, Peter Seitz, told the owners that he thought the Reserve Clause was seriously flawed, and he gave them an opportunity to re-write it before he made his ruling. Bowie Kuhn & Company declined, so sure were they of the Reserve Clause's validity. Seitz made his ruling that the Reserve Clause was unenforceable. Had the owners not been so cocky, they might have avoided free agency altogether.

I think that anyone who uses a game as a metaphor for life should get their own (life, that is).

Overrated stat - W-L is good. So is BA. So is RBI. Hard to choose among those three. OBP is perfect as underrated.

[NetShrine]

Originally posted by mainsr
Baseball blunder - Most underrated occurred during the Messersmith/McNally arbitration. Before he made his ruling, the arbitrator, Peter Seitz, told the owners that he thought the Reserve Clause was seriously flawed, and he gave them an opportunity to re-write it before he made his ruling. Bowie Kuhn & Company declined, so sure were they of the Reserve Clause's validity. Seitz made his ruling that the Reserve Clause was unenforceable. Had the owners not been so cocky, they might have avoided free agency altogether.

Delayed maybe, avoided never.

[mainsr]

Maybe, maybe not. The antitrust exemption afforded baseball a huge advantage. Remember that every legal attempt to overturn the Reserve Clause lost, including Curt Flood's. I can't remember whether it was his case or somebody else's, but one case went all the way to the Supremes and the owners still won. That's what got the owners over-confident with Seitz.

[NetShrine]

Yeah, but, the owners were due to screw up eventually - - the Catfish case is an example - - he became a FA not for playing out his option, but, because Finely screwed him out of some life insurance - - - regardless of the how, once the players saw the $ he got on the open market, they would have fought for Free Agency some more.

[pjl7]

A few random additions-

Overrated- Batting stats from the 1990s; McGwire, Sosa and Bonds' home run seasons
Underrated- Batting stats from the 1960s; Maris' home runs in 1961

Overrated- Great starts by Phillies, Cubs, Twins and others Underrated- Same bunch of boring playoff teams...Yankees, Braves, Indians...blah, blah, blah

Overrated- The Big Red Machine
Underrated- The Swingin' A's

Overrated- SportsCenter
Underrated- This Week in Baseball

Overrated- Chris Berman
Underrated- Curt Gowdy

Overrated- Major League (the movie)
Underrated- Eight Men Out

Overrated- Billy Martin as Yankees Manager
Underrated- Billy Martin's other Managerial Jobs

Overrated- MLB All-Star Game
Underrated- College World Series

Overrated- Sacrifice Bunt
Underrated- Switch Hitting

Overrated- Middle Relief
Underrated- Infield Defense

Overrated- Ueberroth's TV Contract (the beginning of the end)
Underrated- Baseball on the Radio

Overrated- Bud Selig's Interest in the Game of Baseball
Underrated- The Owners' Stupidity

On Rob's note, I have to say that I really believe that they could have kept free agency off for at least a decade had they had half a brain. Of course, the biggest error of all was ignoring the simple economics of allowing the players to limit the labor supply and thereby drive up the price. They should have let them all be free agents...every year.

I am firmly convinced that a pretty good antitrust agrument could be made against the MLBPA. I won't prattle on with details unless asked for them but think about who is really in control of baseball's economic house.

[NetShrine]

Originally posted by pjl7
Of course, the biggest error of all was ignoring the simple economics of allowing the players to limit the labor supply and thereby drive up the price. They should have let them all be free agents...every year.

I am firmly convinced that a pretty good antitrust agrument could be made against the MLBPA. I won't prattle on with details unless asked for them but think about who is really in control of baseball's economic house.

Letting them all be Free Agents was Marvin Miller's worst fear - he knew what he was doing.

OK, you're being asked - so prattle. ;)

[pjl7]

Well...the ultimate goal of Antitrust laws is to protect the consumer from paying too much (wasting economic resources) for products or services because of unfair activities by business.

Section 1 of the Sherman Act prohibits parties from acting in concert to unreasonably restrain trade. To make this case, we need to prove two things. First, that the MLBPA restrains trade. Second, that this restraint is unreasonable.

In the case of MLBPA, we have to take a semi-Marxist view of labor and assume that in this case, ballplayers (and their ability to compete on the MLB level) is the "natural resource" that is being purchased my MLB teams and resold to the public. Because all players must (or at least have little choice about it) join MLBPA, the union effectively sets the price of labor and dictates what the product ends up costing the public.

Collective bargaining units are specifically exempt from federal antitrust statutes (which is why we've never seen this kind of suit from chicken packaging or automobile companies).

My novel theory is this- MLBPA is not a labor union, it is an industry organization made up of professional corporations. These aren't well developed, but three reasons come to mind:

1. Player compensation is obscene. The public policy that favors labor unions was based on people with little or no bargaining power being able to band together. MLB players are not nameless faceless people. The body of their work is well documented and in most cases they have the upper hand in bargaining with teams. Migrant farm workers and Derek Jeter have nothing in common yet the law is applied to them the same.

2. Players have agents who are able to look out for their individual needs. The primary issues impacting each indivdual player (compensation, contract term etc.) are determined by negotiations between teams and player agents. I know the CBA handles some things like minimum compensation and working rules, but those things exist in the real world for people like me who make a whole lot less than MLB players and who work 52 weeks per year. Even airline pilots (who make good money) do the bulk of their bargaining through ALPA, not through highly-paid agents working on their individual behalf.

3. MLB players have a multitude of income sources that flow directly from their job as a ballplayer. They can (and do) sell their names, faces, signatures, clothing, time and anything else they can find. Again, collective bargaining was given special status to protect people who had one source of income that neede to feed a family. These guys are essentially corporations with many lines of business. They are more like a trade group than a labor union.

The final issue here is whether the restraint of trade is unreasonable. I think that consumers in most of the nation's biggest cities being told that $100+ millions of tax dollars are needed for these businesses to stay afloat (and with no viable competition to provide the product in those markets) is unreasonable enough for me.

If the MLBPA were scrutinized in the same manner as the owners (and don't get me wrong, the owners are scumbags too) they would be hit with collusion charges of their own, and public mandates to raise taxes to pay ballplayers would slow down...of course, that train has probably already left the station.

[nyy26wc]

You have missed the primary reason why the player's "union" isn't a real union.

A top priority of any union is to preserve the jobs of the existing members. A sports union has no concern about a player once he's released.

If they acted like real unions, nobody could be released, nobody could become a free agent with no teams interested, without having the union put up a fight on that player's behalf.

[nyy26wc]

Originally posted by pjl7
In the case of MLBPA, we have to take a semi-Marxist view of labor and assume that in this case, ballplayers (and their ability to compete on the MLB level) is the "natural resource" that is being purchased my MLB teams and resold to the public. Because all players must (or at least have little choice about it) join MLBPA, the union effectively sets the price of labor and dictates what the product ends up costing the public.


The union does not set the price of labor. Every player acts independently of each other in setting their salaries.

Sure, there is some pressure from the union not to settle for a below market salary. But, as a former attorney, I can assure you what you are saying is an argument that would result in your case being thrown out of court.

[pjl7]

Lee (technical crap that the rest of you can ignore)-

I wouldn't plead the case that way (again, this is an academic exercise). You would certainly need to show more concrete evidence of collusion which I don't have. However, the first place I would look for that evidence would be by probing the conduct and the files of agents who handle multiple players...especially guys like Scott Boros who tend to try and "set the market". Again, that is a fact issue and I certainly wouldn't go into court with no evidence to support that allegation.

[NetShrine]

Is there anything alike/different between the SAG and the MLBPA? Same kinda deal, no? If so, why don't more people (the paying fans) dislike the SAG?

This has always been a pet peeve. Some blast A-Rod for making $25 million for 8-9 months work, hard work too. Yet, no one bitches when Chris Tucker makes $20 million for EIGHT WEEKS work filming RUSH HOUR TWO - and his work invloves sitting in a trailer for several hours a day.

[pjl7]

Actually Net, that's a parallel that I have thought about at some length. While I do shake my head at the massive amounts of money thrown at "stars" for acting (which I honestly believe most of us could do no worse than most of them) I see three huge differences between players' unions and SAG.

1. Body for body, there are more struggling stiffs who also wait tables in SAG than there are Al Pacinos.

2. I don't know of anyone with an emotional attachment to a movie. If they threaten not to make another Star Wars sequel, 99.9% of the public will not miss a beat. Picking up the Kansas City Royals and shipping them to DC would be a pretty major scar to a lot of people who have emotional investments.

3. The movie industry execs are still interested in increasing distribution of their product. MLB (owners and players) are trying to secure their fortunes by limiting distribution even where a city has millions of willing buyers.

When the time comes that a movie studio decides that it will only send its movies to theatres with box seats that cost $40 a piece, charge for parking and can handle sales of advertising in every square inch...the studio refuses to put the movies on video after they run...and tells the people that the necessary improvements to the theatre are not coming from the movie industry...SAG and Studio Execs will have sunk to the level of esteem that the MLB/MLBPA "brain trust" has.

[NetShrine]

Good points.

"Body for body, there are more struggling stiffs who also wait tables in SAG than there are Al Pacinos."

They say in the music industry, 3% of the "artists" out there make 97% of the money in the industry. You could probably say the same about actors.

There are many struggling baseball players - check the Indy league rosters - - but the split is probably closer to 20/80 in baseball than 3/97.

[pjl7]

True. But as stated, MLBPA isn't looking out for them.

[mainsr]

Some thoughts:

1. I got to the third page of this one, and I thought, "Uh-oh, who invited the lawyers?"

2. pjl ol' pal, the union DOES look out for players' jobs. Sort of. That's why they're so entrenched about keeping the DH - it goes, and Edgar Martinez does autograph shows. Also, there are limits on the number of times you can ship a player down to the minors, specific rules for releasing guys...although I honestly don't know whether those rules pre-date or post-date the unions.

3. I think the union had reasonably good roots. Its initial goals were establishment of a pension and limited freedom to work where you want. I think there was some health insurance component too (disability policy?) All the stuff that's followed - free agency, minimum salaries, arbitration - wasn't on Miller's original agenda.

4. While it's true that the union represents Barry Bonds and A-Rod, it's really for guys like Rich Reese and Tom Tchinda and the other guys who put in a few years but don't make enough to retire and have to start working for a living in their 30s. It still does that.

5. Net, I agree with pjl - if it weren't for the owner's arrogance and stupidity, they could've held off free agency for a long time. The Catfish Hunter case was an anomaly, just like Carlton Fisk. But then, these are the same geniuses who thought that arbitration would save them money.

[pjl7]

RM-

I do agree with you that in its infancy, MLBPA was necessary and that its aims were valuable. I do think that certain aspects of what it does are important. I am glad that Sonny Jackson and Tom Veryzer are getting some pension money.

However, they have taken things past the point of taking in a reasonable share of MLB profits. They have stedfastly opposed any idea that would make the economics of the game more palatable. Of course, the owners' unwillingness to share basic economic data with them is a big part of the problem.

To me, its the baseball establishment (ownership and players) against the fans in a game of chicken. Whether you blame owners or players as the egg (as opposed to the chicken) any group that back garbage like the charades pulled by J.D. Drew and Travis Lee is in no position to point any fingers.

[mainsr]

Boy, we're sure getting far afield from overrated/underrated...

BTW, in case anyone's wondering, pjl7 and I have been friends since....Pat, I think this is actually true...LBJ was in the White House.

(Note to GenX-ers: LBJ stands for Lyndon Baines Johnson. He used to be President. After Kennedy, the one who got killed in the Oliver Stone movie).

(Note to Net: The White House is a big building where the President lives.)

I'd take slight issue with one point: In a free market for player services, how can players be taking more than a "reasonable share" of profits? Other than the inflationary impact of arbitration and the negligible impact of the major league minimum, salaries aren't mandated, so owners cede whatever proportion of their profits to players that they choose. This contrasts to unions in, say, your state's government, where mandated salary levels make the "unreasonable share" argument stronger. The owners really need to present financials, reviewed by experts (Note to Bud: CPAs are experts. Guys like me, financial analysts, are experts. Busisness attorneys are experts. George Will is not an expert.) to the players. Look at the D-Backs' willingness to defer salary to help the club. I think individual players (but not the union) would be willing to make sacrifices to help the game, if they could trust the numbers.