Shut Out: A Story of Race and Baseball in Boston [Merged Threads]

[Craig S.]

There's a new title from Howard Bryant due out in September titled Shut Out: a Story of Race and Baseball in Boston.

According to Kirkus, it's a look at the racism of the team, placed against the racism of the city. Sounds like it's not a very good portrayal of the team - the last paragraph of this review says, "That the Bosox haven't won a World Series in umpteen years is embarrassing: the legacy of racism, though, is poisonous."

I'm guessing this one may not go over well with Sox fans, but I've pre-ordered a copy. I'm wondering whether it will be good journalism, or simply venom.

[KCBOOMER]

I'll bet Jim Rome can't wait for this to come out. All I can say about this is "He who is without sin should cast the first stone". "He" in this case is any American city.

[hmrsf]

Originally posted by Craig S.


I'm guessing this one may not go over well with Sox fans, but I've pre-ordered a copy. I'm wondering whether it will be good journalism, or simply venom.

Why? It is true. The Soxs were the last to intergrate. By using only white players and ignoring the black players, we did not field the best team.

I saw a report where the Soxs could have had Mayes. Tell me if you think history may have changed.

This is not a pretty past situation. Yawkeys did many things for baseball, this they were absolutely wrong.......and paid the price.

[satchel]

Originally posted by KCBOOMER
I'll bet Jim Rome can't wait for this to come out. All I can say about this is "He who is without sin should cast the first stone". "He" in this case is any American city.

I agree that racism has been endemic to virtually every U.S. city, but Boston's legacy is up there with L.A.'s as one of the worst. The book should be an interesting read.

[Skip]

Originally posted by satchel
The book should be an interesting read. I'll edit "should" with "could", or even "will hopefully".

[Craig S.]

Originally posted by hmrsf


Why? It is true. The Soxs were the last to intergrate. By using only white players and ignoring the black players, we did not field the best team.

I saw a report where the Soxs could have had Mayes. Tell me if you think history may have changed.

This is not a pretty past situation. Yawkeys did many things for baseball, this they were absolutely wrong.......and paid the price.

I was waiting for you to weigh in on this one!

I know the Sox have a horrible race history, but I just hope the book doesn't vilify the city or the fans, only the ownership. Like Boomer said in his posting, it's easy to throw stones, but I just want something that keeps its objectivity despite a subject on which it's easy to preach.

Interesting that you mention Mays, because the review talks about how they passed on both him and Jackie Robinson. I wonder how many more or less than 660 Willie would have retired with had he played in Fenway.

I'm really looking forward to this one.

[hmrsf]

Originally posted by Craig S.


I was waiting for you to weigh in on this one!

.

I'm really looking forward to this one.

I know that people who do learn from history are doomed to repeat it. I think I saw a promo for this book on NECN (New England Cable News.) I look forward to reading it myself.


Sox fans are well aware of this. I hope others feel as I do. It is an ugly chapter of the teams past. Learn the lesson and move forward. Shining a light on a subject is not a bad thing. It can be healing.

[soxfan121]

Originally posted by Craig S.
Interesting that you mention Mays, because the review talks about how they passed on both him and Jackie Robinson. I wonder how many more or less than 660 Willie would have retired with had he played in Fenway.

Let's not forget that LOTS of teams passed on Robinson, Mays, Aaron and others - not just the Sox.

Tom Yawkey (and Joe Cronin) was a racist %$@#% - this is neither a news flash nor a revelation. That racism inhibited MANY teams in the 50's and 60's from winning is in the same boat. I agree with HMRSF that shining a light on the ugliness of the past helps the future avoid the same mistakes.

It should be an intersting read, but I hope it explores a depth we haven't seen before, otherwise, it's just a recycling of a story some of us know entirely too well.

[VNV Nation]

I think Philadelphia is as racist a town as any. They were one of the last teams to integrate and frankly, have a worse record than probably any other in terms of developing black players, hiring blacks, etc.

The last black superstar in Philadelphia was Dick Allen. In fact, you'd have a hard time coming up with a team of black players the Phils have developed. Most of their best black players have come via trades (of which, there aren't many: Garry Maddox, Bake McBride, Abreu). There was a brief moment when the Phils had a decent Latin American program going on (George Bell, Samuel, Franco) but of course, they let Bell slip away for nothing and traded Franco for Von Hayes. The last Phillies team to win anything was conspicuously white (Daulton gang).

[SmedIndy]

Except - Philly seems to have embraced Iverson and McNabb....

[sweaver]

And Jimmy Rollins just got himself elected to the All-Star team....although they are trying to trade Robert Person.

It is odd that a "liberal" area like Massachusetts has the team with probably the worst record for integration. Certainly the slowest start. The Yankees were not covered with glory by their record, either, but Pumpsie Green?

Remember, nobody could integrate during Landis' term as commissioner. From 1920-44, it would never have come to pass.

[Craig S.]

Originally posted by sweaver
It is odd that a "liberal" area like Massachusetts has the team with probably the worst record for integration. Certainly the slowest start. The Yankees were not covered with glory by their record, either, but Pumpsie Green?

That's one of my concerns about the book. I don't want it to smear the people of Boston, since I don't think they were at all the ones to blame for the slow integration.

[pathogan]

Actually, the Al was far behind the Nl in intergration[look at the mvp awards from 47-65 in the Nl vs al}, the yankees and george weiss in paricular were racist in their policies,one of the reasons for the yankess decline was their failure to sign good young black and lationo players[unless celerino sanchez counts] Th sox, whose record is disgusting[Pumpsie Green?} have paid the price.again. and again. Yawkey may have been a sweet man. if you were white.The curse of the bambino could be called the curse of jackie robinson[he tried out, well worked out for the sox. and was deemed not good enough...}Steinbrenner is a wacko , but he doesnt give a hoot what color you are,which makes him,actually alot better then an icon like yawkey...this is a sad chapter here, folks

[soxfan121]

Originally posted by pathogan
Actually, the Al was far behind the Nl in intergration[look at the mvp awards from 47-65 in the Nl vs al}, the yankees and george weiss in paricular were racist in their policies,one of the reasons for the yankess decline was their failure to sign good young black and lationo players[unless celerino sanchez counts] Th sox, whose record is disgusting[Pumpsie Green?} have paid the price.again. and again. Yawkey may have been a sweet man. if you were white.The curse of the bambino could be called the curse of jackie robinson[he tried out, well worked out for the sox. and was deemed not good enough...}Steinbrenner is a wacko , but he doesnt give a hoot what color you are,which makes him,actually alot better then an icon like yawkey...this is a sad chapter here, folks

Yawkey was never contemporaries with Steinbrenner during the "black-out" in the AL...George did not buy the team until 1973 when the color line had been obliterated.

Dan Topping, Del Webb and Larry McPhail, as the owners of the NYY club from 1945 to 1964, were partially responsible for the AL's slow acceptance of "colored ballplayers". It can be accurately stated that the NYY club could have had an OF of Mays, Aaron and Mantle - had ownership not been so reticent to add an African-American to their roster. They certainly had the money and knew of the abilities of the aforementioned players (and alot more) but simply chose, like a majority of the principal owners in the AL to continue their exclusionary and racist hiring policies.

[pathogan]

Originally posted by soxfan121


Yawkey was never contemporaries with Steinbrenner during the "black-out" in the AL...George did not buy the team until 1973 when the color line had been obliterated.

Dan Topping, Del Webb and Larry McPhail, as the owners of the NYY club from 1945 to 1964, were partially responsible for the AL's slow acceptance of "colored ballplayers". It can be accurately stated that the NYY club could have had an OF of Mays, Aaron and Mantle - had ownership not been so reticent to add an African-American to their roster. They certainly had the money and knew of the abilities of the aforementioned players (and alot more) but simply chose, like a majority of the principal owners in the AL to continue their exclusionary and racist hiring policies.


thanks, im actually aware of when steinbrenner bought the team, I was comparing an icon to one who is often berated, and comparing therein.

[VNV Nation]

As for the general liberalness of the Boston area...I will direct you to question black Boston athletes from the 60s and 70s on this issue...or, just any black person living in the greater Boston area during thist ime.

[sweaver]

That's why I put it in quotes, VNV.

Just curious: are any of the NDF regulars black? If so, you might be able to speak to this more than the rest of us.

[TimmyB]

This is not the proudest chapter in Red Sox history.

It's probably no coincidence the Sox suffered through some horrible seasons from 1951-1966 as they passed on so many talented players. They missed the boat on integration and hopefully this book will shed some light on the subject.

Yawkey did many wonderful things for the team -- this, however, was his greatest disservice. In a town where sports play such an important role he could have helped instead of hindered.

Sure, lots of teams passed on Mays, Aaron, etc., but, bottom line, they were there for the picking and some backwards views hurt the team and the town.

[Max Power]

This one looks good:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/041592779X/qid=1031364241/sr=2-1/ref=sr_2_1/002-3337084-0346441
anyone planning to get it?

[Craig S.]

I'm not sure whether I'll buy that one, or wait for it to come in at the library.

There was a previous thread about this one, too:

http://www.netshrine.com/vbulletin2/showthread.php?s=&threadid=4793

[Max Power]

Originally posted by Craig S.
There was a previous thread about this one, too

Good catch - let me merge them..........

[Craig S.]

I started this one yesterday, and I ended up finishing today. A great read that I couldn't put down, surprising given the topic.

Several points that I found interesting:

- Will McDonough is portrayed as a real ass, for his continued support of obvious racists like Pinky Higgins, and those who weren't so obvious, like Joe Cronin and the Yawkeys. Not just sour grapes from Bryant, either, as it's backed up with things Will wrote. Gammons comes across fine, as does Bob Ryan, while Bud Collins gets some kudos for being one of the first to challenge the Sox' front office on their attitudes.

- I'm pretty realistic about racism in the game, but even I was shocked at some of the behaviors and attitudes of the Boston brass in the past. No black free agents signed by the Sox for the first 16 years of free agency? Wow. And this is well after the worst of the lot were gone - Pinky Higgins and Cronin. Also, Joe Morgan (the manager) really gets slammed for some of the things he said or did.

- The whole busing issue in Boston. Growing up in Canada, I was only peripherally aware that this occurred. I thought it was amazing that so much of these problems took place so recently.

- Seems like it's getting better, although players are still wary of the situation. Dan Duquette is portrayed in a very positive light for working towards this goal. While he may have handled some situations badly (Big Mo), he was also the first front-office guy to stand up and say, "There's a problem here." Despite his GM issues, he gets a lot of praise for actively trying to change things.

Overall, I thought it was a well-written book on a topic that is always difficult. Bryant doesn't come off preachy, or as someone with an agenda. As much as it's possible, he takes a very objective approach. I'd recommend this one to anybody with an interest in baseball history or race in sports. Great book.

[Skip]

Thanks Craig. I'll try to get to this one more expeditiously than most books.

[soxfan121]

Craig, you sold me. I'll be buying the book and look forward to reading it. Thanks for the 'reader's digest version'.

[pwdennis]

An unfortunate sidebar to the Yankees' defacto refusal to intregrate, was that they continued to dominate baseball without integrating thus creating the illusion that integration was not necessary for competitive purposes.

The Yankees won the World Series in 49,50,51,52,53,56.58,61 & 62. Had they lost some of these series they might have come to their senses more quickly.

[GGC]

I found this one at my local library a couple of months ago. I didn't read the whole thing, but I enjoyed the parts I read. Not only does it cover the issues of race and sports in Boston, it also does a good job with Red Sox history over the post 60 or so years.

[TimmyB]

Just about finished with it (about 20 pages to go).

I haven't read this one quickly as it is actually more disturbing that I thought it would be. While I was prepared for the Higgins/Yawkey/Cronin bit, and the inevitable Robison/Mays fiascos, I was shocked by what was going on under my nose at a time that I considered myself a reasonably attentive fan. In particular, the 25 players/25 cabs days when guys like Dave Henderson, Ellis Burks and Don Baylor were having, if not Reggie Smith-type problems with the city and club, were, in very real ways, still feeling it with some in the organization. (Hendu is said to have worn a "Boston Sucks" tee under his uniform while in Oakland; too bad, since there would probably be a statue of him in Kenmore Square had the Sox won in '86.)

Will McDonough comes off terribly in this one (as Craig mentioned). I think Bryant gives Shaunessey a free pass that is not entirely deserved (but, I also question my own objectivity when discussing the CHB). Maybe it's a coincidence that he has saved some of his most churlish writing for Manny, Pedro, Rice, Offerman and so forth. Granted, he's a cynic about all things Red Sox, but I wonder about him sometimes (I'll say again, I would question my objectivity on this mark).

What really surprises me is the feelings that some of the players had about the city at time I perceived them as being quite popular. Granted, I lived about 65 miles and a world away from Boston during the height of the busing and post-Stuart murders eras. From Tiant to Rice, Baylor to Hendu to Lee Smith, Mo to Pedro -- these guys were/are genuinely popular among the fans. Many of these guys weren't feeling the love -- and a lot of that came from the front office.

Lou Gorman may have paid the highest price for past sins as he seemed interested in signing the best players regardless of race, but, in many cases, those best players would not ever in a million years come to Boston. Part of the reason Boston didn't sign a black free agent for so many years is those the team pursued would have nothing to do with them (Kirby Puckett as a lone exception, who came very close to signing with Boston).

The book also forced me to take another look at the make-up of the '74-'78 Sox and the '86 team -- decent racial balances added to decent roster balance equaled on-field success. That racial balance tipped after both those eras and led to pretty low (by our insane expecations) times.

There's a lot of blame to go around -- the team, players, fans, media, the city. No free rides through this one.

[sweaver]

I doubt that any team would get a clean slate on this score.....racism is blamed for a lukewarm fan following for the "We Are Family" Pirates. The caucasian superstars of the Big Red Machine, Bench and Rose, were far more popular in Cincinnati than Morgan, Perez, Foster, Concepcion, or any others.

[KCBOOMER]

There are a pair of absolute gems of interviews by Alex Belth with the author, Howard Bryant, of the book titled Shut Out: A Story of Race & Baseball in Boston over at The Hardball Times. Belth is the author of "The Brox Banter" and Bryant has had jobs at papers in both NY and Boston.

You can find them at:

http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/authors/abelth/

Our own thread on the book is at:

http://www.netshrine.com/vbulletin2/showthread.php?t=6149&highlight=howard+bryant

[sweaver]

Our own thread on the book is at:

http://www.netshrine.com/vbulletin2/showthread.php?t=6149&highlight=howard+bryant
Threads merged for your convenience.

[Makofan]

I doubt that any team would get a clean slate on this score.....racism is blamed for a lukewarm fan following for the "We Are Family" Pirates. The caucasian superstars of the Big Red Machine, Bench and Rose, were far more popular in Cincinnati than Morgan, Perez, Foster, Concepcion, or any others.

Was it Chuck Tanner who was "quoted" apocryphally when asked how many blacks he would play "8 on the road and 4 at home"? That always stuck in my head in the 70's

[KCBOOMER]

Threads merged for your convenience.

Not for my convenience or appreciation. The thread I started is about the articles not the book.

[sweaver]

The articles being in reference to the book, it is appropriate to have the discussion in one place.