Are you ready for some football? Greatest QBs

[VNV Nation]

Just to get in training camp mode, let's debate the greatest quarterbacks in NFL history:

1. John Elway
He's far from a consensus pick, but Elway has a good argument against almost any other great quarterback. He trails Marino, and only Marino, in most career counting stats, such as yardage and touchdowns, but he was far more mobile than Dan, and went to five Super Bowls, instead of one, and won two of them.
Compared to Montana, he had a much, much stronger arm, and for most of his career, he didn't play in a system designed to produce gaudy QB stats.
Montana and Staubach were renowned for their comeback ability, but of course, no one was ever better at this than Elway, with 47 career wins when trailing in the fourth quarter, plus The Drive in the AFC Championship game.

2. Joe Montana
My head wants me to say Steve Young was a better player than Montana, and maybe he was, but Montana's credentials are too good. Singlehandedly carried the Niners to a championship in '82.

3. Roger Staubach
His career was delayed by military obligation, and he retired early. In between, he played in four Super Bowls and seven NFC championships, was the No. 1 or No. 2 rated passer just about every season he played.

4. Dan Marino
Holds all the records.

5. Johnny Unitas

[Gosfgiants]

I can't really argue with your choices. Those are the greats at the QB position. I'd probably add Bradshaw into that list as well. He made the thows when he had to. I think that Brett Favre's name will probably require inclusion in this list once he's done playing.

[poorme]

I'd take Favre.

[moose]

i am (a) not a green bay fan, and (b) not particularly a favre fan...

...but i'm appalled at favre not being there. I know his career isn't over and all, but his #s until now could stand on their own.

[moose]

Originally posted by VNV Nation
Montana and Staubach were renowned for their comeback ability, but of course, no one was ever better at this than Elway, with 47 career wins when trailing in the fourth quarter, plus The Drive in the AFC Championship game.

i think comebacks are absolutely worth something - i believe that confidence in the huddle and earning a teammate's BELIEF that you can drive down and win the game is important.

that said, in some cases saying "elway came back to win in the 4th quarter!!!" is like saying "the yankees came back to win in the 9th!!!!"

by that i mean that they could have scored the runs earlier, but didnt.

[TGwynn19]

1) Joe Montana If it needed being done, it was done.

2) Dan Marino Give him Walter Payton as a teammate and this debate is OVER.

3) Fran Tarkenton Was a 2002 version of a QB in the 1970's

4) John Elway Probably had the most talent around him longer than any QB in history. But, damn he was good.

5) Warren Moon 1,002,973 yards passing (including CFL )

[LeGrandOrange]

Warren Moon was a revolutionary. If there's no Warren Moon, there would be fewer athletic quarterbacks in the NFL. The so-called "black quarterback" was made popular by Randall Cunningham, being the evolutionary freak he was, but Moon made it happen. He wasn't the first, but he was the best one, he was the most "fundamentally sound". Cunningham WAS better, but not as long as Moon was.

Gwynn's big 5 is my big 5, not necessarily in the same order, and it's going to take a lot for that to be changed. Favre is doing enough to get there...I'll say that.

[VNV Nation]

Moose:

Absolutely, Brett Favre is a great, great QB. But he played at the same time as Elway, Young, Marino, Montana....He certainly belongs in that group, but I can't see that he's any better than any of them. I also can't believe that all of the best quarterbacks in history played after 1980, so I felt compelled to put Johnny U. and Staubach there. If anything, guys like Otto Graham, Y.A. Tittle, Namath and Tarkenton deserve consideration before Favre. Favre makes the top 10 though.

As for the comebacks, it's really a different case in football than in baseball. For one thing, I believe Elway was hampered for years playing under Dan Reeves' system -- Reeves is/was a great coach, but he's not an offensive genius. Also, the last two minutes of a game is really where all of Elway's talents shone: you'd have to just turn the reins over to him and he would somehow get it done with his improvisational skills, escapability and incredible arm strength.

And Trevor, Elway certainly did have a lot of talent in his last few years, but was it more than Montana had with Rice, Craig, Taylor, etc., or Aikman in Dallas, or Bradshaw? The teams Elway lost Super Bowls with were honestly not very good.

[VNV Nation]

Just to complete my top 10:


6. Steve Young Really, I think he was as good as anyone, ever. But didn't have as many good years.
7. Otto Graham -- played 10 years, played in championship game 9 times.
8. Brett Favre
9. Dan Fouts
10. Fran Tarkenton

[johnny]

Originally posted by TGwynn19
2) Dan Marino Give him Walter Payton as a teammate and this debate is OVER.



I agree with you Trev.

Marino, Montana, Unitas, John "Herman Munster" Elway (as a Seahawk and Yankee fan, I have always hated him ;) ),and Favre

[pwdennis]

Johnny Unitas

Of all the quarterbacks I've seen, Johnny Unitas was the toughest and most fearless.

Since Unita's heydays the rules have been changed to make it easier for easier for receivers to get open. Under today's rules Unitas would be throwing for 300 yards a game routinely.

Others on my greatest QB list (in no particular order)

Steve Young
Terry Bradshaw
Dan Marino
Bart Starr
John Elway
Sonny Jurgenson
Dan Marino
Roger Staubach
Fran Tarkington

I have limited this to QBs that I actually saw over the course of several seasons. Although I saw Y.A. Tittle and Bobby Layne play a couple of times, it was only at the tail end of their careers. From what I saw of Layne, I suspect that during his prime he was one tough hombre.

[rcartman28]

1. Montana--he just had a way of winning championships and big games...
2. Unitas--best field commander and toughest
3. Marino--only lacked supporting talent and pretty much single-handedly carried Dolphins for years.
4. Elway--amazing knack for comebacks
5. Favre--I live in Wisconsin, of course I think he's one of the greatest.
6. Young--misfortune of being Montana's caddy for several years.
7. Graham--the Browns always won when he was quarterback.
8. Layne--one tough hombre.
9. Bradshaw--crazy like a fox, and won.
10. Starr--ran Lombardi's system to perfection.

[KCBOOMER]

VNV, you don't have Johnny U. in your top ten???? He is certainly no worse than second at his position. Incredible leader, great at fourth quarter comebacks, and tough as nails.

[johnny]

Originally posted by pwdennis

Others on my greatest QB list (in no particular order)


Sonny Jurgenson


Now THAT was one tough s.o b.!

[Max Power]

No Stabler? Just asking - I know little 'bout football these days............

[WiredTiger]

I would say....

1. Marino.
2. Montana
3. Unitas
4. Bobby layne (The last Lion Qb to be better than average!)

[soxfan121]

Originally posted by Max Power
No Stabler? Just asking - I know little 'bout football these days............

I agree. The Snake makes my top 10...Snake did everything in his power to win, and accomplished that at a pretty remarkable rate.

1. Montana.
2. Favre. The consecutive games streak is mighty impressive, and there have been years where he has single-handedly made the Pack contenders when they would have been 3-13 with a normal QB.
3. Marino. Best arm ever.
4. Graham. Record of success speaks for itself.
5. Moon. Revolutionized the position, did nearly everything well.
6. Unitas.
7. Bradshaw. Won him some Super Bowls.
8. Elway. The myth is larger than the accomplishments, IMO.
9. Stabler. All he did was win.
10. Jim Kelly. Rates with Unitas in toughness, Favre in leadership, and won a ton of games (and should have won the SB, if not for wide-right).

[JamesI]

In a normal game, Dan Marino. In a big game, Joe Montana, and for a huge comeback Frank Reich.

[Gosfgiants]

This thread shows how dependent QB's are on having talented guys at the rest of the positions. You don't become a great QB without good receivers and offensive line that will allow you time throw.

[tortured angel]

For the first 12 years of Elway's career, he had only one other Pro Bowl offensive player but still went to 3 Super Bowls. Once Reeves was gone and he got some talent around him he won 2 Super Bowls.

One day, maybe someone will come up with support neutral stats for football, but until then just put any other QB in that joke of an offense Reeves ran in Denver and tell me they go to 3 Super Bowls.

[VNV Nation]

Originally posted by KCBOOMER
VNV, you don't have Johnny U. in your top ten???? He is certainly no worse than second at his position. Incredible leader, great at fourth quarter comebacks, and tough as nails.

I had Unitas 5th.

[poorme]

One time I got all fired up about someone denegrating Jim McMahon. So I did all kinds of research and found only a few quarterbacks who really stand out above the rest. The guys head and shoulders above were marino, montana, young, elway, and favre. I didn't compare before 1970. After that you have a whole bunch of guys who are very similar statistically...the theismans and aikmans and........jim mcmahon (although he played many fewer games).

[qtlaw]

I think more so than in Baseball, numbers just don't do justice to football, especially QBs. If you go by the numbers the names Young, Favre, Elway, Marino and Montana will automatically go to the front because they played/play in the era where passing was the dominant play, not running.

My feeble attempt at ranking the greatest:

1. Montana-just the essence of cool in the huddle/pocket: the QBs one true essential ingredient;
2. Johnny Unitas-he won and had the respect of everyone
3. Bart Starr-ditto
4. Elway-early brilliance finally rewarded later; (Rumour form Stanford sources that not the brightest lamp)
5. Stabler-pure sympathy vote, loved watching him throw those sidearm spirals right where they needed to be.

[Skip]

This is hard, because it must be skewed to modern players. However, here goes.

Elway - if the SB blowouts werent so hard to forget, he'd be more obvious.
Unitas - Wow. Plus, he went to [Tom Jackson voice] Louisville [/TJV]
Montana - obvious, though perhaps overrated due to the cast and coaching (we'll never know).
Favre - his freewheeling nature both propels him into top stature but keeps him from the very top.
Young - always overshadowed by Montana, but really his equal and if he'd gotten to play for that team years sooner, perhaps his superior.
Marino - always benefited by a pass-happy, one dimensional offense, but still truly great. Too bad he didnt get a shot on a better balanced team.
Tarkenton - The amazin' mobile man who did a lot with a little
Moon - Hard to translate CFL into NFL, but if you could - wow.
Staubach - I liked him because my dad hated him (and my dad taught him at the USNA).
Kelly - truly great, but never ahead of the best he played with.

It's hard to include older guys like Tittle, Baugh, Starr, etc. because (at least to me) the quarterback wasn't as important back then. Unitas is the only real career standout based on the way we view the game today.

Funny (haha) how noone has even mentioned Joe Theismann (rhymes with Heisman). :D

[LeGrandOrange]

The original Joey Heisman.
He was pretty good but not one of the greatest, with or without "the injury". He probably could've played until he was 40 like Doug Flutie is doing (and if he had some more NFL years, I would've floated HIS name in this), but I still don't think he would've reached "eliteness", even with that 1983 year.

[moose]

Originally posted by Skip
Funny (haha) how noone has even mentioned Joe Theismann (rhymes with Heisman). :D
he never popped into my head, but if you needed a break, he could win a game in a snap.

I once had this conversation with a dude from Lawrence, Kansas, who thought that James Taylor really tore it up on stage.

ya know?

[sweaver]

You know, Theismann's name was pronounced Thees-man, but the college PR guy changed it to rhyme with Heisman as part of the campaign.

And Joe has kept it.

[VNV Nation]

Is it just me...I don't see Jim Kelly as a Hall of Fame QB at all. He played in a great offensive system, with tons of talent at RB, WR and on the offensive line, but he never dominated the league statistically -- he was among the best QBs in the league but never the best. Had one season with 30+ TDs, and his lifetime TD-INT ratio is not all that spectacular for modern QBs (237-175) -- compare to Randall Cunningham (207-134, plus 35 rushing TDs), Dave Krieg (261-199), Boomer (247-184), or to Steve Young (232-107 + 43 rushing), Marino (420-252), Favre (287-172), Elway (300-226 + 33 rushing).

I thought it was pretty darn evident that Kelly was the guy most responsible for the Super Bowl losses, especially the first one, which they should have won.

[tortured angel]

Originally posted by VNV Nation

I thought it was pretty darn evident that Kelly was the guy most responsible for the Super Bowl losses, especially the first one, which they should have won.

Was he Norwood's holder? Laces out!!!

[LeGrandOrange]

By that token, though, Marv Levy shouldn't be considered. But Levy was a great coach...whereever it was he was coaching. And he was just a plumb nice guy. He always had one of my favorite personalities. Not a bad sideliner either.
Back to the guy he coached though...Kelly was a pretty good QB, and was pretty darn good at the no-huddle, which can be like walking a tightrope to most of us. He was also one of the best at throwing for 3,000 yards, his 8 seasons of such was a very high mark when he retired.
I think that Kelly only looks bad because he played in the USFL as well, and those stats don't carry over, naturally.
I personally think he shouldn't have gone in when he did. There are a number of guys that were finalists that should've beat him whom I would've taken, James Lofton, Art Monk, and even though he's a punter, Ray Guy. Actually, Kelly may still have been on my ballot, because I don't know how many I can vote for. But there were a few I would've given precedence to.

[VNV Nation]

No -- Marv Levy is clearly a HOF coach, just as Bruce Smith is clearly a HOF defensive end and Thomas is a HOF RB...

The no-huddle? cheap gimmickry, if that excites you, put Boomer in as well, as they have similar lifetime stats and Boomer was maybe the best PA quarterback ever.

If Kelly comes out of the no-huddle and chills the hell out late in the second quarter of SB XXV, the Bills win.

[SuperChief]

Originally posted by VNV Nation
No -- Marv Levy is clearly a HOF coach, just as Bruce Smith is clearly a HOF defensive end and Thomas is a HOF RB...

The no-huddle? cheap gimmickry, if that excites you, put Boomer in as well, as they have similar lifetime stats and Boomer was maybe the best PA quarterback ever.

If Kelly comes out of the no-huddle and chills the hell out late in the second quarter of SB XXV, the Bills win.

cheap gimmickry? The no huddle was designed to wear down the defense AND, unlike the bengals "sugar" huddle, allow Kelly to read the defense and call plays at the line.

[VNV Nation]

Exactly -- cheap gimmickry that backfired at the wrong time.

[gyb13]

Joe, Montana

[Skip]

Wouldn't that be Montana, Joe? Or is this some D.C./technocrat/Brasilian thing with the names? :p

[gyb13]

Originally posted by Skip
Wouldn't that be Montana, Joe? Or is this some D.C./technocrat/Brasilian thing with the names? :p
methinks you have heard of the town in montana that was renamed Joe and are just picking a bone with me in order to run up your post count and get back to me after my 'random hick' SOCS post... :D

[tortured angel]

Originally posted by gyb13
Joe, Montana

If Montana had to play for Reeves, he would be the first coming of Tommy Maddox.