Best School

[poorme]

What type of school provides the best education?

[SmedIndy]

I'm really torn, becuase I believe in public schools. If you have the money, a private, small, secular school is the best. My sister-in-law home schools, but I think there's a socialization problem and it's not always the best for children to be "sheltered".

However, each child and family is different, and what is best for me is not best for you.

[soxfan121]

Tough question, but if the aim is for the best possible education, then a private-for-profit school provides the most individualized attention while still providing the socialization necessary for development.

[Ytown Tribe fan]

I'm old-school about public schools, but they vary widely in quality.

My boys are going into 3rd and 7th grades in the Boardman public school system, and we've been really impressed with it. Right next door in Youngstown, the system is one step from being run by the state due to fiscal problems.

Aside from home schooling, which has caught on big, Montessori schools are the best.

[Skip]

Sorry poorme, but this is an unanswerable question. So much is dependent upon the local schools, the family situation, and the individual kid.

I am a firm believer in the public schools although I understand that some systems are deservedly under siege for funding or other reasons.

My biggest gripe with any school argument is the increasing majority of parents who have abdicated their responsibility and handed it off to the schools. Let me put it simply - it is a parent issue first and foremost, then a school issue. Parents who are not involved in their childrens' education are no better than child abusers.

Parents who dump it on the schools, whether public or private, are schmucks anyway. I know families who fit in both groups. Actually nothing burns my bunions more than listening to some of my acquaintances (the mom and dad of a kid at the $5000/yr KY money, probably 15K in NY private school) going on about how great their school is while they are out and about town every night so that their kids get about an hour a day of parental contact.

For the most part, I believe the public schools are at least "fine" when there is appropriate parental involvement. Using the "you get what you pay for mentality", I will accept that private schools are better, but don't believe they are necessary when the family has its head on straight. However, if thats the path you want to follow, great - we still have free choice and I wont dispute the benefits. I have many friends with kids in private schools, I only resent them when they blame the schools for problems, and at the same time aren't AT LEAST equally and actively involved in their kids' educational lives.

You may have discovered that education is very important to me; likewise family involvement. Sorry if I over-ranted.

[poorme]

Originally posted by Skip

You may have discovered that education is very important to me; likewise family involvement. Sorry if I over-ranted.

I was looking for a topic that might raise some ire. Must be the mid-season malaise thing going on.

I agree with you Skip. Parents are 90% of the problem/solution. If your kid is not what you expected, take a look in the mirror.

I said "home school" because teachers spend most of their time dealing with the trouble makers. In my idealist world, I would say public schools....but I don't live there.

[tenkevcardinal]

It depends on the area you live in. In my hometown, Memphis, the best high school was a the optional part of a public school. But, as that was hard to get in, the next best for someone who couldn't get in there was a private, secular school in town that was really expensive. It all depends on where you are.

[spitball]

I agree with skip. I can't say much more because it's a subject that really gets my blood boiling . I'm having a good day and I'd like it to stay that way.

[pwdennis]

Too many variables at work here. My sister lives in Milwaukee, where the public schools are deplorable. She has chosen to home school her three kids, all of whom are performing above grade level by 1.5 years or better. For someone like my sister, who is motivated, educated, and quite intelligent, home schooling is the best route.

For many, it would be a poor choice since one thing a teacher must be able to do is stay ahead of the students, something which would not be possible for all.

I would rank private schools (both religious and non-religious) as having the potential to exceed the performance of public schools, especially since most public school instructors belong to NEA which tends to believe in and adhere to a questionable orthodoxy. Whether or not private schools succeed in outperforming public schools is another matter, but my observation has been that the best private schools far exceed the best public schools - whether the general average is better is unknown.

Lest I sound elitist, I attended nothing but public schools (14 of them - military brat, you know) until picking a private college. My college classmates who attended private secondary schools typically were better prepared going in than were us public school alumni.

[SmedIndy]

Ah, but where I grew up private school wasn't an option, really, without a trip. However, our public school was tremendous.

[CubFan7125]

I don't know what kind of schools provide the best education - But the University Of Minnesota admitted & graduated :grad: me - So I would think long & hard before sending someone there:)

[Skip]

Originally posted by pwdennis
Too many variables at work here. My sister lives in Milwaukee, where the public schools are deplorable. She has chosen to home school her three kids, all of whom are performing above grade level by 1.5 years or better. For someone like my sister, who is motivated, educated, and quite intelligent, home schooling is the best route.I'm sure even Milwaukee, or Cleveland, or any other city getting a lot of press for bad schools, has some good public schools, some ok ones, as well as the bad ones. It is on a school by school, and even moreso an area by area basis - which opens up a whole new discussion. Also, the argument for home schooling must include the understanding that its only an option for parents that can afford the time, lack of income, and effort to do so, as well as having the motivation and intelligence to stay ahead of the students.

Originally posted by pwdennis
I would rank private schools (both religious and non-religious) as having the potential to exceed the performance of public schools, especially since most public school instructors belong to NEA which tends to believe in and adhere to a questionable orthodoxy. Whether or not private schools succeed in outperforming public schools is another matter, but my observation has been that the best private schools far exceed the best public schools - whether the general average is better is unknown.I cant argue with this other than not even touching the NEA argument.

[sweaver]

I vote for public schools. I taught in the public schools for 13 years. The main difference that I saw in private schools' graduates was more arrogance.

[Skip]

Originally posted by sweaver
The main difference that I saw in private schools' graduates was more arrogance. I, and I am sure you, won't paint everyone with a broad brush, but as an educator at both public and private colleges I have seen what you say here too. Often more in the parents than in the students themselves.

[SmedIndy]

What I don't like about some public schools is the sheer size of them. I loved my school, where I graduated with 186, but some schools have 500 or more in the class.

However, there is some unfounded elitism in some private school students and parents. My sophomore year, we pledged a guy in our fraternity who went to an exclusive private school in Indianapolis (the only secular private HS there at the time). His dad was a pretty big wheel, and he had all the right credentials.

The problem was, he thought the world owed him everything since he was his Dad's son and went to this school. We couldn't initiate him after one semester because he had a Blutarsky GPA.....and the second semester wasn't any better.

[Skip]

Originally posted by SmedIndy
he had a Blutarsky GPA... :D Zero. :D Point. :D Zero. :D

Any sighting of Senator Blutarsky is a good thing.

[sweaver]

I have worked at schools with graduating classes as small as 55 and as large as 400 and change. The single most important factor in any of them, as well as in individual student performance, is the level of importance the parents put on education.

If a student is a problem, 90% of the time meeting the parents explains the problem.

[pwdennis]

Originally posted by sweaver
I have worked at schools with graduating classes as small as 55 and as large as 400 and change. The single most important factor in any of them, as well as in individual student performance, is the level of importance the parents put on education.

If a student is a problem, 90% of the time meeting the parents explains the problem.


I couldn't agree more

[poorme]

Originally posted by sweaver

If a student is a problem, 90% of the time meeting the parents explains the problem.

Bingo. Why is the general population so clueless on this? Even parents with good students decry our failing schools.

[WiredTiger]

Full disclosure notice: Both my parents were public school teachers and several of my Aunts worked in public schools. My wife also taught at public schools for three years before joining the private sector. My wife and I are both Catholic, so I am kind of an extreme voice on this issue.

I think the school systems are an easy scapegoat. Based on my experience I have found that the top 20% of Public Schools are probably better on average than anything a private school can provide. The bottom 20% of public schools are worse than any private school.

In the area that I currently reside in Detroit it would be very tough to find a private school that could surpass the public school system.

I personally would never send my child to a private school unless the public school was dangerous or atrociously bad. I support everyone's right to go to a private school but don't feel that the taxpayers should have to pay for it. I think it would be a better use of resources to try to improve the public schools instead of trying to come up with a competing system.

Vouchers have been a very hot issue in Michigan the last couple of years. They have been voted down twice but keep getting put back on the ballot. I believe that vouchers would not benefit those students who need help the most. The public schools would hurt by the decrease in funding and students would be hurt further.

My opinions on home schooling are mixed. From the people who I have met that are home schooled it seems to be that they have an increase in academic skills but a decrease in social skills. School is not only a place to learn basic skills but also a place to nurture those social skills that will help a person succeed in their career and in life. I would think that parents of home schooled children would have to work doubly hard at ensuring that their children get the contact with other children they need.

[pathogan]

My oldest children wen to Catholic grammar schools and catholic high schools[actually, my oldest daughter is on a 4 year academic scholarship to a catholic college] my younger children go to public schools, which is hit or miss in Brookly, though in my neighnorhood they seem to be pretty good. Home schooling seems to be an extreme reaction to social problems,though hey, they're your kids. Nice, like very nice , to live where you have options[albeit expensive ones]

[TreAnt985]

I think private schools can offer a better education, but a private-for-profit school can cause problems.
There's a private school not more than 15 minutes from my house where over 1/2 the teachers have either been fired or quit (most quit to go to another school) on account of the leadership at the school...
I went to a private school for a few years (when I was younger), and then I went to public school, and I preferred public school much better, and I got about the same education, too.

[Fuzzy Bear]

Originally posted by sweaver
I vote for public schools. I taught in the public schools for 13 years. The main difference that I saw in private schools' graduates was more arrogance.

If I have to raise my grandchildren, I will do all I can to ensure that they are homeschooled.

I don't believe that children need the "socialization" of the public school. We have children being socialized by their peers (instead of their parents) and the results are awful.

I have not always believed this, and I realize homeschooling is not for everyone. It does, however, in my opinion, come down to the question of "Do I want my grandchildren raised by their parents or by their peers?" As someone who has worked as a substitute teacher, substance abuse counselor, and probation officer, the results, in my book are clear. I adopted my sons as teenagers; it was too late for them. I believe that in this day and age, the #1 determinant in raising crime-free, drug-free kids is to minimize their exposure to the public school. It was not that way when I was growing up. Sadly, it is, now.

[SmedIndy]

Fuzz -

I wholeheartedly disagree. Sheltering them, I believe, makes them easier prey in the future.

Also, you are painting all public schools with such a wide brush. Not every public school has these predatory elements lurking on every corner. Where I live now, I would not have any issues sending my daughter to the public school here.

Many of the students that come to our college are young men from public schools in small towns and big cities. Most all are fine young men serious in their studies, on their ways to becoming doctors, lawyers, and professors.

[sweaver]

I have friends that homeschool, and do a tremendous job. Others homeschool through the elementary years, and the kids go to public high school.

We never considered homeschooling our 4 children. While my wife and I both have an education background, I will defer to others who know better the ways of early childhood education. I spend a lot of time with my children, and they need some time away from me, and I from them!

[spitball]

I'm conflicted on this issue really.
When my son was in elementary school I was really into him being in public school. The parents were welcome on campus and encouraged to participate. And we did.
This year he started middle school. Completely different story. It's like my son is doing time at Attica. There's Armenian gangs and Latino gangs and even little stoners.These are grades 6 thru 8!! I want my son out of that school and in to a private school. But on the other hand I feel like I'm babying my son.
I went to a rough couple of schools. I went to elementary school in South East D.C. for a year. I was the only white guy in my school.I went to Inglewood High here in California. There were all kinds of gangs . I'm alive and I got a good education . My parents kept alot of books around the house for me. Being in those environments made me a better person I think.
The other side is my son is averse to reading. It's torture for him.
Computers , game boys, etc. are his obsession. His attention span is nil. ( Didn't Socrates say these exact words?)
I think a smaller, more intimate environment would get him on track. That means moving to Alaska or sending him to private school.
This issue makes me nuts.I hope you get my drift through the babbling.

[Craig S.]

Reading back through the posts, it looks like there's really no good answer for this question. There have been good arguments made for both public and private, and it looks like most of it comes down to the individual school.

Geez, no wonder parents fret over this decision.

[johnny]

Originally posted by Fuzzy Bear


I believe that in this day and age, the #1 determinant in raising crime-free, drug-free kids is to minimize their exposure to the public school. It was not that way when I was growing up. Sadly, it is, now.

I have to disagree with you on that one. You cannot blame a kid going bad on the schools.
Constant, honest communication is a better deterent than keeping them out of public schools. They are still going to be exposed to things outside of public schools that they would be exposed to inside of it.

Homeschooling I am not so sure about. Can parents really do a better job than professionals? And, I think it is good for kids to get out and spend time with their peers (not all peers are bad). The homeschoolers I have met in my life were very naive and still tied to their mother's apron...and this is in their early 20's.

You have to know the enemy to beat the enemy.

[WiredTiger]

There was a good story a couple of months back on one of the Newsie shows (20/20 or Primetime Live) about home schoolers.

They interviewed a handful of kids who were starting college after being home schooled. The kids adjusted very quickly to the educational part of college but had a tough time fitting in with the other students. Almost universally when asked the kids said if they had it to do over that they would have preferred to go to a regular school.

I don't think there is a right answer but it definitely helps if the parents fill in the weaknesses of each of the systems with challenging activities of their own.

[KCBOOMER]

I believe very strongly in the public school system. Universal education is one of the key hallmarks of our growth as a nation. Draining resources away from the many to cater to the few is not something I think much of.

I remember being in a southern state during the early eighties as school integration finally took hold. There were no bussing issues or such, just simply all the kids would go to the same school rather than the "separate but equal" facilities. The majority of white parents removed their children from the public school system and put them in private schools and then proceeded to vote against any school levy increases or bond issues for facilities for the public schools. And they did this all under the guise of "I want my children to have the best education".

Having said all that I must admit the best educational experience I ever had was in the sixth and seventh grades (I have a master's now) in a Catholic school. When discipline is swift and unappealable it is amazing how good your study habits become.

[TreAnt985]

I find it interesting that no one put 'private religious.'
Any specific reasons?
There are several private, religious schools near where I live with tons of kids in them...

[spitball]

I seriously have thought about a private religious school even though I'm not religious at all. But then again I don't want my son to be sheltered from the real world .
This IS a tough issue.

[sweaver]

Maybe no one here is privately religious.............

[poorme]

this poll is like one of those ballpark dot races. Only in slow motion.

[SmedIndy]

Originally posted by sweaver
Maybe no one here is privately religious.............

I'm a public neo-pagan (the internet said so...) but my real religion I keep private. (I did tell my 13-year old nephew my wife and I go to St. Sofa's every Sunday morning for their reading material, coffee, and coverage of the Formula One Race).

Sorry, I don't mean for us to go into that tangent, but....

[Fuzzy Bear]

I believe that there is some misunderstanding about the level of interaction with other children that homeschoolers receive.

Firstly, homeschoolers have the RIGHT to participate in extracurricular clubs, activities, and, yes, sports programs, of the local public school. Your local school administrator will not necessarily volunteer this information, but it is your RIGHT. They may attempt to put a guilt trip on you if you assert that right, but, since they don't have your kids' best interest at heart, I could care less about their guilt trips.

Secondly, is being "sheltered" or being "naive" a negative thing? We have children that are intellectually and emotionally distracted by their awareness of AIDS, sexuality issues, drugs, gangs, etc. They are unshelterd and sophisticated, but they are NOT BEING EDUCATED. They know about domestic violence, handgun proliferation, but do not know why Theodore Roosevelt was an important figure. They cannot name the states in a map of the United States. (In my local High School, a small city High School, National Honor Society students needed to take remedial non-credit classes in their freshman year at the local community college. They were in the Sunday School Class my wife and I taught, so I know this for a fact.)

Thirdly, many of the problems of today's teens stem from the fact that, through the public school, they are being socialized by their peers, and by an educational establishment that has substituted situational ethics for moral absolutes. An illustration: THOU SHALT NOT STEAL! is a moral absolute. A classroom exercise where children are asked whether or not it is morally permissable to steal money to pay for medication that the pharmacist won't give you because you're broke, but your spouse/child/sibling will die without the medication is situational ethics. JOHN Q. may have been an entertaining movie, but this type of instruction, coupled with the fact that a child's peers are now their primary socialization instrument, should give us insignt into why so many teenagers and young (18-21) adults have no qualms about committing crimes to obtain money not just for drugs, but for what they want. (I would challenge anyone reading this post to go down to your local juvenile probation office and ask how large the caseload is, and figure out what it is, per capita. Then go down to your local adult probation office and find out what number and percentage of offenders are ages 18-20.)

Fourthly, once a kid has problems, parents in many states are at legal disadvantage. In my home state, Florida, a child can legally refuse to enter a drug treatment center, or psychotherapy, or any other intervention I would choose for a child, and I can do nothing, yet I continue to be responsible for harms done by that child's dysfunctional behavior. Blaming parents is an easy thing to do. In my case, I adopted my wife's boys as teenagers (14 and 13) and had a nightmare of problems with my oldest. I can tell you from experience: He met his dysfunctional friends in the public school, he resisted all attempts we made to socialize him, and he became a messed up adult that today, at 22, is just beginning to get squared away. (It could have been much worse!) I'm not a perfect parent, and neither is my wife, but we have put our money where our mouths are, and I cannot accept that parents are 90% of the problem.

So if I am in the position, as many parents are, of suddenly having to raise grandchildren, I will see to it that that child(ren) will never set foot in a public school. My wife and I will be their socialization instruments, not their peers. They may not know about the AIDS virus and guns and knives, but they will learn about history, science, math, English, moral absolutes, and the Bible as the infallible Word of God. (How confused are kids today when they hear one thing at home and another in school?) They will be physically active, they will play with other children as necessary, they will have social outlets (though outlets not provided by the public school), but they will be directly educated by people that LOVE THEM AND HAVE THEIR BEST INTEREST AT HEART! Had I met my wife 10 years earlier, and known what I know now, my boys would have had that experience, and their lives would be richer, today.

[sweaver]

Fuzzy, I did not, and had no intention to say, that parents are 90% of the problem. I did say, that in 90% of the cases, meeting the parent EXPLAINS the problem. Most problem children have disinterested parents, or abusive parents, or some other such problem.

However, some children become problems even if they are from the best of homes. Will a different school alleviate these problems? Maybe. It is my experience that most people in trouble went looking for that trouble.

To my mind, the biggest problem with the public schools is the court system. We have decided, through our courts, that students MUST be educated in the public schools, no matter whether they have been disinterested, abusive, or violent to teachers or other students. Private schools can usually just drop such problems, who then must go.....back to public school.

I have other thoughts on school reform, which I will post elsewhere.

[pwdennis]

Originally posted by TreAnt985
I find it interesting that no one put 'private religious.'
Any specific reasons?
There are several private, religious schools near where I live with tons of kids in them...

I suspect that this would be the second choice of most of the home schoolers. My sister, who has home schooled her kids, might have considered a private religious school (a) if she could afford it, or (b) if her church had such a school nearby.

The socialization issue is often raised by foes of home schooling but if the home schoolers live in a subdivision, I would think there would be enough opportunities for "socialization". Correct me if I'm wrong, but many sociopaths, psychopaths, gang members and bigots were products of the public school system, so there is no guarantee that the socialization process is necessarily a good thing

[SmedIndy]

If they don't understand how to deal with their peers, they will be trampled underfoot, I believe. Being sheltered won't help them confront it when they are an adult.

I remember reading an article in a local paper in 1993 or so. It was on tattoos (they were starting to get big). (Actually, I have a tattoo I got in 1992 (before I met my wife, so she's never seen me without it), and it's pretty big on my right upper arm. I woulnd't do it now, but I was 27 and shiftless when idle then). Anyway, this article was in the lifestyle section, and showed some nice, intricate artwork.

Two days later, a letter showed up in the paper, pleading not to show anything like that tattoo article because "I'm trying to keep these negative influences away from my 12-year old". Liz and I looked at each other, and decided she'd love to have raised the Boy in the Plastic Bubble. Tattoos are not the root of all evil, and I don't understand how seeing an article on tattoos would send a child straight on the path to worshiping Asmodeus, so when I think of parents want to shelter their kids from "negative influences" I look at my shoulder and think I did OK with a "negative influence" there.

If you lived where I do, the public schools are wonderful, and there's no reason not to send your children there.

PW - That's a weak arguement about sociopaths, etc. There are plenty of bad apples in private school and that are homeschooled as well. That's a broad based generalization that smacks of something a Congressman would do to grandstand instead of solving a problem.

[johnny]

Fuzzy...I disagree with you on the sheltering issue (I think it is bad), and I do not want to get into a debate on it here, because it would take too long, but I must say from your words that your grandchild will know he/she is loved, and that is the most important foundation. The more parents get involved, the better the children will be.

[johnny]

Originally posted by pwdennis




The socialization issue is often raised by foes of home schooling but if the home schoolers live in a subdivision, I would think there would be enough opportunities for "socialization".

There is a big difference between (1)being in school and having to decide who you want to talk to in the halls, who do you sit by and have lunch with, who do you talk to in class, with no parents around, for 7 or so hours a day and (2)being at the mercy of a parent, who decides who can come over, who you can visit, how long these times are,etc.
Do you think subdivisions are exempt from bad influences?

Originally posted by pwdennis

Correct me if I'm wrong, but many sociopaths, psychopaths, gang members and bigots were products of the public school system, so there is no guarantee that the socialization process is necessarily a good thing

That is an easy thing to say, considering that most kids go through public schools. On the flipside, many law-abiding, non-bigoted citizens go through public schools, too.
Private schools are not cranking out 100% perfect angels, ya know.
There are bad apples in every bushel, no matter where the orchard is located.

[Skip]

Originally posted by Craig S.
Reading back through the posts, it looks like there's really no good answer for this question. There have been good arguments made for both public and private, and it looks like most of it comes down to the individual school.

Geez, no wonder parents fret over this decision. Exactly!

Another note is that while most people find choice to be good, the more choices you have, the easier it is to make a knee-jerk "grass is always greener" type decision to change the first time you have any sort of negative experience. In addition to the variety of private and homeschool options, within our public schools we have schools based on the normal (comprehensive) program, magnet programs, traditional program, advanced program, etc. etc. etc. and in many cases several versions of each from which they are allowed to choose.

[pwdennis]

The point on psychopaths,sociopaths and bigots was simply that the socialization process isn't a sure thing, no matter where it occurs.

As I indicated in my earlier posting, I always attended a public school. I did observe that my private school counterparts usualy had a more challenging curriculum to deal with, and that the pace of the classes I had was typically geared to the bottom third of the pack, leaving me unchallenged by school (fortunately I was an avid reader so I got my challengers elsewhere)