A Modest Bowl Proposal

[sweaver]

Bowl Proposal 2001-02
Top six teams get bye.
* indicates the top ranked team from a previous matchup, which may or may not have actually won the game, it's just easier to understand that way.
The top 15 are according to BCS rankings, the rest in order of the AP poll.

First round: December 15

New Orleans Bowl: #17 Georgia vs. #16 Virginia Tech

Holiday Bowl: #9 Stanford vs. #24 Florida State

Music City Bowl: #25 Toledo vs. #8 Illinois

Independence Bowl: #21 Fresno State vs. #12 Washington

Las Vegas Bowl: #13 LSU vs. #20 Brigham Young

Motor City Bowl: #19 Syracuse vs. #14 South Carolina

Seattle Bowl: #11 Oklahoma vs. #22 Ohio State

Insight.com Bowl: #7 Texas vs. #26 Hawaii

Galleryfurniture.com Bowl: #23 Louisville vs. #10 Maryland

GMAC Bowl: #15 Washington vs. #18 Michigan


Round 2: December 22

Outback Bowl: #1 Miami vs. *#16 Virginia Tech

Liberty Bowl: *#9 Stanford vs. *#8 Illinois

Peach Bowl: #5 Florida vs. *#12 Washington

Tangerine Bowl: *#13 LSU vs. #4 Oregon

Silicon Valley Bowl: #3 Colorado vs. *#14 South Carolina

Humanitarian Bowl: *#11 Oklahoma vs. #6 Tennessee

Sun Bowl: *#7 Texas vs. *#10 Maryland

Alamo Bowl: *# 15 Washington vs. #2 Nebraska



Round 3: December 29

Fiesta Bowl: *#1 Miami vs. *#8 Illinois

Citrus Bowl: *#5 Florida vs. *#4 Oregon

Cotton Bowl: *#3 Colorado vs. *#6 Tennessee

Gator Bowl: *#7 Texas vs. *#2 Nebraska


Round 4 (Semifinals) January 5

Orange Bowl: *#1 Miami vs. *#4 Oregon

Sugar Bowl: *#3 Colorado vs. *#2 Nebraska

Round 5—Finals---January 12

Rose Bowl: *#1 Miami vs. *#2 Nebraska

[SmedIndy]

That's a good way, but why save all the bowls? A 16 team tourney would be great. They do 28 in Div 3.

Take the conference winners from the Big 10, SEC, Big 12, Big East, Pac 10, ACC, MAC, WAC, Sun Belt, C-USA and Mountain West, and then the 5 best teams left. Notre Dame does not get a free pass.

If you don't win your league, you really shouldn't be a national title contender, plus it keeps some of the upset potential that makes the NCAA hoop tourney fun.

[sweaver]

I kept the small bowls because I like the small bowls. There is a certain charm to the Peach Bowl that would be a shame to lose.

[pwdennis]

The modest proposal is okay but I think that it is improved by NOT seeding it - the Division 1 football playoffs (and the NCAA Div 1 Basketball Championships) should be strictly random draw. This would eliminate the built-in bias (found in both BCS formulae and polls) in favor of certain programs and conferences

[sweaver]

For comparison's sake, here's the 2000-2001 setup.

First Round (December 9)

Mobile Alabama Bowl
#16 Purdue vs. #17 Michigan

Las Vegas Bowl
#9 Kansas State vs. # 24 Georgia

Oahu Bowl
#8 Nebraska vs. #25 Toledo

Aloha Bowl
#12 Texas vs. #21 Tennessee

Motor City Bowl
#13 Georgia Tech vs. #20 Auburn

Galleryfurniture.com Bowl
#14 TCU vs. #19 Northwestern

Humanitarian Bowl
#11 Notre Dame vs. Colorado State

Music City Bowl
#7 Florida vs. #26 Mississippi State

Micronpc.com Bowl
#10 Oregon vs. #23 Louisville

Insight.com Bowl
#15 Clemson vs. #18 Ohio State

Second Round (December 16)

Sun Bowl
#1 Oklahoma vs. “Purdue”

Peach Bowl
“Nebraska” vs. “Kansas State”

Holiday Bowl
#5 Virginia Tech vs. “Texas”

Alamo Bowl
#5 Washington vs. “Georgia Tech”

Silicon Valley Classic
#3 Miami vs. “TCU”

Independence Bowl
#6 Oregon State vs. “Notre Dame”

Outback Bowl
“Florida” vs. “Oregon”

Liberty Bowl
#2 Florida State vs. “Clemson “

Round three (December 23)
Quarterfinals

Cotton Bowl
“Oklahoma” vs. “Nebraska”

Citrus Bowl
“Washington” vs. “Virginia Tech”

Gator Bowl
“Miami” vs. “Oregon State”

Fiesta Bowl
“Florida State” vs. “Florida”

Round 4 (December 30)
Semifinals

Sugar Bowl
“Oklahoma” vs. “Washington”

Rose Bowl
“Miami” vs. “Florida State”

Finals (January 6)
“Oklahoma” vs. “Florida State”

[SmedIndy]

You at least have to have the conference winners in there, even if not ranked. Otherwise you'd just be grubbing to the power conferences....

[soxfan121]

Originally posted by SmedIndy
That's a good way, but why save all the bowls? A 16 team tourney would be great. They do 28 in Div 3.


Save all the bowls as the financial incentive. Pool all the money earned by a conference's schools in one lump sum. The way to make conference play interesting is to award the bowl money on a progressive scale that shafts the last place program and rewards those schools that make the tournament, advance in the tournament, and wins the torunament accordingly.

The networks might be in favor because of the potential for more lucrative marquee matchups.

sweaver for NCAA chariman.

[JamesI]

I like Smed's plan. I hate the idea of giving Notre Dame a free pass, and I hate the bias in the polling. I don't watch most of College Football just because of how stupid the ranking system is. A 16 team tourny would take long enough since they only play once a week.

[Craig S.]

I would have loved that system to have been used last season. No more guessing about the top 2 teams - make them prove it over several games.

[Skip]

The only way this will ever happen is if all the bowls (at least those with any history at all) are preserved. So ... combine Sweaver's use of the bowls and seeding process with Smed's idea for conference champs. Make it like March Madness - that's been pretty successful, eh. All conferences at least have a chance, but the stronger conferences get more teams in. There'll still be a hue and cry over who gets left out, but thats part of what makes it fun.

I hope something at least similar to this happens, but don't expect it anytime soon.

[sweaver]

With a single-elimination tournament, you need one less game than you have teams. So, if there are 25 bowl, you have 26 teams, for instance. For a 32-team tournament, you would need 31 bowls. I like the bye for the top teams, but that's opinion.

Using conference champions plus at-large bids, such as the basketball tournament does, could easily be done. Then, of course, you have to deal with all the little conferences wanting bids. Does the Ivy League then go back to I-A for football, to get an automatic bid? This is one reason (the other being money) that basketball went to 64 teams.

[SmedIndy]

No, Sweaver, they're in I-AA and do not allow their teams to go to the playoffs.

I-AA is perfect for those even smaller conferences who do not want to compete financially with the big boys. For them, it's about money spent on football. I think the teams going from I-AA to I-A are really having a tough time of it getting opponents and meaningful games (except ones that can plop into a conference, like UAB).

There are only 117 (I think) D-1A football teams. Why 32? 16 is plenty! There are too many freakin' bowls anyway...

[KCBOOMER]

I guess I would prefer something even simpler. You can keep all the bowls. Use the four BCS bowls as the first round of a single elimination eight team tournamet. The following week-end you have two games involving the winners and the week after that you have the championship game.

This only adds two weeks to the schedule for two teams and one week to the schedule for two other teams.

You have to have seedings. The thought of the two best teams playing each other in the first round is repulsive. Take the eight best teams according to whatever formula. Everything tournament comes down to some kind of poll anyway.

[Skip]

Originally posted by SmedIndy
Why 32? 16 is plenty! There are too many freakin' bowls anyway... Yes, but if a playoff is going to happen there will have to be compromise - and one area this is key is the existing bowls. Any playoff would have to include the existing bowls, at least at first. If a few die off afterwards, so be it.

[sweaver]

Originally posted by SmedIndy
No, Sweaver, they're in I-AA and do not allow their teams to go to the playoffs.

They do in I-A basketball. Obviously, football is far different, but will some now I-AA conferences move up to get in on the playoffs? Marshall left the I-AA ranks to join the MAC after dominating the I-AA playoffs for several years, so I wonder if whole conferences will get caught up in the frenzy.

As a personal preference, I would go with rankings. You will get all the top teams that way. However, I would not be bothered by using conference champs with at-large bids, but I don't think the teams that make the playoffs would be much different either way.

[CpUltravox]

117 teams? Okay, we let the 11 highest ranked 1-AA teams into the big show, and each year 10 teams go down, and 10 come up. Like English soccer.

Each team plays 5 games for seedings. then boom. Single elimination, 128 team tournament. Navigate the gauntlet. Winner take all.

Seriously... I miss the old bowl set-up. I don't have a strong need to see who the national champion is - doesn't really concern me. All I want is for Ohio State to win the Big Ten and smoke Michigan, and then beat the Pac-10 champ in the Rose Bowl. That's all I care about. And most OSU fans feel the same way. Sure, we all want the big one.. but that set of circumstances is more satisfying than the pursuit of the national title.

In the end, the national champion doesn't mean a whole lot to me. For example... I remember every game of the Ohio State season that they finished #2 in a few years back. Including the smoking of Jake the Weasel Plummer and Arizona State in the Rose Bowl. We beat Michigan that year. I think we lost to Michigan State. I'm not sure who won the national title (Florida State? UCLA?).

I suspect there's a lot of college fans like me in college football.

[sweaver]

Looks like time to revive this, with BCS season approaching. There are three new bowls this year, for a total of 28, the most ever. That would accomodate a 29-team single-elimination tournament. I'll share a bracket for that after the final rankings come out.

[CpUltravox]

Even though we'll most likely going there anyway - I'd still prefer to know that if we win out, we're going to the Rose Bowl to play Washington State again.

BY the way, the BCS is working - if three teams finish undefeated, it is doing its job to objectively pair the two best.

[moose]

sigh. basketball and baseball can have long tournaments, but apparently football can't. :(. all about sponsorship

[sweaver]

You think college football couldn't get sponsorship? My friend, that would be a billion-dollar cash cow that would never stop mooing.

[CpUltravox]

Teams make more money off the current setup than they would over a tournament.

[TGwynn19]

I will never, ever be in favor of a system that requires a 18-21 year old to play 15-17 football games in one season.

[moose]

Originally posted by TGwynn19
I will never, ever be in favor of a system that requires a 18-21 year old to play 15-17 football games in one season. but 12 or 13 games are ok? :confuse2:

[sweaver]

Yeah, those kids in I-AA, D-II and D-III will never be the same.

CP, if there was a tournament setup, there would be far MORE money tossed around than there is now, at least in part because we wouldn't have the 6-5 team vs. the 6-5 team in the Nowhere Bowl, which only the most diehard fans care about.

[TGwynn19]

Originally posted by moose
but 12 or 13 games are ok? :confuse2:


Absolutely!! For the same reason no minor league team plays 162. Injuries.....from 12 to 17 is a 40% increase in games played...too much, IMO.

[sweaver]

Actually, injuries have nothing to do with why minor league baseball play about 140 game seasons. After all, the Pacific Coast League used to play upwards of 200 games a season. The reasons are weather and a desire to call hot prospects up in September.

High school teams that advance to the end of the playoffs already play 13, 14, 15 games a season. I don't see the argument, TG.

[TGwynn19]

Originally posted by sweaver


High school teams that advance to the end of the playoffs already play 13, 14, 15 games a season. I don't see the argument, TG.

You don't see it because you you are not looking for it. I don't think HS teams should play much more than 10 games a season. To say that all other levels play 15+ games and use that as a basis to defend the playoff system for D-I is wrong, IMO. I just don't think that football players of that age should be play a 5 month schedule.

[CpUltravox]

Originally posted by sweaver
CP, if there was a tournament setup, there would be far MORE money tossed around than there is now, at least in part because we wouldn't have the 6-5 team vs. the 6-5 team in the Nowhere Bowl, which only the most diehard fans care about.

Disagree. Or else, frankly, they'd do it.

If you had a 28 team tournament, they'd have to play 5 games to win it. So, no team can realistically play more than 10 games in a college season. Most teams play 12 or 13. Take Michigan (please) for example - They won't, or at least shouldn't make any "Tournament."

You think they would give up 3 home games of guaranteed sellouts of 110,000 people at 10-100 bucks a pop? These tickets go to big donating alumni. They're HUGE money makers. They, in a lot of cases, are why alumni donate big. No alumni living in Ann Arbor is going to give up the same cash to get the first crack at first round tickets to the Humanitarian Bowl. As for the rest of the teams... the Akrons, the Troy States.... they make more by scheduling extra home games, and away games against Nebraska-type teams for a cool half a mil then they would from any playoff. Few teams will give up 2-3 games and forefit that guaranteed money.

[moose]

Originally posted by sweaver
CP, if there was a tournament setup, there would be far MORE money tossed around than there is now, at least in part because we wouldn't have the 6-5 team vs. the 6-5 team in the Nowhere Bowl, which only the most diehard fans care about. i disagree. the random round of 8 game will have no title sponsor. it won't be the "Car Quest Round of 8, 3rd Pairing Game"

title sponsors are big bux

[sweaver]

Originally posted by TGwynn19
You don't see it because you you are not looking for it. I don't think HS teams should play much more than 10 games a season. To say that all other levels play 15+ games and use that as a basis to defend the playoff system for D-I is wrong, IMO. I just don't think that football players of that age should be play a 5 month schedule. OK, I can accept that argument, what I was disputing was what I believed to be a rejection of the idea because it wasn't done, when obviously it is. If you believe that the greater number of games is more likely to lead to injuries, I can't argue with you there.

Businesses in Huntington, WV are actually upset that Marshall moved from I-AA to I-A a few years ago, because Marshall was getting five home playoff games in I-AA, since they were hosting as well as playing in the championship. They had gone, basically, from 10 home games a year to 6, and the downtown stores were angry the move had cost them money.

CP, with a little rearrangement of the schedule, you can play the same number of regular-season games, and end the bowl season at basically the same time as it ends now. Remember, there's a considerable layoff between the end of the season (this year, Dec. 7) and the main bowl season. Dec. 14, 21, 28, Jan. 4, then 11, using just Saturdays. Eliminate the last weekend of the season (those conference championship playoffs) and we end up in the same place as now.

[sweaver]

Originally posted by moose
i disagree. the random round of 8 game will have no title sponsor. it won't be the "Car Quest Round of 8, 3rd Pairing Game"

title sponsors are big bux
It's still the "Carquest Bowl," or whatever, but now it has higher ranked teams than before, and higher ratings on the tube.

[CpUltravox]

I can agree with a 13-14-15 game season, but to play for the title, you're talking 17-18 games with a 5 week tournament.

I'm not sure I agree with THAT many games. I think the big difference here is that we're just arguing points that we don't agree to and aren't going to convince each other of.

[chrisfostermusi]

Sweaver,

your idea ALREADY surpasses the logic of the BCS.

Let em play. Everyone wins! The Bowls win, the fans win, college football wins! ........ well everyone except Miami wins. They will actually have to play some quality opponents.:D Sorry I couldn't resist!:D

[sweaver]

Since you've all been waiting (come on, somebody tell me they've been waiting!) here is a playoff setup for Division I-A football, based on the final BCS rankings (for the top 15 spots) and the AP (to fill out the bracket). Since there are 28 bowls this year, this is a 29 team, single-elimination tournament. The top three get byes in this bracket, since a 32-team tournament would flow the best.

Remember, this setup is only the product of my own fevered brain, and has no basis in reality. It is only to show what such a tournament MIGHT look like.

Round 1: December 14.

New Orleans Bowl: #4 USC vs. #29 Oklahoma State

GMAC Bowl: #5 Iowa vs. #28 South Florida

Las Vegas Bowl: #6 Washington State vs. #27 Tennessee

Hawaii Bowl: #7 Oklahoma vs. #26 Marshall

Motor City Bowl: #8 Kansas State vs. #25 LSU

Insight Bowl: #9 Notre Dame vs. #24 Arkansas

Houston Bowl: #10 Texas vs. #23 Pitt

Continental Tire Bowl: #11 Michigan vs. #22 Colorado State

Alamo Bowl: #12 Penn State vs. #21 Florida

Music City Bowl: #13 Colorado vs. #20 Virginia Tech

Seattle Bowl: #14 Florida State vs. #19 Maryland

Humanitarian Bowl: #15 West Virginia vs. #18 Auburn

Silicon Valley Bowl: #16 NC State vs. #17 Boise State

One rematch here that I see, in the Seattle Bowl. Otherwise, looks like some pretty interesting matchups. Now, for the rest, I will assume that the higher ranked team wins, although of course that won't happen all the time. Just to show, I will mark that team with an asterisk.

Second Round: December 21

Tangerine Bowl: #1 Miami vs. *#16 NC State

Independence Bowl: #2 Ohio State vs. *#15 West Virginia

Holiday Bowl: #3 Georgia vs. *#14 Florida State

Sun Bowl: *#4 USC vs. *#13 Colorado

Liberty Bowl: *#5 Iowa vs. *#12 Penn State

Peach Bowl: *#6 Washington State vs. *#11 Michigan

San Francisco Bowl: *# 7 Oklahoma vs. *# 10 Texas

Outback Bowl: *#8 Kansas State vs. *# 9 Notre Dame

And the next round, again assuming the highest-ranked team will win the previous game, with an asterisk to mark them:

Third Round: December 28

Cotton Bowl: *#1 Miami vs. *# 9 Notre Dame (OK, so I broke my own rules)

Gator Bowl: *#2 Ohio State vs. *#7 Oklahoma

Capital One Bowl: *#3 Georgia vs. *# 6 Washington State

Orange Bowl: *#4 USC vs. *#5 Iowa ---maybe this one belongs in the Rose!

Semis: January 4

Rose Bowl: *#1 Miami vs. *#4 USC

Sugar Bowl: *#2 Ohio State vs. *#3 Georgia

and the finale, January 11:

Fiesta Bowl: Miami vs. Ohio State (?????? or would it?)

[SmedIndy]

I still think you MUST guarantee a spot for every conference winner. North Texas was a good ballclub and the Sun Belt deserves to have a spot.

I sense that if the MAC, WAC, Mountain West, C-USA, and Sun Belt are treated like second class citizens, they could move to I-AA and all of the big time schools will wail and moan because they can't get enough I-A schools to play.

[pwdennis]

It strikes me that one of the biggest flaws with the current set up (either BCS or pre-BCS bowls) is that the length of time between the bowl game and the end of the regular season is such a variable. There were several seasons where either Miami or FSU lost "title" games to lesser opponents, in large part, due to rustiness. FSU typically has five or six weeks, which can be fatal to a passing team (not quite as big an obstacle for a running team)

If a playoff system is set up, I think that it should be done in conjunction with: (1) doing away with conference championship games, (2) evening out the schedules so there is no more than a one game difference in the number of games played by the teams. A few years ago BYU went 15-1 - no other team won more than 13 games that year so I suppose BYU really should have been crowned champion