Piazza & Co. - Opponents Runnin' Wild

[Max Power]

Saw this AM that Mike Piazza is two for forty-three - yes, 2 for 43, in throwing out baserunners this year, so far.

That's less than 5% - in a stat where 35% is average and anything less than 20% is considered real bad, normally.

For the record, last year, Piazza was at 16%.

Granted, it's not all on the backstop - - but, that's a reason to justify a mark around 20% - - not one that explains FIVE PERCENT.

Yesterday, Cliff Floyd was quoted as saying something like "We felt good in the game, every time someone reached, we knew they would be in scoring position within a couple of pitches."

Now, we all know Piazza can stick; but, is there a point where 5% becomes too much of a liability to play him behind the plate?

[poorme]

That point is when opposing managers figure it out and start running every time a man reaches first. Maybe in another five years or so. Opponents should have a higher rate of advancement on a steal than a sac bunt! Shh, don't tell Baylor.

[Max Power]

Originally posted by poorme
That point is when opposing managers figure it out and start running every time a man reaches first.

That's what the Marlins did yesterday - - I think they swiped 7 bases - 4 in one inning - if I remember right.

[SmedIndy]

How is Vance Wilson on throwing out runners. Some of it may be the pitchers.

[Max Power]

Originally posted by SmedIndy
How is Vance Wilson on throwing out runners. Some of it may be the pitchers.

He's nailed 8 out of 19 so far this year. That's a nice mark to have.

[sweaver]

Piazza may be moving to 1B soon whether he want to or not....

[Craig S.]

I've thought that Piazza should have been moved out from behind the plate a few years ago. Five percent is abysmal. Not only does it hurt your team, but it certainly can't be doing wonders for Piazza's confidence, either.

Piazza not only has a below-average arm, but he's slow to get out of his crouch and into throwing position. Moving him to first would allow the Mets to stress at least some level of defense at the catching position, and it would also help Piazza. His body would take less of a beating playing first, allowing him to play longer, and it will take the stress from catching off his mind.

[LeGrandOrange]

He's going to be playing in the American League VERY SHORTLY at this rate...I see him being Ted Simmons in the future...although if he's playing 3B, something is seriously wrong. :)
And it's 4 for 43, not 2. 9.3% still sucks.

[Max Power]

Originally posted by sweaver
Piazza may be moving to 1B soon whether he want to or not....

If the Mets are tuned into this, they should offer him to an AL team where he can DH most of the time and catch twice a week. In exchange, they should try and get an OF and another C. Just an example - - Piazza returns to So. Cal., say, with Jay Payton, to the Angels for Molina and Erstad.

Disney won't do that one, because of the salary.

Maybe Toronto for Fletcher and Jose Cruz? Again, the money is an issue.

There's not that many AL teams who need a DH who would be willing to pay Piazza's salary for it.

Maybe the Mets DO just have to bite the bullet on Mo Vaughn and move Piazza to 1B?

[Max Power]

Originally posted by LeGrandOrange
And it's 4 for 43, not 2. 9.3% still sucks.

My local paper, and I think ESPN, had 2, not 4. I think it's "throwing" which is the difference? Maybe he got the other "two" because they over-slid the bag or were caught in a run-down or something?

[Craig S.]

Originally posted by Max Power
Maybe Toronto for Fletcher and Jose Cruz

I think I once had a dream about such a trade being made. I'd especially like that if the Mets threw in 4 starters to go with Roy Halladay in the Jays' rotation.

[moose]

mo is WAY too productive to move piazza to first.

[SmedIndy]

Originally posted by Max Power


He's nailed 8 out of 19 so far this year. That's a nice mark to have.

Well, that answers THAT question.

The running game isn't that important, but you need to put up a token resistance....

[Duque]

Originally posted by moose
mo is WAY too productive to move piazza to first.

Either trademark moose sarcasm, or moose ventured too far into the Bizarro universe.

I wonder, though, if Big Mo might make a better gloveman than Piazza. Sure, Mo might take one or two steps off the bag now and then, but I am not imagining Piazza as being that agile.

[Max Power]

If I'm not mistaken, Piazza was a 1B in college and the Dodgers converted him.

[KCBOOMER]

The Marlins were totally disdainful of the Lieter/Piazza combination. The first guy is slow and the second guy can't throw.

[sweaver]

Originally posted by Duque
Either trademark moose sarcasm, or moose ventured too far into the Bizarro universe.
Me lose everything. Me am so happy.

I have to think that Piazza is bound to be no worse than Mo at 1B defensively, and likely better.

[moose]

Originally posted by Duque
Either trademark moose sarcasm, or moose ventured too far into the Bizarro universe.

It's me, feldman, from across the hall.

That was (trademark) sarcasm, but I forgot to add the ":D". I'm always riffing little sarcastic jokes in real life, and my use of that humor here at netshrine is pretty true to the "real life" me. I almost always add the ":D" unless it's blatantly obvious, since i've had too many bad misperception problems in the past.

this was actually not a case of me thinking it was blatantly obvious, just me forgetting :).

anyway, put mo in the dugout and piazza at first, and re-trade for fat pratt!

[gyb13]

Originally posted by moose
I'm always riffing little sarcastic jokes in real life, and my use of that humor here at netshrine is pretty true to the "real life" me. I almost always add the ":D" unless it's blatantly obvious, since i've had too many bad misperception problems in the past.
i hear you, dude....

Piazza should move....how about putting Vaughn at C? :D

[Skip]

Originally posted by gyb13

i hear you, dude....

Piazza should move....how about putting Vaughn at C? :D That could work. He could distract the batters by putting dollar bills in their waistbands. :)

[hmrsf]

Originally posted by Skip
That could work. He could distract the batters by putting dollar bills in their waistbands. :)


That is the funniest think I have read all day. Are you this funny all the time?

Instead of selling you my tickets, I am going to buy the seats near you just for the comedic value. :D

[moose]

Originally posted by Skip
That could work. He could distract the batters by putting dollar bills in their waistbands. :)
And they could distract him by carrying sides of beef up to the plate with them... :)

[TGwynn19]

Ok, Ok. All of you will be here all weekend-- and please tip your waitresses.


Now can we get back on topic please!:rolleyes:

[spitball]

Piazza was a third baseman in school and was converted.

This is ridiculous . Why does he insist on being a catcher.
He can hit .300 forever but there will always be a 'Yeah,but" whenever he's talked about in the future.
Move to 1st and dump Mo.

He's a stubborn dude and I respect what he wants to do but there comes a time in your life when you have got to give in.

[pathogan]

my perception is that in the NL they run more often,or more consistently ,than in th AL.If this is so[and I thought it was oneof the reasons fantasy players moaned when Kenny Lofton was traded to the Braves } the Piazzas problems would be less acute in the al. That said,he's not goping to move voluntarily,not with Maurice's large contract at 1B.{of the four cs, 2 were on pitchouts and one overslid the bag...}

[moose]

Originally posted by pathogan
my perception is that in the NL they run more often,or more consistently ,than in th AL.
I perceive the same thing, but i dont have any stats on me. i think that given pitchers hitting and no DH, there's a feeling of a "need to manufacture runs," hence the greater basestealing. actually, when torre took over the yanks in 96, i swear some teams actually seemed surprised when he ran in an NL-like fashion. then again, if that was so, everyone caught on real quick so any effect was negligible.

[sweaver]

Originally posted by spitball
This is ridiculous . Why does he insist on being a catcher.

Because after you've been a catcher, you are often loathe to give it up and give up all that action, being in the middle of everything.

People don't always want what's best, they want what makes them feel good.

[spitball]

Originally posted by sweaver

Because after you've been a catcher, you are often loathe to give it up and give up all that action, being in the middle of everything.

People don't always want what's best, they want what makes them feel good.
Yeah I know. I read the ESPN piece about his reasons for not giving it up and I can understand. But comes a time when you've got to take a look in the mirror. He's not a big league catcher defensively.
The Mets need his bat but he's giving up too many stolen bases and it off sets his offense. Time to wake up.

[VNV Nation]

I've felt that years Piazza was being selfish and hurting his team. HE wants to set all the catcher HR and rBI records.

But the problem is he wears down every year, late, and he can't catch. He has REFUSED to even buy a first baseman's mitt and learn how to play the position, even though the Mets had sorryass Todd Zeile there and desperately needed Piazza's bat in the lineup for more than 130 games.

the guy is a great great hitter but he's a primadonna and a crybaby and, I hate to bring up old stuff, but hundreds of batters get hit with pitches every year and there's only one I know of who ever held a midafternoon press conference about it.

[cubfan33]

Ok ... how much is it costing the Mets, in terms of runs, to have Piazza back there? Or, should we say, what is the defensive value of a Jason Larue type?

Let's go to the stats (courtesy: SBE and ESPN)
2001 stats:

Piazza: 7.49 RC/G, 22% CS (33/114)
Larue: 3.84 RC/G, 61% CS (27/42)

Now, let's look at what this means -

Piazza is worth 3.5 RC more than Piazza at bat, but how much does he give back? Of the 71 runners he allowed to stretch singles or walks into doubles, let's guess that half scored. That means Piazza gave up 35 extra runs! Larue gave up 7, but with his success, teams were loathe to run on him, meaning there may have been a net reduction in runs. I'm looking at extremes here, but I'm hoping someone better with stats than I am will do a better, more accurate analysis.

[VNV Nation]

traditional analysis would put the difference between the two at somewhere around 15-20 runs. that's a lot .

but you can never really be sure. that's 100 more times that the Mets opponents have a runner in scoring position. that takes away the mets' chance to neutralize the runner with a DP, and hitters do better generally with RISP, leading to worse things.

plus, runs scored via SB are generally more efficient and win-productive than other runs, as their time and place are more directly controlled.

look at what happened to the expos when Felipe told his pitchers not to hold runners on anymore.

[b-ball-lunachik]

Originally posted by VNV Nation
I've felt that years Piazza was being selfish and hurting his team. HE wants to set all the catcher HR and rBI records.

But the problem is he wears down every year, late, and he can't catch. He has REFUSED to even buy a first baseman's mitt and learn how to play the position, even though the Mets had sorryass Todd Zeile there and desperately needed Piazza's bat in the lineup for more than 130 games.

the guy is a great great hitter but he's a primadonna and a crybaby and, I hate to bring up old stuff, but hundreds of batters get hit with pitches every year and there's only one I know of who ever held a midafternoon press conference about it.

you know I liked Piazza as "a guy" a lot more before the last two weeks in NY...especially his comments after Saturday about it not being over, when he stood there all week before it saying it was already over...so I have to say I'm a little biased -- it bothers me that this guy constantly comes off as a media darling around here -- I'm not buying it...especially with what I think is a selfish attitude about continuing to catch...if this was somone less loved by the media here, he'd be ROASTED over the coals daily here for his refusal to even consider playing first base.

When they put up his numbers for throwing runners out this year during the weekend, I couldn't believe it -- I'll give him that he made a perfect throw to get Soriano on Sunday but at what point is this guy a liability behind the plate, and selfish:

Defensively broken down how I see this guy -- although I admit I don't watch a ton of Mets games so Met fans can correct me where I"m wrong:

-- Handles pitching staff fine.
-- Calls a decent game.
-- Throwing out baserunners -- awful
-- Is too injury prone -- and weak in the heat...leaving the game in Atlanta - - what if he was catching in Texas?
-- Makes every pop up an adventure -- that bellyflop on Sunday night was embarrassing.

Now, I realize he wants to set records as a catcher, but if hadn't been so adamant about not moving to first base, maybe Phillips doesn't go after Mo and that money is spent elsewhere -- why does it matter so much about setting them as a catcher -- he's already going to go down as one of the greatest hitters ever, why not give your team a better chance to win? I don't get this selfishness at all...if I were a Met fan, I'd be livid...

[KCBOOMER]

Maybe Piazza could play Left? There's noplace to move Mo unless you bench him.

[Skip]

Originally posted by KCBOOMER
Maybe Piazza could play Left? There's noplace to move Mo unless you bench him. You mean there's "no way to move Mo .... " Gravity, inertia, ... all that stuff. ;)

[nyyfanfrombirth]

I heard Piazza has no intention of moving to 1B because it's extremely important to him to have the record for most HR's by a catcher.

[VNV Nation]

I can understand wanting to catch and all that, but the guy HAS to be able to play 10-15 games a year at first. I mean, Mo can't play to begin with, and it would be an easy thing to just slip Piazza in there once a week, to give both a rest. His bat is too good to come out of the lineup as much as he does, I think that's been a major factor in the Mets' inability to catch the Braves.

It doesn't matter if he's catching, playing first or playing on the moon, you need your .310/40 homer guy in there.

[poorme]

Originally posted by nyyfanfrombirth
I heard Piazza has no intention of moving to 1B because it's extremely important to him to have the record for most HR's by a catcher.

selfish, selfish, selfish..

Since when does the player mandate where he plays? When the white sox moved fisk to left, he wasn't happy, but didn't cause a big stink. he went out there and did his best.