The 2nd Greatest of All Time?

[sweaver]

By overwhelming majority, Babe Ruth is the greatest player of all time. No surprise there. But who is the #2 guy? Cast your vote and state your reasons. If you like a guy not on this list, write him in and state why.

[SmedIndy]

Ty Cobb by a whisker over Honus.

Ty could have hit for power, but stuck to playing "scientific" ball in the 20's. And in the run-starved context of the teens, he was the king.

He may have blown past Hornsby's mark if he was in his mid to late 20's during that era.

And one shudders to think what he could have done in the 80's and 90's....

[WiredTiger]

I have to go with Ty Cobb. If he had played in the long ball era then he, not Ruth, might be known as the best player of all time. He was a mean SOB but he was awesome.

[moose]

Cobb. Lou is my fave all-timer player though. But, Cobb then Johnson.

It's ridiculous that Johnson is the only pitcher there. We should just leave pitchers off if we're going to insult them that way!! :D

[SmedIndy]

Originally posted by moose
Cobb. Lou is my fave all-timer player though. But, Cobb then Johnson.

It's ridiculous that Johnson is the only pitcher there. We should just leave pitchers off if we're going to insult them that way!! :D

Walter or Lefty are about the only that can go on this list, really.

[calexpat]

Mays.

The Cobb v. Mays debate has already been had, in the greatest CF thread, so I won't rehash it. Suffice to say that when you take defensive stats into account, virtually everyone agreed that Mays and Cobb were neck and neck statistically. Thus, you only have to give a small weight to the post-Jackie Robinson increase in competition in order to choose Mays over Cobb. Or to put it another way, you can only take Cobb if you give desegregation adjustments virtually no weight at all.

Personally, I give desegregation adjustments a medium-sized weight, which is what leads me to take Mays over Wagner.

Schmidt is intriguing, but in order to get that you'd have to weight his defense far higher than Willie's, which I can't do.

[KCBOOMER]

I'm going with the Dutchman. The Cobb/Mays thing is just too close.

Honus was a bona fide five tool guy. He could hit for average (.327 lifetime with 3415 hits), hit for power (101 HR is nothing to sneeze at in his time frame), run (722 stolen bases), field (best shortstop of his era) and throw (try being a shortstop and not be able to throw).

[TimmyB]

Maybe I'm being a :homer:... I picked Ted.

I can understand votes for Cobb, Wagner, Mays...

However, what Williams accomplished was incredible, all while missing 5 prime years to military service. I know here at Netshrine we don't count what coulda been. With Williams, you don't have to.
1st in OBA (.482), 2nd in SLG (.634), OPS (1.115), RCAA (1480), RCAP (1357), RC/G (12.96), OWP (.833), SEC (.552); 3rd in BB (2019), BPA (.690); 5th in RC (2540), ISO (.289); 6th in AVG (.344), 7th in HR% (6.76), tied for 11th in HR (521), EBH (1117); 12th in RBI (1839), 14th in R (1798), 17th in TB (4884), 28th in 2B (525), 60th in H (2654), tied for 61st in GIDP (197), 74th in PA (9789), tied for 86th in G (2292)

He set out to be "the greatest hitter who ever lived." Barring Ruth, he probably did just that.

[wyvern37]

Wagner.

He is an under-rated hitter because of the era he played in. He was the best defensive shortstop who ever played the game. He could play any position on the field competently (and did!)

[pwdennis]

Since I voted for Ted Williams in the original poll with Ruth second, and since I cannot vote in this poll for Ruth as the 2nd greatest of all time, I guess I'd better cast another vote for Teddy Ballgame - the greatest living ex-ballplayer (which has been true since he retired at the end of the 1960 season) !

[SmedIndy]

Originally posted by pwdennis
(which has been true since he retired at the end of the 960 season) !

I bet he wouldn't have lasted a minute on a snowy road near Lake Tahoe with Ty Cobb at the wheel! :D

[ChicagoDave]

Cobb is the #2 man. He was an awesome player.

There are a few old time players that I would love to see play today. Cobb, Ruth, Josh Gibson, Walter Johnson, and Hack Wilson. To name a few.

[pwdennis]

I don't know, SmedIndy.Teddy was plenty tough - to have piloted as many missions as he did and to survive a crash landing , I doubt that any ball player had more grit than the Splinter. Having survived two shooting wars and with his skills as an outdoorsman, I doubt that Ted had anything to worry about from Cobb or anyone else.

[SmedIndy]

Originally posted by pwdennis
I don't know, SmedIndy.Teddy was plenty tough - to have piloted as many missions as he did and to survive a crash landing , I doubt that any ball player had more grit than the Splinter. Having survived two shooting wars and with his skills as an outdoorsman, I doubt that Ted had anything to worry about from Cobb or anyone else.

You didn't see Cobb, the movie, did you???

It was also tounge-in-cheek....one thing Cobb could do that Williams didn't was run, and in Cobb's era it was a paramount skill to run and steal.

[TimmyB]

Originally posted by SmedIndy
You didn't see Cobb, the movie, did you???

I would venture a guess that while Cobb was doing road slolam in Tahoe, Williams was diligently (and quietly) working on becoming "the Greatest Fisherman Who Ever Lived."

One other thing...
Cobb = Coca~Cola
Ted = Moxie

For many reasons here, I have to concede the edge to Cobb...

[Skip]

I voted Cobb (I think). Tomorrow it'll be Wagner. The next day Mays. Then Cobb again. To me it's that close between those three.

[moose]

Originally posted by TimmyB
One other thing...
Cobb = Coca~Cola
Ted = Moxie

Which reminds me - Bill "the Spaceman" Lee = RC Cola :D

[Skip]

Does that make Nolan Ryan = Big K Cola?

We now return to the topic at hand ....

[sweaver]

My vote to Wagner. An incredible talent, capable of playing any position well, and such a tremendous hitter, plus a fine teammate.

[KCBOOMER]

How did Aaron, Cobb, Mantle, and Hornsby get in this poll? In our "Who was the Best at" for each position these guys didn't win their own position. How can they be the best of all time???

[sweaver]

Wagner, Cobb and Williams, with Mays trailing. Very close. Anybody else?

[calexpat]

BTW, the baseball survivor website, which started with 100 players and eliminates one per week, has 4 guys remaining:

Bonds
Mays
Ruth
Wagner

Williams just got voted off, Cobb was right before him. The site is
http://www.concentric.net/~jkubatko/baseballsurvivor/

[Skip]

I've been keeping up with the Baseball Survivor site too. I was curious how long they'd let Cobb last; it was longer than I expected. I also thought they'd keep Williams longer than Bonds. Based on the final four, I predict it ends up
1. Ruth
2. Mays
3. Wagner
4. Bonds

I'd flip two and three though.

[Fuzzy Bear]

Originally posted by wyvern37
Wagner.

He is an under-rated hitter because of the era he played in. He was the best defensive shortstop who ever played the game. He could play any position on the field competently (and did!)

I'm going with Honus, with only mild reservations. A shortstop who could hit like him, and be, reportedly, the best athlete in baseball during his time, gets my vote.

Ask me in 10 years about Alex Rodriguez.

[gyb13]

RCAA RCAA
1 Babe Ruth 1771
2 Ted Williams 1480
3 Ty Cobb 1369
4 Lou Gehrig 1247
5 Stan Musial 1207

RUNS CREATED RC
1 Babe Ruth 2910
2 Ty Cobb 2757
3 Stan Musial 2641
4 Hank Aaron 2556
5 Ted Williams 2540

RUNS CREATED/GAME RC/G
1 Babe Ruth 13.14
2 Ted Williams 12.96
3 Dan Brouthers 11.94
4 Billy Hamilton 11.55
5 Lou Gehrig 11.21

[pwdennis]

Originally posted by gyb13
RCAA RCAA
1 Babe Ruth 1771
2 Ted Williams 1480
3 Ty Cobb 1369
4 Lou Gehrig 1247
5 Stan Musial 1207

RUNS CREATED RC
1 Babe Ruth 2910
2 Ty Cobb 2757
3 Stan Musial 2641
4 Hank Aaron 2556
5 Ted Williams 2540

RUNS CREATED/GAME RC/G
1 Babe Ruth 13.14
2 Ted Williams 12.96
3 Dan Brouthers 11.94
4 Billy Hamilton 11.55
5 Lou Gehrig 11.21

Does add weight to the argument that it's Ruth, Williams and then everyone else. TW is 5th in runs created but everyone above him except Ruth played a minimum of 700 more games.

As far as weighting the pre & post segregation arguments remember that in Ruth's time ALL of the top athletes went into baseball so the effect of integration as been largely to refill the pool rather than improve it. While athletes today are better than in Ruth's time , that would be true whether or not integration had occurred - look at the success the Soviet Union and East Germany's (largely)white athletes had in Olympic and other international competion against the rest of the world.

[pwdennis]

In looking at the survivor votes, there was considerable variation in the voting:

APRIL 4, 2002
(Grove voted off the island)

Lefty Grove 73

Stan Musial 62
Mickey Mantle 48
Hank Aaron 38
Ty Cobb 21
Barry Bonds 19
Ted Williams 10
Willie Mays 10
Honus Wagner 3
Walter Johnson 1

April 11, 2002
(Musial voted off the island)


Stan Musial 77

Hank Aaron 49
Mickey Mantle 48
Ty Cobb 23
Barry Bonds 22
Walter Johnson 19
Willie Mays 17
Ted Williams 16
Honus Wagner 14

April 18, 2002
(Aaron voted off the island)


Hank Aaron 70

Mickey Mantle 56
Barry Bonds 31
Ty Cobb 28
Ted Williams 26
Walter Johnson 25
Willie Mays 25
Honus Wagner 24

April 24, 2002
Mantle voted off the island)


Mickey Mantle 61

Ty Cobb 44
Barry Bonds 43
Willie Mays 38
Ted Williams 37
Walter Johnson 33
Honus Wagner 29

Up to this point there is always more sentiment to bounce Bonds from the island than there is to bounce Williams or Mays. Then we come to

May2, 2002
(Johnson voted off the island)


Walter Johnson 46

Ty Cobb 43
Ted Williams 42
Barry Bonds 41
Willie Mays 33
Honus Wagner 32
Babe Ruth 3

What happened ? My belief is that with the opening of the 2002 season, and Bonds being seen nightly on ESPN Sport Center and on Fox Sports, that Barry re-entered the conscious minds of the voters. After all, Barry was seen nightly, Williams and Mays mystic figures read about in old sports pages. Shortly thereafter Bond overtook Mays. The voting for this ended June 6, 2002. Ted Williams died July 5, 2002 and was all over the sports media. Had this voting been held three months later, it is very probable that Teddy would have been voted off the island AFTER Bonds and Mays.

A classic case of the old "out of sight, out of mind"

[sweaver]

Originally posted by pwdennis
Does add weight to the argument that it's Ruth, Williams and then everyone else. Sure, offensively. Defense counts too, and Ted wasn't very good at that.

You bring up a point about why I don't like the "Survivor" style voting. I'd rather go the other way, figure out who is best and then work down. It seems much fairer.

[JamesI]

Honus for second best ever.

[pwdennis]

Originally posted by sweaver
Sure, offensively. Defense counts too, and Ted wasn't very good at that.

You bring up a point about why I don't like the "Survivor" style voting. I'd rather go the other way, figure out who is best and then work down. It seems much fairer.

Ted was adequate defensively and by all accounts became very good at playing the wall in Fenway. It would take an awful lot of defense to overcome the margin Ted had on offense. Perhaps if Mays were a shortstop who fielded like Ozzie Smith or Luis Aparicio

[chainlink]

Since Mantle was left entirely off the first "Greatest" poll, I will plug him here.

If greatest means doing the most to help a team win championships by creating runs, then Mantle has to be considered the best since blacks and whites have been sharing the same field.

At his best in the 50's and early 60's he was clearly more efficient at creating runs than Mays.

I think a good argument can be made that Barry's 2001 and 2002
seasons were better than Mantle's 56' and 57' seasons,
but I would also argue that Mantle dominated both leagues for more years than Bonds has.

Willie's (and probably Barry's) defensive superiority are not enough! And what about those 7 rings???

[sweaver]

Originally posted by chainlink
And what about those 7 rings??? Well, Mickey did have excellent taste in teammates......

Were I to post this poll again, I would put Barry Bonds on the list. And I would vote for him. You can make a case for Ted Williams, but you either have to give him a lot of credit for seasons missed on military duty, or discount defensive differences.

[pwdennis]

Originally posted by sweaver
Well, Mickey did have excellent taste in teammates......

Were I to post this poll again, I would put Barry Bonds on the list. And I would vote for him. You can make a case for Ted Williams, but you either have to give him a lot of credit for seasons missed on military duty, or discount defensive differences.

Even crediting Ted with only the average of his 42 & 46 seasons for his missing seasons puts Ted on top in career RBI Runs & BB at the time he retired (and I suspect that his best seasons had yet to be seen) - a clear #2. Also you seem to be overstating the TW's defensive liabilities - the concensus was that Williams was an average outfielder

[chainlink]

Do you really feel that Mantle had a better overall supporting staff
than Mays had?

The one consistant thing in of all those winning years in New York was Mantle. Berra got old, and Maris isnt a hall of famer, and was never feared or pitched to like Mantle even in 61'.

I would never argue this point concerning Williams - probably the second (or maybe first) greatest hitter ever.

Similarly, Bonds hasnt had the best of support, but he must have had something because he has gotten to the post season a few times, and the one productive post season he had, he almost won it all! I would make the claim that if Bonds had been a great or even good post season performer, he may have acquired some hardware by now.

How many times have you heard this: "How many rings would Willie Mays have if he were on the Yankees?" Thats a fair question. One might also ask what Mantle's on-base percentages might have added to the supporting cast on the Giants.