Knuckleballers

[WiredTiger]

Why doesn't every team try to develop a few knuckleballers? Over the years there have been some fairly successful knuckleballers and they help a team so much. The have great career longevity and they can pitch a ton of innings. It would seem to me that this would be a skill that could be taught.

[poorme]

Funny, I was thinking about this this morning. It's been in my mind since watching Steve Sparks pitch a nice game. The answer is obvious and it's the same answer to numerous other questions: Baseball owners and GMs are short-sighted and conservative. It might take 4-5 years and a few hundred thousand bucks to bring several pitchers through a knuckle ball "program", without a guarantee of success. Of course those same owners will drop $100 million on a star who is a "sure thing" like Hampton or Brown.

As an aside, have any really outstanding teams featured a knuckleballer? I'm thinking 70s Dodgers with Chuck Hough, but was he a dedicated knuckler at that time?

[Skip]

I too have wondered about this. Great topic for a thread.

How long would it really take to develop a knuckeball? Pitchers talk about picking up a slider or whatever over an off season, would it really take years to get a knuckler? Why dont more guys whose stuff just isnt cutting it work on a knuckler just to prolong their career?

[poorme]

Originally posted by Skip
I too have wondered about this. Great topic for a thread.

How long would it really take to develop a knuckeball? Pitchers talk about picking up a slider or whatever over an off season, would it really take years to get a knuckler? Why dont more guys whose stuff just isnt cutting it work on a knuckler just to prolong their career?

I suspect it would take at least a couple of years of throwing nothing but knuckleballs to get the hang of it. A guy like sparks has been throwing it for a long time and has finally seemed to "master" it. In my youth, I picked up a curve pretty easily, but could never throw a knuckle ball. There was a kid in high school who could do it, but heaven forbid the coach to let him try it in a game.

[LeGrandOrange]

Wakefield's been on two playoff teams where he has played a major part in regular season success. They weren't "outstanding", but they were playoff teams.
I miss the knuckleball...then again, I also miss blooper pitches as well. The knuckler makes Sparks the kind of pitcher everyone wants, a guy that consumes innings, and still pitches a halfway decent job. Wakefield has made himself into the ultimate swing man with his pitch, the Red Sox appreciate this. Wakefield doesn't but he's used to it to where it's almost second nature for him.
Perhaps the problem with knuckleballers is the fact that...well...they don't have a set role, and they aren't considered for roles when general managers are looking for a call to arms.
Is Jared Fernandez still in the Reds organization? He's almost becoming the pitcher's equivalent to Roberto Petagine and the other examples of wasted minor leaguers that always get strewn about He's a good pitcher...but he throws a knuckleball. Go to AAA, Do Not Pass Go, Do Not Collect $200,000.

[boot2112]

Bill James actually has some interesting thoughts on this topic in the new Baseball abstract. I don't want to mis-quote him but it was something along the lines of: "Basesball people" today would rather have a below average player doing thing in the "conventional" manner than a slightly above average player doing things "unconventionally". I guess when a guy throwing 90 gets lit up it is easier to watch than when a knuckle ball pitcher blowing up. I think a knuckle baller can be particularly valuable as an inning eater that can make the rest of the staff more effective. I pitched in high school and my coach would not let me throw a knuckleball. I played in colleg but did not pitch. My Jr. year we were on our spring trip and our staff was completly whiped. The coach asked for a volunteer to pitch the final 6 innings against a very good team (we were down 14-1). I went in and thew about 85% knuckleball (my "stuff" would have been killed) and only gave up one run the rest of the game. I never pitched again. It is discrimination!!!

[gyb13]

It might take more time to develop than 'picking up a slider in the off-season.' The more successful knuckleballers today (sparks, wakefield) seem to have really only come to their own at a later age......(though that could also have something to do with the 'conventional' baseball minds preventing their success earlier in their careers)

[WiredTiger]

Originally posted by gyb13
It might take more time to develop than 'picking up a slider in the off-season.' The more successful knuckleballers today (sparks, wakefield) seem to have really only come to their own at a later age......(though that could also have something to do with the 'conventional' baseball minds preventing their success earlier in their careers)
It seems knuckleballers get to the bigs later in life because they once were regular old pitchers who changed after they couldn't cut it.

It would be a grat pitch for a kid to learn. What are the odds of having a major league arm? What are the odds if you throw a knuckleball but don't have a mjor league arm? I would think the latter would be much more likely.

[LeGrandOrange]

As Charlie Lau would say, "There are two ways of hitting a knuckleball. None of them works." (Or words to that effect) Nobody expects a knuckler these days, it'd be a hell of a pitch to use in today's game.

[spitball]

Originally posted by poorme
Funny, I was thinking about this this morning. It's been in my mind since watching Steve Sparks pitch a nice game. The answer is obvious and it's the same answer to numerous other questions: Baseball owners and GMs are short-sighted and conservative. It might take 4-5 years and a few hundred thousand bucks to bring several pitchers through a knuckle ball "program", without a guarantee of success. Of course those same owners will drop $100 million on a star who is a "sure thing" like Hampton or Brown.

As an aside, have any really outstanding teams featured a knuckleballer? I'm thinking 70s Dodgers with Chuck Hough, but was he a dedicated knuckler at that time?
Charlie Hough was a reliever/spot starter for the Dodgers,yes.
And yes he was a full blown knuckleballer.
I was bummed out when the Halos let Sparks get away.
Same goes for Dennis Springer.
I love throwing the knuckleball.When you really bust off a good one it's a great feeling watching it dance around and then just die.
I was playing catch with a buddy and surprised him with a floater. Almost made him a soprano. Now ya see it. Now ya don't.

[tenkevcardinal]

Its probably because Joe Morgan would say they aren't "intimidating" enough.

[sweaver]

A long time ago, say the 40's and 50's, a knuckleball was used almost like a change-up, and a lot of pitchers used one as an extra pitch. These days, only Mussina does, as far as I know.

I, too, think knuckleballers can be successful pitchers. But such things are usually discouraged.

[Ytown Tribe fan]

James also wondered why a struggling pitcher didn't try it just to save his career. I wonder the same thing.

The universal conclusion seems to be that "real" pitchers either throw heat or have great sliders; the knuckelball isn't "manly".

Maybe it isn't, but it sure can be effective. George Brett always said that he hated seeing a knucleballer in the middle of one of his hot streaks -- it almost always lead to a slump.

Pitching is destroying a hitter's timing more than anything else.

[spitball]

Mussina actually throws more of a knuckle-curve. It has a top spin that causes it to fall off the table. Burt Hooten was a master of the knuckle-curve.

[LeGrandOrange]

You don't need high octane gas to get hitters out...Jamie Moyer can tell you that. He only gets to 99 on the radar gun if it's a French radar gun. :) (It'll say it's 99 km, it's really about 80 or so...you can't trust French numbers...heh.) You know, I'd love to see him uncork a LaLob to get some unsuspecting fool at the plate. :) Actually, I'd also like to see him try a knuckler.

[Skip]

Is anyone aware of any articles or interviews (esp. with coaches) on knucklers and why pitchers seem to be discouraged from using one? (I mean besides the James comments already referenced)

[SmedIndy]

There's a section in the Diamond Appraised where Wright and House discuss knuckleballers. I'll blow the dust off of it at some point.

[Fuzzy Bear]

I believe that having a knuckeball as part of one's repretoire of pitches was not an unusual occurrance in the early part of the 20th century.

I believe that part of the prejudice toward knuckleball pitchers stems from the fact that they tend to pitch for losing teams. This, according to Bill James, is because a losing team will give a knuckleball pitcher chances that a winning team won't. Tom Candiotti and Charlie Hough are prime examples of this. Wilbur Wood, too.

Phil Niekro was, at least in the 2nd half of the 20th century, the first full-time knucklballing starter. Before him, knucklers (including Niekro) were viewed as relievers. (Bob Tiefenauer is the prime example of this.)

Pitching coaches and managers have prejudices against anything that is easy, or easy on the arm. Knuckleballs. Submarine pitchers. Underhanded pitchers. Extreme sidearmers. They'll love a guy who throws a splitter who is likely to be Dr. Frank Jobe's best friend and patient sometime next year, but scoff at a guy who can be effective without putting strain on his arm (Tom House disease?). Perhaps, given the economics of the game, creative owners (an oxymoron?:D ) will insist that these prejudices be forsaken for the sake of the team coffers.

[poorme]

Originally posted by Fuzzy Bear
This, according to Bill James, is because a losing team will give a knuckleball pitcher chances that a winning team won't. Tom Candiotti and Charlie Hough are prime examples of this. Wilbur Wood, too.


For anyone not familiar with Wood's career take a look at his stats.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/w/woodwi01.shtml

Between 1971 and 1975 this guy was unreal. 48 starts???

[gyb13]

I think their prejudice stems from two words of 'baseball knowledge': "throw strikes!"

[SmedIndy]

Originally posted by poorme


For anyone not familiar with Wood's career take a look at his stats.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/w/woodwi01.shtml

Between 1971 and 1975 this guy was unreal. 48 starts???

You could do it with a knuckleball.

The bad thing is that Smilin' Chuck Tanner tried to do it with Bahnsen and Kaat as well....

[hmrsf]

I am a huge Wakefield fan. Back in the day when they let us bring in sports bags, I would carry a huge bottle of TUMS (500 count). I would pass them out to our section whenever Wakefield entered the game.

We either saw unhittable balls or rockets off the opposing teams bats. Either way it was like living on the edge. I like it, but many of my fellow fans can't stand it. Take lots of antacids and hold on for the ride.


Oh****** hot tip for bringing stuff in the ballpark. If you carry everything in a clear bag (like the kind you have for the news paper) they let you in. Borderline big purses still a no no.*****

[Fuzzy Bear]

Originally posted by gyb13
I think their prejudice stems from two words of 'baseball knowledge': "throw strikes!"

If Wilbur Wood threw a soft, floating, tempting pitch that a hitter couldn't resist, and a batter swung at the pitch and missed because, at the last minute, it broke down into the dirt, isn't that a "strike"? :D

[Skip]

Originally posted by Fuzzy Bear
If Wilbur Wood threw a soft, floating, tempting pitch that a hitter couldn't resist, and a batter swung at the pitch and missed because, at the last minute, it broke down into the dirt, isn't that a "strike"? :D Of course your point makes sense, but since when was that the issue. By "throw strikes" the implication is always in the zone. The fear is that otherwise the lack of control supercedes the efficacy of the pitch on the batter. This is understandable somewhat, but I really believe it could be proven incorrect if enough knucklers were allowed to do their stuff. They may never be Randy/Pedro/Greg 18-2 type pitchers, but they can be solid 2-3-4 pitchers for years and years.

[spitball]

A good season for a knuckleballer is .500.
You want innings and they can give them to you.
If you get a 10 and 10 season or 15 and 14 that's brilliant for a knuckler.
O.K stat dudes , what was Phil Neikro's career record?
Hoyt Wilhelm? ....etc.

Start Final Jeapordy theme music.

[Duque]

Originally posted by spitball
A good season for a knuckleballer is .500.
You want innings and they can give them to you.


Yeah, I would think the best spot for a knuckleballer in today's game would be that 6th starter/long reliever that's been specialized by guys like Miguel Batista or Ramiro Mendoza. A guy with a rubber arm who can go every day, and pitch in a blowout to save some of your other pitchers.

[Duque]

Originally posted by Skip
Is anyone aware of any articles or interviews (esp. with coaches) on knucklers and why pitchers seem to be discouraged from using one? (I mean besides the James comments already referenced)

Here's a piece I dug up with Wakefield and Niekro talking a little about it:
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/features/1998/weekly/980803/bb0803/c.html

Mainly because of the time involved, I would think, and the fact that very few, if any, knuckleballers are drafted. Most are converted.

[moose]

Originally posted by Duque


Yeah, I would think the best spot for a knuckleballer in today's game would be that 6th starter/long reliever that's been specialized by guys like Miguel Batista or Ramiro Mendoza. A guy with a rubber arm who can go every day, and pitch in a blowout to save some of your other pitchers.
given the way mendoza has been pitching, the yanks could use a long reliever :mad:

[SmedIndy]

Originally posted by spitball
A good season for a knuckleballer is .500.
You want innings and they can give them to you.
If you get a 10 and 10 season or 15 and 14 that's brilliant for a knuckler.
O.K stat dudes , what was Phil Neikro's career record?
Hoyt Wilhelm? ....etc.

Start Final Jeapordy theme music.

Records are team dependent, and Wilhelm was a reliever for most of his career, so his W/L record is worthless as an indicator of value.

Phil was 318-274. His support neutral record was 337-255 and with a little luck he could have won 350 games.

Wilhelm was 143-122 with 227 saves. His Support neutral record according to Lee was 180-85. Talk about BAD luck.

Wilbur Wood was 164-156, but with normal luck he would have been 185-135, with three 25+ win seasons in a row.

Retraction in order???

[satchel]

Originally posted by Skip
Is anyone aware of any articles or interviews (esp. with coaches) on knucklers and why pitchers seem to be discouraged from using one? (I mean besides the James comments already referenced)

Not quite what you are looking for, but a significant chunk of "Ball Four" is about this. Jim Bouton spent the 1969 season trying to reinvent himself as a knuckleballer. He worked on it constantly, to the dismay of his pitching coaches and bullpen catchers. In the course of the book he tells many stories about the resistance he met from coaches who wanted him to get his heater and slider back, even though he was having success with the knuckler and every time he threw a slider he "felt like an alligator was biting my elbow." He also talks quite a bit about the technical side of throwing the knuckler, what makes it roll over and turn into a fat, slow, straight meatball.

[TGwynn19]

How can a knuckleball pitcher be more of an inning eater than a flame thrower?? If the knuckler is not working he will not be in the game, same as the flame thrower not finding the plate. Sure it is easier on the arm, but if you are not effective you will not be in the game.

[SmedIndy]

Originally posted by TGwynn19
How can a knuckleball pitcher be more of an inning eater than a flame thrower?? If the knuckler is not working he will not be in the game, same as the flame thrower not finding the plate. Sure it is easier on the arm, but if you are not effective you will not be in the game.

Well...if you stink in one game, a manager can trot you out in long relief quickly the next game.

You can easily start on short rest if need be.

Wilbur Wood used to start 40 to 45 games a year, and only a liner off the kneecap stopped him.

[spitball]

Originally posted by SmedIndy


Records are team dependent, and Wilhelm was a reliever for most of his career, so his W/L record is worthless as an indicator of value.

Phil was 318-274. His support neutral record was 337-255 and with a little luck he could have won 350 games.

Wilhelm was 143-122 with 227 saves. His Support neutral record according to Lee was 180-85. Talk about BAD luck.

Wilbur Wood was 164-156, but with normal luck he would have been 185-135, with three 25+ win seasons in a row.

Retraction in order???
I don't know if I need to retract as much as say " Thanks for the info."
And , yeah what I meant by inning eaters is that they can go out there every day if needed.Thanks for clarifying. :grad:

[Slippery Pedro]

Cool link if you want to throw a few:

http://www.cis.syr.edu/mame/simfluid/redder/baseP.html

[WiredTiger]

Originally posted by SmedIndy


Records are team dependent, and Wilhelm was a reliever for most of his career, so his W/L record is worthless as an indicator of value.

Phil was 318-274. His support neutral record was 337-255 and with a little luck he could have won 350 games.

Wilhelm was 143-122 with 227 saves. His Support neutral record according to Lee was 180-85. Talk about BAD luck.

Wilbur Wood was 164-156, but with normal luck he would have been 185-135, with three 25+ win seasons in a row.

Retraction in order???

It seems like a lot of knuckleballers are unlucky! I wonder if this goes back to the bad teams have nothing to lose by giving opportunites to knuckleballers scenerio.

[Skip]

Originally posted by WiredTiger
It seems like a lot of knuckleballers are unlucky! I wonder if this goes back to the bad teams have nothing to lose by giving opportunites to knuckleballers scenerio. That is my impression. Still dont get it though. Even if you have a good staff of traditional "stuff" pitchers, why wouldnt you want a middle reliever with a knuckler for those occurrences when the starter has a bad day. Knucksie could come in and totally screw with the lineup that was teeing off on the standard stuff. Eat innings, have as good a chance as anyone of stopping the scoring, and give the team (especially today) a chance to come back. And this is only one scenario ....

[spitball]

Originally posted by Skip
That is my impression. Still dont get it though. Even if you have a good staff of traditional "stuff" pitchers, why wouldnt you want a middle reliever with a knuckler for those occurrences when the starter has a bad day. Knucksie could come in and totally screw with the lineup that was teeing off on the standard stuff. Eat innings, have as good a chance as anyone of stopping the scoring, and give the team (especially today) a chance to come back. And this is only one scenario ....
The only thing is , I wouldn't ( if I were managing ) feel too good about bringing in a knuvkler if there was a runner on 1st or 2nd in a tight game because not only would it mess up the hitter's rhythm it could really mess with a catcher's mind .

[digger]

I wonder if the percentage of innings pitched by knuckleballers changes when more emphasis on the running game occurs. I wonder if Brock, Henderson Raines etc are responsible for today's decline.

[boot2112]

Originally posted by digger
I wonder if the percentage of innings pitched by knuckleballers changes when more emphasis on the running game occurs. I wonder if Brock, Henderson Raines etc are responsible for today's decline.

Interesting point. If you take that one step further do knuckleballers have grater value in peroids of high run totals than they would in a peroid of low run totals? In an era with less scoring small ball (stealing etc.) is more important than it is in say the 20's or today. In that case the inherient difficulty k-ballers have with the stolen base would be a larger burden to overcome. It the Earl Weaver dream world where nobody runs and teams go toe to toe k-ballers may have more value. Lord knows the White Sox could have used one last night.

Maybe we will see a rebirth of the knuckleball. I doubt it because I am not sure if there is a more pigheaded, sef-rightous, grop of know it alls than the fraternity of so called "baseball men". For what ever reason once you get into this group you are never expelled and the only way in is to agree with the establisment.

[poorme]

Originally posted by boot2112

Maybe we will see a rebirth of the knuckleball. I doubt it because I am not sure if there is a more pigheaded, sef-rightous, grop of know it alls than the fraternity of so called "baseball men". For what ever reason once you get into this group you are never expelled and the only way in is to agree with the establisment.

Well said. Except for Billy Beane.

[TreAnt985]

Originally posted by poorme


I suspect it would take at least a couple of years of throwing nothing but knuckleballs to get the hang of it.
Did anyone else notice the pun (or whatever it is)?
Get the 'hang' of throwing knuckles?
Just had to mention that:D

[TGwynn19]

Originally posted by digger
I wonder if the percentage of innings pitched by knuckleballers changes when more emphasis on the running game occurs. I wonder if Brock, Henderson Raines etc are responsible for today's decline.

I doubt it. If you have a pitcher in your system and he is effective you will bring him up no matter what. I doubt any team has not called up a pitcher because he had a terrible rate of holding runners.

[pwdennis]

The White Sox had an interesting bullpen in the mid-to-late 60s comprised of an ancient Hoyt Wilhelm, and a younger knuckleballer by the name of Eddie Fisher. Fisher was the alpha horse at the time but both could give hitters (and catchers) ulcers.

My real concern with knuckleballers as relievers was the risk of wild pitches and passed balls. It seemed to me that you would want the knuckleballer to either start the inning or come in with no more than a runner on first

[sweaver]

That's how closers are used these days, anyway.

I have thought, for that reason, that knuckleball pitchers were best used as starters. But, they are useful as mop-up guys because the pitch is thrown with little strain, so a guy like Wakefield or Sparks could theoretically pitch 300, 400, even 500 innings with little or no ill effects.

[cubfan33]

This one is near and dear to my heart ... after blowing out my shoulder and seeing my never dominating mid-80's fastball go to the low 70's and completely make my slider and changeup worthless, I was lucky enough to learn a knuckler. I was used as a slop reliever - all those times we were ten runs behind, ten runs ahead, and any time we needed an innings eater to save the bullpen or fix an injury.

Why don't we see more knucklers in the majors? Here's some reasons...

1. The pitch is not taught at the lower levels. Every little leaguer can throw a curve, but I'll bet not 1 in 1000 can throw a knuckle. I taught one to a decent 14 yr old and he dominated.

2. The pitch is difficult. Not only does it take about a year to master (and I'd guess more for a major league level knuckler), the pitcher must have phenomenal mechanics. In Tom House's book, he mentioned several times that Charlie Hough had the best mechanics he ever saw.

3. The knuckler isn't sexy or safe. A scout can say "the kid throws 95" and even if he doesn't pan out, no one's going to say the scout screwed up. A knuckler, even if you found one in HS or college, is not going to be an easy sell. There's not even a good adjective for it ... you hear of blazing fastballs, filthy sliders, knee-buckling curves, but what do you call a knuckler? Fluttering is about the best I've ever heard.

4. History shows the knuckler as a "failure" pitch. Most knucklers learned the pitch after not being good enough with more standard fare. There's never been a pitcher that has mixed in a knuckler with a normal repertoire. Imagine if Curt Schilling lost a couple mph off his fastball and developed a knuckler. He could come with 90mph gas, follow it with a 72 mph slider, and a 52 mph knuckler. If the batter isn't tied in knots by then, gas after a knuckler looks EVIL. I once had an opposing batter complain about me throwing 90 to strike him out ... on the gun, it was 71.

[WiredTiger]

Originally posted by TGwynn19


I doubt it. If you have a pitcher in your system and he is effective you will bring him up no matter what. I doubt any team has not called up a pitcher because he had a terrible rate of holding runners.

Also it seems that most knuckleballers make sure that they have a good move to first. It seems like that is part of the package with a knuckleballer.

[WiredTiger]

Originally posted by cubfan33

3. The knuckler isn't sexy or safe. A scout can say "the kid throws 95" and even if he doesn't pan out, no one's going to say the scout screwed up. A knuckler, even if you found one in HS or college, is not going to be an easy sell. There's not even a good adjective for it ... you hear of blazing fastballs, filthy sliders, knee-buckling curves, but what do you call a knuckler? Fluttering is about the best I've ever heard.
I think this is one of the major problems when it comes to scouting. Everyone is a sheep just following the herd. It's part of the reason the Astros have been so successful in grooming pitchers is because they were willing to do something different a draft short pitchers.