Gutless

[BuzzBuzzard]

From today's NY Times. This has nothing to do with giving Mussina rest. It has everything to do with keeping Clemens out of the rotation when the Yanks come to Shea. Wussies.

June 1, 2001

Mussina May Get Extra Rest


Mike Mussina could pitch Monday against Boston's Pedro Martínez for his third consecutive start, but Yankees Manager Joe Torre raised the possibility Wednesday that he might give Mussina an extra day of rest and pitch him Tuesday against the Baltimore Orioles, his former team.

Mussina threw 106 pitches in beating Martínez on May 24 and 120 in losing to him Wednesday, in games in which there was little margin for error and every pitch was high-adrenaline. "It takes a lot out of you," Torre said.

Torre may also want to give Mussina a break from the difficult task of facing Martínez, although Torre said nothing specifically to that effect.

If Ted Lilly pitches Monday instead of Mussina and the Yankees' rotation falls in line without injury over the next few weeks, then Roger Clemens will not pitch against the Mets in Shea Stadium on June 17. As the Yankees' schedule would then fall, Mussina, Lilly and Orlando Hernández would pitch the three games in Shea on June 15-17.

:bigbarf:

[NetShrine]

For the record, I saw Mussina on Wed - - and he completely ran out of gas. He even walked 3 (albeit partly to some bad calls) in his last inning - - which is more than he's been walking in 3 starts combined coming into the game. Therefore, the extra rest thing has some validity.

Then again, the Clemens thing has a point too - - he did not do well a few years back in his first Fenway appearance as a Yank (v. Pedro). Roger just gets too psyched up. He was completely out of it.

These two points made - - Buzz, is one man's "gutless" another man's "smart handling of your players"?

[BuzzBuzzard]

Originally posted by NetShrine
These two points made - - Buzz, is one man's "gutless" another man's "smart handling of your players"? Not fully buying into the Mussina is tired thing, but it does give Joe and out in terms of setting up his rotation so that Roger doesn't have to pitch in Shea. In fairness to Joe, that is a smart managerial move. I think this is what we all expected to happen. There was no way he was going to be stepping into the box.

From a Mets fan perspective, though, there is some unsettled business that we may never get a chance to finish. No need to rehas the events of last season as to was it intentional or not, but I want my shot at revenge and will be denied. That is not a pleasant feeling. Very one-sided.

[NetShrine]

Originally posted by BuzzBuzzard
From a Mets fan perspective, though, there is some unsettled business that we may never get a chance to finish. No need to rehas the events of last season as to was it intentional or not, but I want my shot at revenge and will be denied. That is not a pleasant feeling. Very one-sided.

This happened, and you were born, too late. Just think, you could have been the Stones to recording "Satisfaction."

Mets had their shot at "revenge" - - last October. They should have won.

A. Bunker says "Revenge is the best way of getting even." ;)

I, and some others, say "Winning is the best way of getting even." :thumb:

[BuzzBuzzard]

Originally posted by NetShrine
Mets had their shot at "revenge" - - last October. They should have won.

A. Bunker says "Revenge is the best way of getting even." ;)

I, and some others, say "Winning is the best way of getting even." :thumb:

Winning the Series would not have settled the score. The two issues are unrelated, from the Mets fan perspective (yes, I am speaking for all 5 of us Mets fans). Trust me on this, the Clemens/Piazza thing reversed and you would be singing a different tune. Don't hand me a line of that diplomacy crap.

[NetShrine]

Take this approach - - it came to me once I reversed it, as requested - - what's better?

Hitting Clemens and "settling the score"? Thus, giving this closure for you. Or,
Having it remain the same - forever? Thus, giving you the chance to call the Rocket (or Yanks) gutless for the rest of your life?

Can't have both. Once the score is settled, both teams are equal. You have to pick one or the other.

It's almost the same as getting sex and chasing after sex, no?

[BuzzBuzzard]

I take option 1 and be done with it.

[BuzzBuzzard]

As I went for another cup of coffee I realized there is another important point to this. It is not a Met/Yankee thing. Had Clemens wore anything other than pinstripes, I'd be just as emotional over this. I don't care if he pitched for the Twins, my feelings would be the same. The fact that he was/is with the Yankees is truly secondary to the issue, from where I sit.

[Jen]

I have to agree with Net, Moose looked like he he was about ready to start gasping for air during his last game. Sure, it's unfortunate and we'll miss a great show, I'd love to see Clemens pitch at Shea, but only because I want to see him dominate the Mets again.

[ChrisCary]

Buzz,
I'm not judging you and I take what you say to be the truth, but you and I both know that for alot, if not most people that have issue with this thing it has to do with it being a Met/Yankee thing.

I also want him to pitch their and bat their and get it over with.

I said already that I take everything the Yankees tell the press with a bit of salt and read into it a little.
And while this time their may be a lot to read into, Mussina has gone 8 and then 9 innings in a row against Pedro, it's exhausting to just watch.
Compounded with El Duque's shoulder/heel/toe/father problems the Yankee rotation is far from set, certainly a Met fan can see how this happens
In fact the rotation has been pushed back and forward and turns skipped already.

I have questions:

Would the Mets definetly plunk him?
WOuld it be a managers call or players call?
Would it be a group thing or an individual pitchers decision?
Which pitcher is more likely to do it?
Are there any starters that would refuse to do it?
Does it make a difference that the Mets are as far back as they are?
TO the players?
To the fans?

What would happen if they didn't plunk him?
What if he hit one out?
Went 3-4?

[BuzzBuzzard]

Maybe I am the one-off person, but I truly do not believe it to be a Met/Yankee thing. That adds fuel to the fire, no doubt, but it would be burning anyway.

My issue with Mussina is that he is a starting pitcher. Just because he has pitched 17 innings in his last two starts does not give him an 'out' by claiming to be tired. I just can't accept that. I will recognize, though, that going against Pedro twice in a row is more taxing than 17 innings against any other pitcher. And what does 1 day of rest really give him?

Would the Mets definetly plunk him? Yes

WOuld it be a managers call or players call? Both

Would it be a group thing or an individual pitchers decision? Group

Which pitcher is more likely to do it? Does not matter. It would be whoever was watched up against him.

Are there any starters that would refuse to do it? Don't think so.

Does it make a difference that the Mets are as far back as they are? Again, don't think so. Maybe even encourages since a suspension does not cost them anything now.

TO the players?

To the fans?

What would happen if they didn't plunk him? It would probably end it because the option was their and it was not exercised.

What if he hit one out? Odds on that are not high since he's had 14 career regular season ABs. Don't think it is worth debating.

Went 3-4? Disappointment. Depends of the impact on the game. 3 for 4 that had no influence is meaningless. 3 for 4 with a couple RBIs and no knock down and Met fans are not happy.


At the end of the day, regardless of what happens in terms of him getting plunked, I think it all ends after the situation arises. Without the opportnuity, the situation festers.

[ChrisCary]

BUzz,

THanks for the answers, one more.

You say the Yankee/Met thing isn't the driving issue (I don't think you're the only one)
Why is it different than Payton getting it in the head in the playoffs or is it?


Either way, I agree that Clemens should pitch and hit at Shea is there is any way he can.

Oops, one more question.

What if Clemens gets plunked by, let's say, Leiter and the Leiter gets it between the lip and gum?

It's get pretty ugly fast, huh?
Clemens gets as hot as they come in a big game.

[BuzzBuzzard]

Answer to follow up #1: Primary reason is because there is a huge difference between what Piazza means to the Mets and what Payton means to the Mets. Secondary reasons are that I am not convinced Payton was hit on purpose where I am that Piazza was and the Payton thing has a legitimate chance to work itself out. The Mets in all likelihood will face that guy again whether it in Shea or Busch. Also, Clemens has a rep for doing this so it is kind of assumed guilty before being proved innocent.

Answer to follow up #2: I only give that a 50/50 chance of happening, at best. I really think that what happens is Clemens gets beaned, there is a bench clearing brawl and everyone at that point has wiped the slate clean. Tit for tat and done. Maybe I am naive on this point, but that is how I think it goes down.

[willyg]

Net is correct, winning is the best way of getting even. The Mets had a chance last year to get back at Roger, get back at the Yankees, take baseball back in New York.

They didn't.

Roger absolutely dominated them.

If this were the other way around Leiter or Hampton drilling Jeter in the head, I would be pissed as hell.

I honestly cannot figure out why you want to see Roger pitch at Shea so bad? He hit Piazza in the head, it was last year, it is time to move on.

The bigger issue here is the fact that the Mets are 13 in back of the Phillies (ugh!), and cannot beat anyone.

Torre was the same guy who started Roger against Pedro in Boston during the ALCS. There were ways around that, he didn't take them. He will try not to start Roger at Shea but he will not go out of his way not to make it happen.

[BuzzBuzzard]

Originally posted by willyg
I honestly cannot figure out why you want to see Roger pitch at Shea so bad? He hit Piazza in the head, it was last year, it is time to move on.
As I said to Net, if the situation were reversed, would you honestly still feel this way?

[NetShrine]

Two points - - -
1. Agreed Buzz, I see your point - - if it was the Mets/A's, I know you would feel the same way - - but, fact of the matter is, it is the Yanks and Mets - - therefore, by logic, it is a Met-Yank thing, no? OK......

2. I still say that blood lust is exciting - - but, once you're covered with blood, some times it's less thrill and more shame. Be careful what you wish for..........

[BuzzBuzzard]

Originally posted by NetShrine
Two points - - -
1. Agreed Buzz, I see your point - - if it was the Mets/A's, I know you would feel the same way - - but, fact of the matter is, it is the Yanks and Mets - - therefore, by logic, it is a Met-Yank thing, no? OK......
I was no philosophy major, but that is some funky logic. I think you are stretching it a bit. It is a fine distinction at best, but I still maintain it is a Mets/Clemens thing. Let me put it this way. If Clemens had gone to the Rangers this year, my feelings about retaliation would be just as strong. I honestly don't feel that because he is/was with the Yankess influences me on the matter. Hightens, yes. As I said, a little fuel on the fire.