Double X.

[Skip]

I wonder about Jimmie Foxx. Seemed to be Ruthian for a while but fell off dramatically in his early/mid 30s. Could have easily broken Ruth's single season HR record while still young. I've read about his decline being blamed on sinus conditions, alcoholism, and just inexplicable luck. However, I wonder if he'd busted 60 back in the day, regardless of career totals, how much do you think Ruth's legacy might be diminished today?

[Slippery Pedro]

Ditto what if Hank Greenberg popped 60 - he had a shot at it until they stopped pitching to him.

[pathogan]

Originally posted by Skip
I wonder about Jimmie Foxx. Seemed to be Ruthian for a while but fell off dramatically in his early/mid 30s. Could have easily broken Ruth's single season HR record while still young. I've read about his decline being blamed on sinus conditions, alcoholism, and just inexplicable luck. However, I wonder if he'd busted 60 back in the day, regardless of career totals, how much do you think Ruth's legacy might be diminished today?

Foxx played in great hitters parks, though he was tremendously strong[before weights and creatin}I dont think Ruths legacy would be diminshed,though Roger maris might be more of a historical footnote.
mostly it was booze, i'm afraid...funny how he's often forgotten when talking about great great power hitters...and who is this SLIPPERY PEDRO, and why does he get all these cool avatars?????????????

[KCBOOMER]

If Rabbits had shotguns dogs wouldn't chase them.

[SmedIndy]

Ruth would still be Ruth. XX got close, but Ruth had the media presence as well. Even in that day, that accounted for a lot of his mystique.

[Slippery Pedro]

Originally posted by KCBOOMER
If Rabbits had shotguns dogs wouldn't chase them.

Oh, that's a keeper. :thumb:

Pat - - - 2000 posts and you too can have the avatar of your choice!

[Skip]

Originally posted by SmedIndy
Ruth would still be Ruth. XX got close, but Ruth had the media presence as well. Even in that day, that accounted for a lot of his mystique.
But I still wonder, particulary mid-century with the great players and teams and rivalries, etc. then, whether if Ruth didnt have the mystique of the '60' (even with all of his other more relevant records) if he might have shrunk back toward mortality. '60' was THE mythical number for all that time; and it was probably during the mid-century that the baseball mythos of the past really cemented itself in the sports consciousness.

[SmedIndy]

Originally posted by Skip

But I still wonder, particulary mid-century with the great players and teams and rivalries, etc. then, whether if Ruth didnt have the mystique of the '60' (even with all of his other more relevant records) if he might have shrunk back toward mortality. '60' was THE mythical number for all that time; and it was probably during the mid-century that the baseball mythos of the past really cemented itself in the sports consciousness.

You may be partially right, but Ruth's reputation fit the 20's. He was a living excess, as you know. He was a great trencherman and quite Garvey-esque with the fairer sex, and prohibition didn't seem to faze him. THAT is what made Ruth outside of baseball. The 60 thing was probably because it was a nice round number.

[pathogan]

Originally posted by SmedIndy


You may be partially right, but Ruth's reputation fit the 20's. He was a living excess, as you know. He was a great trencherman and quite Garvey-esque with the fairer sex, and prohibition didn't seem to faze him. THAT is what made Ruth outside of baseball. The 60 thing was probably because it was a nice round number.

I always thought that 714 was the
mythical number with Ruth.that passed and his stature grows...

[pathogan]

Originally posted by Slippery Pedro


Oh, that's a keeper. :thumb:

Pat - - - 2000 posts and you too can have the avatar of your choice!

yeah, but when will I have time to watch all those games...oops, thats another thread

[Craig S.]

Originally posted by Skip

But I still wonder, particulary mid-century with the great players and teams and rivalries, etc. then, whether if Ruth didnt have the mystique of the '60' (even with all of his other more relevant records) if he might have shrunk back toward mortality. '60' was THE mythical number for all that time; and it was probably during the mid-century that the baseball mythos of the past really cemented itself in the sports consciousness.

I think you've got a great point here. I know that the Babe was famous for much more than his on-field exploits, but that number was around for a long time that it was impossible not to think "60" every time you heard Ruth's name. Same goes for the media coverage up until 1961, when "60" was always presented as some kind of Herculean achievement, like he'd cleaned the Augean stables instead of just hitting a lot of homers.

The media loved guys like Babe because they were much easier stories with their carousing than a "serious" alcoholic like Jimmie Foxx, so I think that had a big influence on his status. And it may have also had to do with the fact that when he came along, he didn't just break the home run record - he lapped the field. Besides Lou Gehrig, I don't think anyone even hit more than 45 in a season during the '20s (correct me if I'm wrong), which is pretty amazing.

[Slippery Pedro]

Originally posted by Craig S.
Besides Lou Gehrig, I don't think anyone even hit more than 45 in a season during the '20s (correct me if I'm wrong), which is pretty amazing.


1920-1929

HOMERUNS YEAR HR
1 Babe Ruth 1927 60
2 Babe Ruth 1921 59
T3 Babe Ruth 1920 54
T3 Babe Ruth 1928 54
T5 Babe Ruth 1926 47
T5 Lou Gehrig 1927 47
T7 Babe Ruth 1924 46
T7 Babe Ruth 1929 46
9 Chuck Klein 1929 43
T10 Mel Ott 1929 42
T10 Rogers Hornsby 1922 42
T12 Babe Ruth 1923 41
T12 Cy Williams 1923 41

[pathogan]

Originally posted by KCBOOMER
If Rabbits had shotguns dogs wouldn't chase them.

that one's great, I 'd never heard it before...

[Duque]

Diminish Ruth? Maybe a little bit. But Ruth was the first of his kind, a trendsetter, whereas Foxx did most of his work in the middle of a great offensive era.

[KCBOOMER]

The only good years Foxx had were when he had Geena Davis catching.

[pwdennis]

I think the point is valid about the Ruthian mystique. At the time Ted Williams retired in 1960 the all time homerun list read Ruth 714, Foxx 534, Williams 521, Ott 511, Gehrig 493, Musial 439.

Had Foxx taken better care of himself and lasted a few more years to get his homerun totals into the 600s or WW2 and Korea not stripped 150+ home runs off Teddy Ballgame's totals, the Ruthian total of 714 would not have seemed so awe inspiring. At the end of the 1960 season a total in the 300s would have placed a player in the top ten homerun hitters - WW2 probably prevented DiMaggio,Greenberg & Mize from reaching the 400s and ultimately may have prevented Musial from reaching 500

Ruth was not only first out of the block as a great home run hitter, but circumstances prevented the next generation of sluggers from mounting any kind of charge at his career totals

[Baudib]

60 really was the magic number.

In the first Historical Abstract, Bill James alludes to a number of articles from the '30s, '40s, and '50s discussing Hank Greenberg, or Ted Williams, or Ralph Kiner, or Willie Mays and their chances of breaking "Ruthsrecord."

He notes that there was no explanation nor any confusion; that although Ruth held dozens of amazing, important records, *60* seemed to capture the public's imagination. Partially because Ruth himself thought it was so significant; Ruth had set the career mark for homers years earlier and it was generally assumed no one would ever come close to that. But the chase for 60, the legend of the 1927 season, created a mythical aura around *60*. So, too, did the constant challenges it faced; several hitters had, at one time or another, been on pace to hit 60, but ultimately failed. In the 1950s, there was usually someone hitting about 50 homers, so 60 was just tantalizingly out of reach.

[SmedIndy]

But if Foxx would have slammed 60 in 1932, then I still say Ruth would have this aura about him.


One thing about Foxx, he's listed as 6-0, 195 pounds. That's small compared to players now. Heck, that's my size (before I dropped 15), but I'm sure that where I have leftover beer and popcorn he had muscle.