Barry and The Media This Year

[NetShrine]

Barry Bonds is on pace for close to 80 HRs this season. If he's close to breaking the McGwire record, say, in September - how do you think he'll do with the media pressure?

[Jen]

He'll snap like a twig. :D

Aaawww, who knows, really. I think I'd like to see him snap like a twig, though. Nothing against him, just like to read something exciting in the papers for a change.

[NetShrine]

Half of me says he'll almost purposely back off, in order to divert the glare. (I think Griffey did this too one year he was close.)

The other half thinks he'll just lock in - - since perhaps he feels the HR title will be the icing on the cake in terms of defining his greatness.

I've seen Barry have some big Septembers when he was close to 30-30 in the past. Almost seems like he can turn it on when he wants.....

[Jen]

Originally posted by NetShrine
Half of me says he'll almost purposely back off, in order to divert the glare. (I think Griffey did this too one year he was close.)

The other half thinks he'll just lock in - - since perhaps he feels the HR title will be the icing on the cake in terms of defining his greatness.

I've seen Barry have some big Septembers when he was close to 30-30 in the past. Almost seems like he can turn it on when he wants.....

I don't understand why anyone would back off, what's the point behind that?

Yes, I agree, it would be the cherry on top of defining his greatness. :rolleyes:

And if he can turn it off and on, again, WHY would he back away?

I want to see him go for it and snap like a twig. :D Fall just short of the brass ring. That's tragedy.

[BuzzBuzzard]

I am with you, Jen, as to the backing off thing. I can't imagine a pro athlete wanting to do that. Does not add up for me.

As for how Barry would react, it is tough to tell. He could actually channel the hostility into breaking the record. Who knows? He's got a lot of dingers to hit, yet, before we start thinking about this seriously. The thing with projections is that before he hit 6 in the last three games, we'd still be talking about Gonzalez, not Bonds.

[NetShrine]

Originally posted by Jen
I don't understand why anyone would back off, what's the point behind that?

Originally posted by BuzzBuzzard
I am with you, Jen, as to the backing off thing. I can't imagine a pro athlete wanting to do that. Does not add up for me.

Backing off takes off the stress/media. I wish I had Griffey's month-by-month HR/BA totals for 1997. I'm pretty sure they would show that he was on track to break it - and then it seems like he was more into BA than HRs. Maybe I'm wrong? Just seem to remember this being the case.

[BuzzBuzzard]

Originally posted by NetShrine
Backing off takes off the stress/media. I wish I had Griffey's month-by-month HR/BA totals for 1997. I'm pretty sure they would show that he was on track to break it - and then it seems like he was more into BA than HRs. Maybe I'm wrong? Just seem to remember this being the case. Tough to prove, no? And where is the glory in not breaking records? I find it hard to believe that it is commonplace for professional athletes to trade off stress for the record books.

[NetShrine]

Not commonplace - I never said that.
Just that those who don't want the spotlight - the Marises, Griffeyes, and perhaps Bondses - may be more inclined to, perhaps, let's say, not be too disappointed if it doesn't happen for them. ;)

This a better way of saying it?

[BuzzBuzzard]

Yes and I still could not disagree more.

[jpalexa]

Originally posted by NetShrine
Half of me says he'll almost purposely back off, in order to divert the glare. (I think Griffey did this too one year he was close.)

Add this to the mix: Bonds had the opportunity to break the two-game *and* three-game HR records this Sunday in Atlanta, but he sat out his last plate appearance opportunity. The way he was locked in and the way balls were flying out of Turner Field on Sunday, you would have thought that a player with a chance to make this kind of history would have refused to have come out of the lineup (I don't know if this was MGR Baker's decision, or if it was Bonds').

A fan that was with me at the time offered that she had heard that Bonds absolutely despises setting records when his teams are losing (the Braves were up 11-5 on the Giants at the time). Interesting if true.

(Also note that the Atlanta fans gave Barry a standing ovation when he hit his second homer on Sunday -- very un-Atlanta-like -- both in being able to recognize it and in being able to give it up for a guy perceived by many as a jerk.)

Oh, and if Bonds could "turn in on" when he wanted, I doubt his October numbers would suck so bad.

[NetShrine]

Originally posted by jpalexa
Oh, and if Bonds could "turn in on" when he wanted, I doubt his October numbers would suck so bad.

Well, obviously, there's a difference between post-season and meaningless (play out the string) Sept games. :D

Interesting comment about setting records in losing games. That is so unBonds-like.

[nyy26wc]

Originally posted by jpalexa


Add this to the mix: Bonds had the opportunity to break the two-game *and* three-game HR records this Sunday in Atlanta, but he sat out his last plate appearance opportunity. The way he was locked in and the way balls were flying out of Turner Field on Sunday, you would have thought that a player with a chance to make this kind of history would have refused to have come out of the lineup (I don't know if this was MGR Baker's decision, or if it was Bonds').

According to Baker, he (Baker) was the one who made the decision and he didn't know Bonds had a chance at a record.

I got pissed off when I saw Bonds being taken out of the game, since I'm a big Bonds fan & wanted to see if he could become the 1st player ever with back to back 3 HR games.

[BuzzBuzzard]

Originally posted by NetShrine
Interesting comment about setting records in losing games. That is so unBonds-like. In what context? I'm not sure if you are taking another shot at him or not?

[NetShrine]

Oh, it's a shot all right.
Meaning that Barry cares about:
1. $
2. Personal Stats
3. Team Results
4. Fans/Media
.......in that order, IMHO.

[jpalexa]

Hell, if the lame-as$ Atlanta fans knew it was a record, you'd think MGR Baker -- or somebody in the Giants dugout (like, oh, say, BARRY BONDS!) would have known! These things don't come along everyday...it is not inexcusable that Bonds sat, but it certainly was puzzlingl....

[BuzzBuzzard]

Originally posted by NetShrine
Oh, it's a shot all right.
Meaning that Barry cares about:
1. $
2. Personal Stats
3. Team Results
4. Fans/Media
.......in that order, IMHO. Is it possible that his intentions were more positive. Maybe what Bonds was trying to say was that individual achievement means nothing in a team sport. In all seriousness, what kind of record is the two-game and three-game HR record? Is it something that significant to hold? I don't think so.

[NetShrine]

Originally posted by BuzzBuzzard
what kind of record is the two-game and three-game HR record? Is it something that significant to hold? I don't think so.

When you're in the walk year of your contract, it couldn't hurt.

[jpalexa]

Originally posted by BuzzBuzzard
<snip>... And where is the glory in not breaking records? I find it hard to believe that it is commonplace for professional athletes to trade off stress for the record books.

Originally posted by BuzzBuzzard
<snip>... what kind of record is the two-game and three-game HR record? Is it something that significant to hold? I don't think so.

Depends on which side of the fence you're on...! ;)

Obviously the records are obscure -- I doubt any of us knows who holds the records now. It just seems that if you have a chance to break a record -- however menial -- that you'd at least take a shot at it.

If Bonds is serious about individual achievements being hollow without team success, I wonder if he'd be that way if his teams *had* success? Either way, I don't buy it. Right or wrong, my perception of Bonds is that he is a jerk and a prima donna who is all about Barry. I hardly think I am alone in this perception. Makes him hard to warm up to. Like Rickey.

Hey, I have never had dinner with the man, so I don't know really *how* he is. For all I know, Cal is about Cal -- simply sustaining The Streak could be evidence of that. But what I hear and see and read about Cal is much more gracious and classy than Barry's rep. Bonds has certainly done nothing to endear himself with the fans or the media. Not that he needs to in order to be a great ballplayer -- but he *does* need to make an effort if he wants to be liked. I just don't get the feeling that he cares either way.

[NetShrine]

Perhaps he learned from his God Father?

Look at the numbers that Willie Mays put up. Factor in the great defense. Yet, baseball fans gush more about Kirby Puckett than Say Hey. Why? Willie was surly - still is. Put Mays' numbers and legend on the face and personality of Mookie Wilson and there would be a Mookie bar out there today, at the least. What do we do to celebrate Mays? Nada.

[jpalexa]

(Man! The guy hit *another* dinger tonight! Like him or hate him, he's in the ZONE!)

That's an interesting insight into Willie Mays that I wasn't aware of, but it certainly helps explain why Mickey's name is usually used first in most of the "greatest player of all-time" discussions.

I wonder how Bobby Bonds was perceived? Maybe it is a "family" thing.

At any rate, it is a shame. But, just like Darryl Strawberry, these guys are just people. Put 25 random people together, you're bound to get one jerk. I'll be every team has one....

[NetShrine]

Father Bobby played for 8 teams in 15 years - - two of his best seasons were '75 (Yanks) and '77 (Angels), and they both had him move on the following season. Hmmm......

[BuzzBuzzard]

A slight change in direction, but if the Giants stay in the hunt this year,which they should, there is no way they are going to trade him. Do they sign him as a FA in the off-season? I'd bet he'd going to command 3 years at $70M.

[NetShrine]

I think you're dead on at the price. If they don't sign him - - Mets or Yanks will.

[jpalexa]

$23M+ per year for a 37-year-old...even someone of Bonds' offensive caliber? I am not so sure about that....

[BuzzBuzzard]

Come on, JP. He's showed no sign of slowing down. He's $20M plus, easy.

[jpalexa]

I should have clarified. No way he (or anyone) is WORTH $20M+ per year. But no doubt some idiot owner/GM will sign him for that.

Actually, Barry Bonds *is* slowing down -- his stolen bases and putouts are declining, and he seems (just to me) a little more injury-prone. $20M+ per year is an awful lot of money for a DH. See my arguments in the Manny Ramirez thread...!

[jpalexa]

More on Barry's perspective of winning vs. personal achievements...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thursday May 24 3:31 AM ET
Bonds' Streak, Giants' Skid Ends
By BEN WALKER, AP Baseball Writer

Barry Bonds was more than fine with making it into the win column rather than the record book.

Bonds' home-run streak came to an end Wednesday night, though he hit an RBI single as the San Francisco Giants beat Arizona 5-1 to stop a three-game losing streak.

"We won. That's all that matters," he said.

Bonds had connected in six straight games, setting an NL record with nine homers in that span. A home run at Bank One Ballpark would have given him the major league mark for a seven-game period.

The Giants, however, had lost five of six during Bonds' spree.

[baseballtodd]

Barry Bonds will not wilt or shy away from the media. But, I sure don't expect him to handle a possible record-chasing experience with the grace and manner in which Mark McGwire did in 1998. If Bonds breaks McGwire's record and hits 71 or more homers this year, good for him. But, I would rather not see him do it because Bonds, Ken Griffey, Jr., Juan Gonzalez, etc. are not my kind of baseball heroes. They do not appreciate in the least what the fans do for the game. We help pay their salaries and we buy the stuff that they endorse. Players like Bonds seem to expect all the stuff that comes to them - mainly money. What they don't realize is that they are very lucky to be in the position they are. They are gifted athletes. Hard work and desire only gets you so far; if you can't hit a 90-mph fastball and a curveball that drops off the table, you can't do it no matter how hard you try. Bonds and others have this ability and they seem to forget that. It's always me-me-me. Also, they have no appreciation for the game's history except in instances where they are the benefactor. For example, if breaking a record could make Bonds another million or so, he's apt to be aware of it and capitalize on that. But, if the sheer breaking of a record means that you'll be mentioned in the same breath as Ruth, Cobb, Mantle, Mays, etc., he doesn't care or want any part of it. It's all about the God-almight dollar these days. I'm sick of it. So, here's hoping Bonds doesn't break McGwire's record. He will be a Hall of Famer and I will admire him for his ability. But, until today's players like Bonds start showing a little humility, I root against them.

[BuzzBuzzard]

Well said.

[jpalexa]

Agreed. There is absolutely nothing wrong with acknowledge a guy's skills and accomplishments on the field and still thinking he is a jag-off of a person. It is when people think the two MUST go hand-in-hand (as Bonds seems to think!) that there is discord.

Jim Rome (don't get me started) was ranting (hard to believe) about people bitching about Bonds. Romey doesn't seem to make the distinction that Baseball Todd so elegantly pointed out above. Or maybe he's just doing the sports radio thing...!

[NetShrine]

Is this crazy?

I have no problem withe the Bonds and Rickeys of the world setting records - and I even root for them (despite the fact that they are HUGE jerks) because their level of play is SO FAR ahead of the rest of the pack.

It's the jerks that are good or very good - but not immortals like Barry and Rickey - that I cannot root for, like Canseco, Sheffield, Wells, Benitez, Bonilla, Belle, Sierra, etc.

And, of course, I never have any problem rooting for the good-not great "good" guys like - Edgar, Vizquel, Grace, etc.

[jpalexa]

No, it is not crazy. On the contrary, it shows me that you "get" it.

[mainsr]

Jeez, Netshrine, I take some time off to deal with work (where I suppose one could say I spend my time worshiping the almighty dollar) and I see you dumping on my man Barry! A few observations:
1. Yes, the guy's a jerk, but I think it's way off base to say he cares about money uber alles. I have a lousy memory, but I don't recall him insisting on a contract rewrite after each successive record-breaking deal elsewhere. Also, a guy who really cares about money would not be so surly with the press. A guy I know in Baltimore hates Cal Ripken because the man hawks every product he can get his hands on. That's a guy who cares about money. Moral: Bonds doesn't care primarily about money, and caring primarily about money isn't necessarily a bad thing.
2. Mays became surly only later in life. In the Fifties and, he was generally regarded as Mantle's superior by a wide margin. (Rob Neyer had a column to this effect recently.) Yes, I know that Bill James thinks that's hogwash, but so be it. And don't you think that Mantle might be revered because he's (1) a Yankee, (2) dead, and (3) white, while the Say Hey Kid goes 0-for-3.
3. I think we know how Bonds would deal with the media pressure of a pursuit of 70. He'd wouldn't talk to reporters!
4. I adore Kirby Puckett, but I don't think you'll find a baseball fan over the age of 45 (or a serious fan who's younger) who would say he's anywhere near the player Mays was. The people who do are the same imbeciles who voted for Nolan Ryan over Lefty Grove and Walter Johnson or Ozzie Smith over Honus Wagner last summer.
5. As for Bonds padding his statistics in meaningless September games: Didn't we go back and forth on this recently? There is no question that pretty much every year the Giants have made the playoffs, they've made it on the strength of Bonds carrying them on his back through September. Dredge up those numbers I sent you.
6. If Mark Grace is your idea of a class act, after he left Chicago the way he did, I've got a Baltimore Ravens team photo you'd revere.
I've got to go take my blood pressure medicine, man. You really got me going.

[NetShrine]

Originally posted by mainsr
Jeez, Netshrine

Hey - I'm a fan of Barry's - - at least of his production. By no means was I trying to bash.

Man, I hope those pills work for you :D - - Grace leaving Chitown? Hey, they didn't offer him a contract - or only offered him a one-year deal (can't remember which?). Nothing class-less on his part - - basically, he was "told" to go elsewhere.

[jpalexa]

Boys, boys. Easy now. I'm buying you both cold beers! :beer:

We are losing sight of the fact that the guy can be a great ballplayer and a jerk -- at the same time!

We are also losing sight of the fact that a guy can have great regular season numbers and weak post-season numbers -- again, at the same time!

This, in a nutshell, is Barry Bonds. Ty Cobb was an a$$hole, too, but he was one of the best players ever. Mays had great regular season career stats, but was weak in the post-season.

So, the "great guy, great attitude, great regular season stats, great post-season stats" conglomerate award doesn't go to Bonds. So he gets a "great regular season stats" award only. That is an accurate assessment of the man and the player. Period.

And you know what? I don't think he even cares either way.

[NetShrine]

Originally posted by jpalexa
I don't think he even cares either way.

For sure. BTW, thanks for the brew. :D

[mainsr]

Hey, wait a sec, I'm not giving up on Grace. I don't care HOW he left. I'm talking about him yapping on the way out, about how Hee Seop Choi is a joke and will have Cubs fans crying for their aging balding singles-hitting first baseman instead of a young slugger who hits home runs more than once a month. Whoops, I'm losing it...Grace verbally trashed his former employer, and his likely replacement, when he left the Cubs. That spells classless to me.

[NetShrine]

Originally posted by mainsr
Hey, wait a sec, I'm not giving up on Grace. I don't care HOW he left. I'm talking about him yapping on the way out, about how Hee Seop Choi is a joke and will have Cubs fans crying for their aging balding singles-hitting first baseman instead of a young slugger who hits home runs more than once a month. Whoops, I'm losing it...Grace verbally trashed his former employer, and his likely replacement, when he left the Cubs. That spells classless to me.

I don't think Grace took a shot a Choi - - more so, the Cubs, who stated they'd rather go with Choi. And, Grace's comments was more along the lines (if I remember right?) of "Do they really think someone who's played only 36 games at AA is ready to do what I did?" (My note: While Choi is a blue-chipper - - he still has struggled this year in the bushes. Grace was right.)

It was more reaction to the Cubs slap at him - than sucker shot by Grace.

[mainsr]

There was a good mini-essay on Grace on pgs. 47-8 of this year's Baseball Prospectus. The closing paragraph:

With a lineup already stocked with decent on-base guys like Eric Young, Ricky Gutierrez, and Bill Mueller, what the Cubs need is power. If Grace can't recognize that, television producers need to re-think using him as a color analyst. So Gracie heads out with parting shots: "We'll see if Andy [MacPhail] wants Choi hitting behind Sosa 300 times. Good luck. Sosa will walk 300 times." America loves to listen to people feel sorry for themselves, from Bill Clinton to Britney Spears, and now Mark Grace.

BTW, last year at AA Choi had a 1.042 OPS. In two minor legue seasons, he's batted 757 times with 43 HR, 165 RBI, .306 BA, .398 OBP, and .577 SLG. He has started slow this year (.745 OPS, 7 HR in 141 AB), but he started slow last year, too, and this year he's at AAA after just 36 games above A ball. As Sicklels says, "Cubs fans, help is on the way...You will forget you ever liked Mark Grace."

[NetShrine]

Who's playing 1B for the Cubs this year? How's Sosa's walk rate this year?

[jpalexa]

True, if Gracie were 100% classy, he would have spewed out the expected cliches of "The Cubs have been great to me over the years; this is just a business decision; etc., etc." As it was, he responded to the class-less-ness of the Cubs with a shot or two -- time will tell how accurate those shots are. So, he wasn't 100% classy on his exit...but he still rates above the Albert Belles in my book.

As for who is playing first for the Cubs, it looks like time has been split among three guys, with varying degrees of success:

PLAYER (games at 1B) AVG G AB R H TB 2B 3B HR RBI BB SO Runs Created
Coomer (15) .338 25 68 3 23 29 3 0 1 12 2 16
Zuleta (23) .222 33 72 8 16 33 2 0 5 17 7 22
Stairs (28) .218 36 101 8 22 36 5 0 3 10 15 24

Coomer (pro-rated) .341 15 41 2 14 17 2 0 1 7 1 10
Zuleta (pro-rated) .220 23 50 6 11 23 1 0 4 12 5 15
Stairs (pro-rated) .218 28 78 6 17 28 4 0 2 8 12 18

Aggregate .249 66 169 14 42 68 7 0 7 27 18 43 21.8

Grace (43) .318 46 154 25 49 83 11 1 7 32 25 11 34.3

As far as Sosa's walk numbers...well, it looks like he is close to a walk (41) per game (45) this year -- far higher than anytime in his career! HOWEVER, his OPS is nearly identical to last year....

YEAR TEAM AVG G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB K OBP SLG
1989 Tex .238 25 84 8 20 3 0 1 3 0 20 .238 .310
1989 CWS .273 33 99 19 27 5 0 3 10 11 27 .351 .414
1990 CWS .233 153 532 72 124 26 10 15 70 33 150 .282 .404
1991 CWS .203 116 316 39 64 10 1 10 33 14 98 .240 .335
1992 ChC .26 67 262 41 68 7 2 8 25 19 63 .317 .393
1993 ChC .261 159 598 92 156 25 5 33 93 38 135 .309 .485
1994 ChC .300 105 426 59 128 17 6 25 70 25 92 .339 .545
1995 ChC .268 144 564 89 151 17 3 36 119 58 134 .340 .500
1996 ChC .273 124 498 84 136 21 2 40 100 34 134 .323 .564
1997 ChC .251 162 642 90 161 31 4 36 119 45 174 .300 .480
1998 ChC .308 159 643 134 198 20 0 66 158 73 171 .377 .647
1999 ChC .288 162 625 114 180 24 2 63 141 78 171 .367 .635
2000 ChC .320 156 604 106 193 38 1 50 138 91 168 .406 .634
2001 ChC .268 45 153 36 41 6 1 14 40 41 52 .424 .595
Totals .272 1610 6046 983 1647 250 37 400 1119 560 1589 .336 .524


In summary, while Sosa isn't a whole lot better or worse without Grace, the Cubs' production at the first base spot is definitely down a bit.

------------------------------------------

As for Choi, he has yet to prove himself at any level above Double A. And his numbers at less-difficult Triple A are substantially below Grace's:

PLAYER AVG G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB SO Runs Created
Choi .234 41 141 21 33 6 0 7 24 19 25 19.5
Grace .318 46 154 25 49 11 1 7 32 25 11 34.3

Maybe Choi will be ready in a year or two. Maybe he won't....

[NetShrine]

Thanks JP!

[mainsr]

Originally posted by jpalexa
True, if Gracie were 100% classy, he would have spewed out the expected cliches of "The Cubs have been great to me over the years; this is just a business decision; etc., etc." As it was, he responded to the class-less-ness of the Cubs with a shot or two -- time will tell how accurate those shots are.

As far as Sosa's walk numbers...well, it looks like he is close to a walk (41) per game (45) this year -- far higher than anytime in his career!

As for Choi, he has yet to prove himself at any level above Double A.

Three responses (weren't we talking about Bonds? Yes, I know this digression is my fault. But Netshrine baited me.):
1. I never maintained that Grace was the jerk Belle was. (Though I'd rather have Albert's bat on my team.) However, when you're going on 37, and you're a firstbasemen who's slugged above .500 only once in your career, and you're coming off a year in which you missed 19 games and slugged just .429, you take your non-tender as part of the business, not class-less-ness on the part of your employer. What were the Cubs supposed to do, carry his inadequate bat for another year, blocking the advance of younger players, and pay him far more than he's worth, just for sentiment? To blast the kid who's going to replace you is bush. Not Albert-Belle-throwing-a-ball-at-a-photographer bush, but enough so that I wouldn't put Grace up there with Lankford and DeShields among the game's class acts.
2. With the great Mark Grace in the lineup, Sosa's walks went from 45 in '97 to 73 in '98 to 78 in '99 to 91 in '00. Sosa is one of those rare players, Sheffield being another, who has taught himself to be patient. Another uptick this year just continues the pattern.
3. Choi "has yet to prove himself at any level above AA?" Fer crissakes, he's only 22, in just his third year as a pro, and his FIRST above AA!! You make him sound like some scrub who's only feasted on low minors pitching. He's played fewer games in the minors than Rafael Furcal! He played 79 games in the Midwestern league in '99, 96 in the Florida State League in '00, and 36 games in the Southern League in '00. This is his first time in AAA.

[NetShrine]

FACT: Mark Grace has batted .300 or higher with runners in scoring position in each of the last nine seasons, the longest current streak by any player in the majors.

Nine years is no blip on the radar. The guy is a clutch hitter - - and most teams would be happy to have that type of bat to go with a Gold Glove @ 1B.

Last year, in the same line-up as Sosa, Grace had 11 IBB compared to Sosa's 19. Factor in that Sosa batted behind Grace, no? What does that say?

[NetShrine]

ESPN The Mag's cover story next week will be "Is America ready to love Barry?"

Let it be known - - we raised the Q 1st! :D

[mainsr]

Originally posted by NetShrine
Last year, in the same line-up as Sosa, Grace had 11 IBB compared to Sosa's 19. Factor in that Sosa batted behind Grace, no? What does that say?




That with a righthander on the mound, Young singled and stole second, leaving first base open. So they walked Grace to get to Sosa and a force at first, second, or third.

Look, I wasn't saying that Grace isn't a good player. (Actually, I don't think he is, at least not a good first baseman, but that wasn't what I was saying). I was just saying that he's not an anti-Bonds; he has his own unique jerk tendencies. What I haven't put in my posts is a statement by the BP guys that Grace has constantly trashed his teammates via off-the-record comments to his buddies in the press. I don't know how they could make that up. If I want my kids to emulate a ballplayer - now that Puckett's retired - it'll be someone like Lankford, DeShields, Gwynn, that big guy in St. Louis, Bernie Williams, etc. Not that whiner in Arizona who was such a horrible commentator in the postseason. (I don't think I'll ever forget him saying on CBS Radio that Shawon Dunston owes him for saving him all those throwing errors.) Damn ingrate kids would rather die than emulate a ballplayer, though.

[NetShrine]

Lankford or DeSheilds? Pass.

[jpalexa]

So, we agree that Grace isn't in the top *or* bottom tier of classy guys?

The other points...

Originally posted by mainsr


1. <snip> What were the Cubs supposed to do, carry his inadequate bat for another year, blocking the advance of younger players, and pay him far more than he's worth, just for sentiment? To blast the kid who's going to replace you is bush. <snip>


As you so conveniently observe (in your third paragraph below) to help prove my point, Choi is NOT ready to fill in as a major league first baseman of Grace's continued offensive caliber. How are these numbers "inadequate"...*especially* when compared to Choi?!?

PLAYER AVG G AB R H TB 2B 3B HR RBI BB SO Runs Created
Grace .318 46 154 25 49 83 11 1 7 32 25 11 34.3



2. With the great Mark Grace in the lineup, Sosa's walks went from 45 in '97 to 73 in '98 to 78 in '99 to 91 in '00. Sosa is one of those rare players, Sheffield being another, who has taught himself to be patient. Another uptick this year just continues the pattern.


I attribute the increase in Sosa's walks not due to the weakness of Grace, but due to the fact that 1998 was when Sosa substantially increased his HR numbers -- he became much more dangerous and was pitched around more often. I don't buy this patience crap -- not when his strikeout numbers shot up at the same time!


3. Choi "has yet to prove himself at any level above AA?" Fer crissakes, he's only 22, in just his third year as a pro, and his FIRST above AA!! You make him sound like some scrub who's only feasted on low minors pitching. He's played fewer games in the minors than Rafael Furcal! He played 79 games in the Midwestern league in '99, 96 in the Florida State League in '00, and 36 games in the Southern League in '00. This is his first time in AAA.

And he has been mediocre -- at best -- so far at Triple A, no? How do you think he would do in the bigs today?

Choi may very well take the major leagues by storm...who knows?...but he is hardly ready to do so at this time. Again, this erodes your point about Choi being able to step in for Grace. Choi is simply not ready and probably won't be for a couple of years. How is Grace playing 1B this year in Wrigley "blocking the advance of younger players"? Why did the Cubs get rid of Grace before they needed to? The numbers have shown that it wasn't the best decision.

[NetShrine]

Originally posted by jpalexa
So, we agree that Grace isn't in the top *or* bottom tier of classy guys?

This is one of those where some of us have to agree to disagree - which is cool :cool:

One day to get final shots in, if needed. This one's begging for closure.

[jpalexa]

Fair enough. I have heard less-than-flattering stuff about Gracie, too, so I can't sing his "classiness" praises very highly, if at all. He's no Albert Belle, but he's no Puckett, either.

'Nuff said.

[mainsr]

OK, my last salvo:

1. I'll grant you that Grace has played better this year than the bunch the Cubs have put there. But this is not a team that anyone figured would be in contention, and with Grace at first, Zuleta wastes another season at AAA and Choi wastes another season at AA. Non-contenders are smart to dump the overpriced vets and let the kids play.

2. I don't see how you can say that Choi's a washout after a total of 41 games in Iowa. He'll be up by September. Nobody expected him to up at this point; with Grace there, though, he'd be back at AA for no good reason.

3. Last year the top five walk-getters in the NL struck out 490 times, or 97.5 times each. In the AL, the top 5 struck out 628 times, or 125.6 times each. Patient hitters tend to K a lot. PS Sosa's PA/K were 4.22 in '95-'97, 4.19 '98-'00. That's a negligible increase.

I'm done.

[NetShrine]

Originally posted by mainsr
I'm done.

So is this thread! :cool2:

Thanks to all - - this was a good one.