Women's B-ball

[satchel]

I'm not a huge basketball fan, but last night I caught an incredible NCAA game - Stanford v. CU, women. If you are a basketball fan and you aren't watching these women's games, you don't know what you are missing. These women have great footwork, jumping, dribbling, all the skills, the whole package.

There's a woman on Stanford's team, a sophomore named Powell, who Robin Roberts compared to Magic Johnson. Whatever, I thought, until they showed some side by side comparison. Powell has clearly studied Magic closely and has the size and power, relative to the other players, to pull off some of his moves. The similarity was quite striking.

Oh yeah, the game. Well, after a game in which the two teams had never been apart by more than 4 points, that featured about 14 ties and 14 lead changes, CU won by 3. Stanford was only down by 1 with 4 seconds to go, but CU blocked a shot and got possession. Stanford fouled as it had to, but CU made both the free throws. Stanford tried to get a 3 pointer off at the buzzer but it didn't go in. Great game.

[chrisfostermusi]

There is a lot to be said for womens basketball. In some ways it still represents how the game was meant to be played. I don't always like this power game. Male players now "carry" the ball on every trip down the court.

Women have a good balanced game. It is ashamed they don't get their just due!

[BuzzBuzzard]

Originally posted by satchel
These women have great footwork, jumping, dribbling, all the skills, the whole package. Except the ability to dunk. I don't know enough to understand why women's B-ball doesn't do better, but from the NCAA to WNBA, the interest just isn't there. Is there something fundamentally different in the game itself that makes it less engaging? Is it simply because the average male sports fan has little interest in watching women compete?

Not sure, but when it comes to great games, I'll bet that next week's Maryland/Kansas matchup on Saturday will be way better than any game the women can put on the floor.

[Fritz Buelow]

The WNBA does have a huge following - but, it's mostly limited to the lesbian community. At least, that's what you hear.

[BuzzBuzzard]

The WNBA does not have a huge following. I don't know the precise attendance figures, but I believe it to be single digit thousands, not even 10.

[SmedIndy]

Originally posted by BuzzBuzzard
The WNBA does not have a huge following. I don't know the precise attendance figures, but I believe it to be single digit thousands, not even 10.

There's about 8 to 10,000 a game in Indiana, which is pretty good, really, when you think about it. And most of the fans are high school and junior high girls who want to play basketball.

And it's not lesbians. I'm offended by that, simply because I want my daughter to play, if she wants to, and not to be branded something simply by what she wants to do. If she is, fine, but it's unfair to paint a fan base of a team or league like that.

And I love fundamental basketball. Set screens, pick and roll. Dunks are way overrated anyway.

[hmrsf]

Originally posted by Fritz Buelow
The WNBA does have a huge following - but, it's mostly limited to the lesbian community. At least, that's what you hear. :shakehd:

The less said the better.:redhot:

[Fritz Buelow]

I know this is off-topic, kida/sorta, but, I'm not making this up on the WNBA and the lesbian fans:

http://www.equityfeminism.com/articles/2001/000072.html

WNBA Tries Marketing to Lesbians
By Brian Carnell
Friday, June 01, 2001

In a move unprecedented in professional sports, the Women's National Basketball Association is explicitly reaching out to the lesbian community to try to increase both ticket sales and television ratings. The Los Angeles Sparks recently participated in a rally and market promotion at a West Hollywood lesbian bar, the Girl Club.

Last year the WNBA's Seattle Storm featured a controversial Gay Pride Night event, but this year the league seems to be taking the homosexual community more seriously as a market, with reports that marketing to the lesbian community was a major issue at a recent league meeting.

About to begin its fifth year, the WNBA has begun to see its popularity stagnate. Average attendance at games has stalled at a mere 9,100 and last year its TV ratings on NBC earned only a 1.4 share. It is true that this is a higher share than the NHL on ABC or even women's college basketball on CBS, but the WNBA doesn't have the sort of competition from other sports events that the NHL and women's college basketball have. The bottom line, however, is still that the WNBA has yet to turn a profit.

Some marketers believe that the gay community is a promising demographic for sports teams. As Howard Buford, CEO of New York-based advertising agency Prime Access, told ESPN, "Many of these households don't have children and thus there's a higher dispensable income, especially for entertainment. In addition, there's a higher amount of dispensable time that is available. It's the perfect fit and is one of the reasons sports is so attractive to the gay community."

The fear and the risk of such promotions, however, are the possibilities that more conservative fans who disapprove of homosexuality will stay away from the league because of its outreach efforts. Personally, I can see how that might have been an issue 15 or 20 years ago, but that sort of reaction is becoming increasingly irrelevant. This is a very smart move by the WNBA which really does nothing more than acknowledge what has been widely known about the WNBA for the past couple years -- a large number of its fans are lesbians. Big deal.

[Fritz Buelow]

More on WNBA and fan attraction:

http://www.lesbianworlds.com/articles/sports_051801.htm

Sparks Court Lesbians
By: Therese Jansen

May 4, 2001, after a day at training camp practice in Los Angeles, the Sparks boarded a bus bound for West Hollywood's [California] Girl Bar for a pre-season pep rally. Girl Bar is the nation's largest lesbian club with approximately 12,000 members.

Joe McCormack, Vice-President of Finance with the Sparks organization, and an officer who is more actively increasing his role in the management of the Sparks stated, "We want to market this basketball team to fans whoever they might be, be they an inner-city youth basketball team or someone of an alternate lifestyle." And suddenly the lesbian fan population became visible.

Previously all marketing of the Los Angeles team was aimed at family groups -- focusing on inexpensive entertainment for the kids [boys and girls] at prices much lower than the cost of a Laker ticket. The radical change in marketing strategy is definitely a first, and well past its time. Most gratifying was the change in strategy bore almost immediate results.

Girl Bar owner Sandy Sachs announced the sale of 75 season tickets in just the first two days following the announcement of the event. Positive reinforcement rarely moves much faster.

Before anyone assumes that the marketing folks with the Los Angeles team are open-minded, progressive gurus, we should take a look at what prompted this brilliantly courageous change in marketing. Not surprising, it was the numbers, of course. More specifically, the dropping attendance records -- Spark home attendance has declined every season since 1997 when the team averaged 8,931.

When asked about the new marketing strategy, president Johnny Buss remarked, "We've reached the point now where we can be smarter about our marketing. We can target particular groups. Our market is girls age 12-14. It's also these women."

Mr. Buss seems a bit uncomfortable using the word lesbian, but I find it encouraging that he is finally able to acknowledge us in his fan demographics.

See you at the games!

[satchel]

Originally posted by BuzzBuzzard

Not sure, but when it comes to great games, I'll bet that next week's Maryland/Kansas matchup on Saturday will be way better than any game the women can put on the floor.

"Way better" than the Stanford/Colorado game I described? Doubtful, unless tattoo flashing and trash talking make a game better. Oh, yeah, and "dunking," which some people seem to think makes a basketball game more interesting. I am sure the Maryland/Kansas matchup will be a great game, don't misunderstand. I probably won't be watching, but I am sure that those who are will get a treat. But "way better?" Why? Can you provide some support for that elegantly stated conclusory statement?

[satchel]

Sorry, I am a little confused. What's the connection between the sexual orientation of some fraction of the WNBA's fans, and the quality of the play on the court?

[Fritz Buelow]

Originally posted by satchel
Sorry, I am a little confused. What's the connection between the sexual orientation of some fraction of the WNBA's fans, and the quality of the play on the court?

None. The mix of the fans came up when it was questioned whether or not the WNBA draws.

[SmedIndy]

Originally posted by Fritz Buelow


None. The mix of the fans came up when it was questioned whether or not the WNBA draws.

Segmented marketing is one thing (and it only got attention because of the lesbian factor). Painting a fan base with a broad brush is another.

I could say all Yankees fans are egotistical know it alls who've never lived outside the tri-state area and are out of touch with the real world, but I won't.

[Fritz Buelow]

Smed - you're right. I should have worded it differently.

'Tho, the lesbian community is the WNBA's new fav target:

From http://www.sportingnews.com/voices/dave_kindred/20010724.html :

Of the WNBA's 16 teams, at least nine do direct marketing to gay fans by such means as "advertising in alternative-lifestyle magazines or having promotion booth at gay pride events," Weir wrote. A Minnesota Lynx executive said, "For us, it's a matter of just looking at your fan base. It's no different from what we do with the Lutherans, the Jewish groups or the philanthropic groups in our market."

[Fritz Buelow]

More on the above:

http://www.s-t.com/daily/07-01/07-08-01/d04sp107.htm

WNBA alters strategy, courts lesbians
By Debbie Arrington, Sacramento Bee

Call it a coming-out party.
In its fifth year, the WNBA has acknowledged the obvious: Women's basketball has lesbian fans.
And the Sacramento Monarchs would like to sell them more tickets. July 21, the Monarchs will host the team's "First Annual Gay Pride Event," a first for Sacramento professional basketball and a rarity in major-league sports.
"We're pretty excited about it," said Sonja Brown, director of public relations for Maloof Sports and Entertainment. "We've discussed it with a lot of groups. When people learn about it, they think it's a wonderful idea."
This appears to be a 180-degree reversal from last July, when the Monarchs' front office became embroiled in controversy over the posting of a local lesbian group's name on the Arco Arena message board.
"After last year, I have incredible respect for Joe Maloof," said Kat Fox, who organized a Monarchs game party last summer for a group from the Davis Dykes, more than 400 e-mail friends and University of California-Davis alumni.
Trying to heal any rifts caused by the controversy, Maloof made several amends, including the promise of a gay-pride event.
"Call it politically correct; I just call it being nice," said Shelly Crouse-Monarez, a Davis Dykes member.
Times indeed are changing. With the league's blessing, WNBA franchises this season are actively marketing the gay community.
"We've opened up a new audience," WNBA Commissioner Val Ackerman said. "At the large level, we're trying to target everybody. Our basic message is basketball is beautiful, no matter who you are."
The league estimates its game attendance as 75 percent female, an unheard-of ratio in professional sports, Ackerman said.
Reaching out to gay groups is a natural in big cities and California, where gay-pride events have been common for more than 20 years.
Examples of this new marketing:

The Los Angeles Sparks signed up Girl Bar, a popular lesbian social club with 12,000 members, as a strategic partner. More than 300 people showed up for a Girl Bar-sponsored rally at a West Hollywood dance club to meet the Sparks' players.

The Minnesota Lynx advertise in a large Midwest gay and lesbian magazine. The Phoenix Mercury and other franchises advertise in gay newspapers. The Monarchs bought a half-page ad in Mom Guess What, a local lesbian newspaper.

The Seattle Storm and Miami Sol last summer held ground-breaking events. The Storm hosted a Gay Pride Night, selling more than 300 tickets to lesbian activists. The Sol signed autographs at two gay rallies and plan more.
These moves aren't about sex or diversity or political correctness. They're all about money.
Attendance has been flat for the WNBA. The Monarchs average approximately 7,850 fans a game, below the WNBA average of 8,465 and 11th in the 16-team league. Reaching out to previously ignored potential customers makes sense.
"The WNBA is still a fairly young league," Brown said. "We're still trying to identify our fans and how they can get the most value and best experience at a Monarchs game."
Though league officials are loath to admit it, the WNBA once avoided discussing its large lesbian fan base for fear of offending traditional families, its original target market.
Balancing different markets can be delicate, and the league is hopeful that families won't rebel as it reaches out to gays. At a recent Monarchs game, feelings were mixed.
"Professional sports is all about money, and the WNBA is no different," said a man at the game with his wife and two children who wished to remain anonymous. "If there is a segment of the population they can tap to get more money, then they will do it. It doesn't bother me. We come to the games to watch the women play basketball, not to watch what is going on in the stands."
A woman who would identify herself only as Denise, attending a game with her two daughters, was unsure whether the team's public acknowledgment of gays would ultimately keep her away.
"I have been bringing my daughters to Monarchs games for the last two years, and there has always been an obvious lesbian contingent in the crowd," Denise said. "The girls are too young to notice and have never asked why two women are holding hands or kissing. I've tried to ignore it, and we have just enjoyed the women playing basketball. But if the league is going to start marketing more for gays and lesbians, which to me seems to go against Christian family values, and my daughters start asking questions when they promote something like this Gay Pride Day ... it's no longer just going to a basketball game. I don't know what I am going to do."
In case of conflicts, the Arco Arena security staff has had sensitivity training as part of its basic preparation, Brown said.
Fans and front-office officials don't think a little display of gay pride will turn off non-lesbians or force traditional families out of the arena.
"We think it will be a very positive experience for everyone," Brown said of the gay-pride event. "We think we're being pioneers. Maybe other teams will copy us."
To attract gays, the Monarchs chose a celebration of pride. The festivities will start at 2 p.m. -- five hours before tipoff -- with two live bands and other entertainment and booths outside Arco. The tentative plan, Brown said, includes the Rainbow Chorus singing the national anthem and halftime entertainment by an all-female drum corps.
"This is a really smart move in this marketplace, where you have to be heard above the din," said Jim Buzinski, publisher of outsports.com, a Web magazine devoted to the gay side of sports. "Ignoring such a large percentage of your audience is crazy."
Buzinski, a former sports editor in Long Beach and Pasadena, is an expert on homophobia in sports.
"This would be a first to my knowledge of a professional league actively encouraging its teams to reach out to the gay and lesbian community," he said.
"No one has heard of this happening before. The WNBA would be pioneers. But it's not surprising. They're going where the money is. Everyone's money is the same color."
In corporate America, the WNBA would not be alone in going after gay bucks.
Several major companies -- including American Airlines, American Express, AT&T, Anheuser-Busch, Coors, IBM and Subaru -- have targeted some of their advertising to this alternative audience. Such corporate sponsors as Budweiser and Wherehouse helped sponsor San Francisco's recent Gay Pride Parade, which attracted approximately 1 million people. AT&T is among the sponsors for the Gay Games.
Economics fuels this interest. Industry analysts estimate gay spending power in the United States at $400 billion.
"We have disposable income, we come to the games anyway and we have friends," said Lynn Fowler of the WNBA's interest in gays. "The problem is, teams still don't know their audience."
Fowler became hooked on women's college basketball at Long Beach State and was a fan of the short-lived American Basketball League's Long Beach StingRays. When Fowler moved back to Sacramento two months ago, she became an instant Monarchs fan.
She's not surprised that the Monarchs would like more fans like her, loyal and willing to show their support financially.
"People in the front office have to be comfortable with it," Fowler said of marketing to gays. "A lot depends on their comfort level. (Homophobic) attitudes are still there and still deeply ingrained. It hasn't changed a lot in sports because society hasn't changed a lot."
American sports franchises long have ignored or distanced themselves from gays, fearing a backlash from traditional fans. There are no Gay Pride Nights in the NBA.
In Major League Baseball, the Cubs broke a barrier by advertising in a gay newspaper -- a first in the big leagues. The move made sense, Buzinski said. "Wrigley Field is in the heart of Chicago's gay district."
Yet a recent ESPN fan poll showed that acceptance has a long way to go. Asked how fans would react if a major-league baseball player announced he were gay, more than 67 percent said fans would turn against him.

[SmedIndy]

I think many men, especially those who have talk shows, are threatened by women athletes' competing in their domain, so are quick to slag it. And female athletes have come out more often than male athletes.

The WNBA is a niche pro sport, like MLS, Arena Football, and WUSA and, to some aspect, tennis. People who think it's failing because of its smaller attendance are missing the point.

[BuzzBuzzard]

Originally posted by satchel
Can you provide some support for that elegantly stated conclusory statement? I can't define way better...it is in the eye of the beholder. I suspect, though, that the game will be played at a faster tempo, more physical, better executed, and will have more swings that the women's game and that I find appealing. The old chocolate and vanilla thing. Everybody's got their preference in entertainment.

And I still think the basketball without the dunk is not the same game and its absence is a take away. It has become a fundamental part of the game, at least for the men. I find the women's game to be slow, boring, and to some degree, poorly executed.

At the end of the day, I don't care either. I haven't watched more than 5 minutes of the men's tournament this year not have I watched 5 seconds of the women.

[satchel]

Originally posted by BuzzBuzzard
I can't define way better...it is in the eye of the beholder.

Yes, I suppose that is the crux of the matter. I don't watch enough basketball to authoritatively address your other comments. But my impressions do differ from yours. I have seen both men and women, at both the NCAA and pro level, play good basketball and sloppy basketball; no correlation between the sex of the players and the quality of the play. You say dunks are integral - I find them uninteresting. You prefer the faster pace of men's basketball. Personally, I like to be able to follow what is going on. (I'm a baseball fan - fast paced action is not what I look for in a sport! :) )

At any rate, the comment with which I started this thread still stands. I saw a women's game that was as exciting and as well-played as any men's game I've seen; I think everyone should take a look.

[SmedIndy]

Some of the best games I've seen have featured nary a dunk.

[KCBOOMER]

I wouldn't walk across the street to watch a women's basketball game unless it was the Playmates versus the Pets.

On the other hand doesn't matter to me at all if other folks enjoy. Different strokes as they say.

[BuzzBuzzard]

Originally posted by SmedIndy
Some of the best games I've seen have featured nary a dunk. And the players were wearing short shorts and Chuck Taylor's back then, too. Time to catch up to modern day hoops.

[SmedIndy]

Originally posted by BuzzBuzzard
And the players were wearing short shorts and Chuck Taylor's back then, too. Time to catch up to modern day hoops.

Buzz, Buzz, Buzz, this was a game this year. Wabash vs. Wooster. We lost, but a fantastic, hard nosed game where the crowd was into it.

And before you slag D-3 hoops, need I remind you that a crowd of 1,000 in a small gym is just as imposing as a crowd in a more sterile enviornment, the kids play just as hard, and they do it for the LOVE of the game, since there is no scholarship money attached.

[BuzzBuzzard]

D-3? Please. There are JV teams at some high schools that are better. :rolleyes:

[SmedIndy]

Originally posted by BuzzBuzzard
D-3? Please. There are JV teams at some high schools that are better. :rolleyes:

Right. Sure. Right. Whatever. Like you've seen any quality D-3 games.

I guess you have no idea about a true D-3 program, where most of the STUDENT-athletes didn't get a scholarship to the D-1 program in their area, or to the D-1 school of their choice, and instead of going to an inferior institution decide to play where they can get an EDUCATION.

Our 6-7 forward was good enough to get recruited by some lower caliber D-1 schools and several D-2 schools but wanted to actually go to a good school. Our 6-5 center is also a tight end on our football team, and wanted to play both sports in college.

Pete Metzelaars, who played 16 or so seasons in the NFL, led our team to the D-3 hoop national title in 1982. He played D-3 because Michigan wouldn't let him play basketball.

Many players in Ohio, while not good enough for the Ohio State program and on the fringe of playing for Bowling Green or maybe an Ohio University, choose to play at Wittenberg, Wooster, Capital, Otterbein because they will be able to play AND they'll have to go to class and study.

The main difference between D-1 and D-3 in hoops and football is size. D-3 schools don't have the big men, as the centers normally are 6-6 to 6-7. They do run quite a few 3-guard offenses. In football, the D-3 linemen are usually 5-11 to 6-2, and 250 to 270 or so. The speed is just a tick off a D-1 player. It's still quality, competitive, compelling.

This is someone who has been around college programs for quite a while, and now works at a D-3 school. I'd rather support a program at that level, which is the true grass roots, where the kids play for the love of the game, and also go to class and wind up owning the coporations the D-1 guys have to work for when they find out they aren't going to play in the NBA, ABA, USBL, CBA, or overseas.

And Devean George and Terry Porter aren't players? D-3 boys.

Check out www.d3hoops.com.

[Fritz Buelow]

Reminder - this thread is on women's hoops.

[satchel]

Steve - I tried to split the DivIII stuff out into a separate thread but I don't have mod privileges for this forum! :o

[Fritz Buelow]

Don't sweat it Satch - - if the fellas want to discuss it, they can start a thread on it.

[tenkevcardinal]

Just becuase women play the game "old school" doesn't make the games fun to watch. Maybe it is for some but I just can't stand watching it. Its boring. They are slow, and they can't dunk. They do trash talk too, its just that its enforced more harshly becuase the powers that be still have more control than in the NBA. The only women's sport that I can watch completely sober is tennis. All the other women's sports are boring to me. Ecspecially the WNBA.

[SmedIndy]

Originally posted by tenkevcardinal
They are slow, and they can't dunk.

Dunking adds nothing to the game for me. I guess it's the Hoosier in me. Set screens, find the open man, play D.

[satchel]

tenkevcardinal - fisrt, welcome to NetShrine!

No one can watch every sporting event; there aren't enough hours in the day. For what it's worth, I don't normally watch anything besides baseball. But I enjoyed the couple of women's NCAA games I watched, especially that Stanford/CU game. They didn't seem slow to me, and believe me I never missed the dunking.


For me, I watch sports to see the physical accomplishments of people who are very, very good at what they do. A group of the best women in the country at playing basketball is at least as interesting to me as a group of the best men at it. The fact that the games are played differently is not a detraction from one game or the other.

[pathogan]

First, that girls who want to play ball can, and not have the stigma attached to them[I find womans college ball watchable as opposed to mens} 2, with the wnba, there is something athletically for young woman to shoot for...as far as marketing, good for them...people are going to stereotype no matter what, just check these boards for example...

[Craig S.]

I think the reason that women's basketball doesn't compete with men's is simply the level of athleticism. It goes beyond the "no dunking" idea (dunking is dull, anyway). The speed and grace of the men's game is just so much better.

I watch the women's game on occasion, especially at this time of year, and there are several things I admire about it. Most prominently, I appreciate the fact that they know how to shoot foul shots and that they don't travel on every second possession without being called for it. They play a much more fundamentally sound game than the men, at least in my opinion.

However, in a game built on a combination of speed, power and skill, women can't be on the same level as men. That's not a shot at women - God knows there are millions of them who are better than me - but the males on every level are more athletic. Until people appreciate sound play over athletic play, the men's game will continue to dominate.

[pwdennis]

I occasionally watch the WNBA and the Womens NCAA variety of basketball. I gave up on the NBA years ago and rarely watch the mens NCAA game. I think the lack of the dunk is what is appealing about the womens game - it is still a skill game, no big boxcar like Shaq clogging up the middle.

I think the NCAA had it right during the Lew Alcindor years when they declared the dunk to be offensive goaltending. If the dunk must be a part of the game perhaps it should be worth 1 point This would open up the game and force players to learn real shots, with the dunk being a last resort


The sexual preferences of the fans of the WNBA is a non issue as far as I am concerned. Either the product is worth watching or it isn't. I think the WNBA product is worth watching and so is the female NCAA - I do think that as time passes, you will get fewer obvious mismatches in the womens game - this will be due to the expanding participation of women in the sport

[satchel]

Craig and pwdennis - welcome to the NetShrine forum! and thanks for your thoughtful comments.

[satchel]

I do think that men's basketball and women's basketball might as well be different sports, so it's somewhat unfair to say that one isn't any good because it lacks some aspects of the other. That said, I have to concede that it's acceptable to prefer one over the other. Most posters on this thread who have said they don't like women's basketball can point to particular aspects of the men's game that they enjoy, and that's legitimate. (We can, of course, argue about whether those aspects have value.) I would take issue with comments of the "I don't like it because girls aren't athletic" ilk.

[Craig S.]

Satchel, thanks for the welcome.

As for my comment about men being more athletic, I didn't mean to imply that women lack athelticism. I just think the level in the men's game is higher. It's hard to argue that their game isn't faster and more athletic - just compare the semis of each that took place.

You have a good point, though, about not comparing them. I think that might be the best solution. They really are two different games, and I think they'll always be that way.

As for tonight, will Oklahoma even keep it close? I'll watch just to see how dominant UConn can be.

[chrisfostermusi]

Say what you want about Womens B Ball but those girls from UCONN could stick it to some guy teams. 39-0 against your peers is impressive! One of the best womens teams to ever hit the court. They deserve a standing ovation!:hooray: :hooray: :hooray: :hooray: :hooray: