statesmen of the game

[satchel]

On a different thread I mused about starting this one. With three great ambassadors and elder statesmen of the game retired -- Ripken, McGwire, and my all-time favorite Gwynn -- who do you see stepping into those formidable shoes? This is a two prong question - is there a current senior superstar that you think can represent the game with grace and class? And is there a younger player on the rise that your crystal ball suggests may be able to take on the role in the future?

[Fritz Buelow]

Maybe Biggio on the older side? Or Tom Glavine?

Perhaps Palmeiro?

There's really not a lot out there. Forget Rickey, Clemens, Alomar, Bonds, Mussina, or Kevin Brown.

Maybe Sosa?

On the younger side - - Jeter, for sure.

There's really no Ripkens or Gwynns out there, IMHO.

[Skip]

You know, Bonds could do it, but it isnt in him.

Sosa would be the real deal, but I think he is at least as self-centered as Bonds and would have trouble assuming the "conscience" mantle.

Glavine may be the best choice, but he is too unknown in the pop-press, and a pitcher just isnt as big as a slugger, esp. today. Glavine also seems to be very much a union guy, and that scares me in that the union faces are unlikely to escape the next year without damage to their reputations (deserved or otherwise).

Second is Biggio, but he is equally unknown to the common fan.

Griffey could've been it, but now he is tarnished.

How about a happy (is it possible) Frank Thomas? HOF numbers, supposedly fresh attitude, one team, .... Nah, the southsiders never get a break.

[Duque]

Bagwell? Giambi, definitely, in a couple of years. Carlos Delgado, A-Rod, and Jeter down the road as well.

[SmedIndy]

Originally posted by Duque
Bagwell? Giambi, definitely, in a couple of years. Carlos Delgado, A-Rod, and Jeter down the road as well.

Bags complains too much. He was one of the ones that got Dierker fired (not that he Miceli'd him, but) and thinks the Astros need a bunch of old guys like him.

[pathogan]

There are none...:bawl: :bawl: :bawl:

[WiredTiger]

Giambi (Not Jeremy!!!)
Jeter
Hudson
Bagwell

[Fritz Buelow]

I don't see the Giambi thing happening at all.

How many tattooed bikers go on to be statesmen?

Think Ripken or Gwynn had a shirt (like Giambi) that reads "Party like a Rock Star, <beep> like a Porn Star, and rake like an All-Star"? Probably never.

[satchel]

I actually don't think Jeter will ever be a statesman with the stature of McGwire or Gwynn. He may have the makeup and class, but as long as he's a Yankee he'll never be embraced by the country as a whole.

I thought of Maddux as a possibility, but I think it has to be an everyday player. Also pitchers tend to be perceived as a little intense and weird.

On the other hand, Curt Schilling would be an excellent "elder statesman" type.

I think A-Rod is a distinct possibility down the road. I like the idea of Biggio stepping up now.

The more I think of it, the more I like Schilling. I hope he gets the opportunity to play the role.

[KCBOOMER]

There are a lot of excellent players and I am sure some of them will rise to the fore.

[gyb13]

Originally posted by Fritz Buelow
How many tattooed bikers go on to be statesmen?
Well, if Ventura can be governor...

[Fritz Buelow]

Originally posted by gyb13
Well, if Ventura can be governor...

No comment. :D

[TGwynn19]

Originally posted by KCBOOMER
There are a lot of excellent players and I am sure some of them will rise to the fore.

I think that the labor issue will have a lot to do with who will be seen as a leader. Some player(s) will get quoted in the media and will be seen as articulate and intelligent. If baseball does not completely crap the bed this season, I feel the player who can shine during a potentionally dark moment has a great chance to become the next ambassador.

[sweaver]

Curt Schilling is first in line. Bagwell and Jeter, and in time Alex Rodriguez, possibly Nomar as well, will be recognized as elder statesmen. Greg Maddux is another.

[Fritz Buelow]

The money thing will always hold A-Rod back. It's hard to be loved with Boras as your agent.

[sweaver]

Eventually, someone will get a bigger contract than A-Rod. That is when he can take his place as an elder statesman.

[satchel]

But he has an escalation clause, doesn't he?

[Fritz Buelow]

Plus, who else is going to get THAT money - - only another SS that hits .350 with 40 HRs and has a gold glove. Not many of those.

[sweaver]

That's what they said after the Phillies signed Pete Rose for 4 years for $3.2 million. That's over the life of the contract, not per year. The bar always gets raised. Wait until Jeter and Nomar reach free agency time.

[LeGrandOrange]

I still think Sosa is "the guy" to take the role. Sosa's the "big ticket player" now that McGwire is gone, so he obviously has drawing power, and we of course know of his great off-the-field exploits, mentioning them again would be gratuitous. :p
He's had flaws, yes, but I think he is "the guy" right now. Plus, he hits homers, so that helps people like him a lot. :p
I would probably like to see Edgar Martinez take this role in the American League. Even with Sosa's extreme likability, I think Edgar's got the more charming personality. He's homely, kind, and an all around good guy. And he's got a classic stroke to boot. He's everything good about the Mariners, and guys like him are what's great about baseball. Who cares if he's a designated hitter.
Of course, your mileage may vary.

[Duque]

I'm a little surprised why MLB hasn't embraced Delgado more - he is a great offensive player, and by all accounts, a real amiable guy.

[gyb13]

How about Albert "Unchanged Age" Pujols as an ambassador for latin players?

[Fritz Buelow]

Pujols has to start showing up for awards first - esp. when it's just down the street.

Can't see Edgar doing it either - - he's already at that age, if it's not there yet, it may be too late.

I truly think it will be a long time before we see another statesmen like Gwynn or Ripken. They are rare.

[satchel]

Delgado is an interesting suggestion. As I understand, he already has this ambasssadorial role in Puerto Rico. I remember the opening day game in Puerto Rico last year (year before?) when both he and Pudge were introduced. The crowd were excited to welcome Pudge, but they were abosultely nuts over Delgado. He is adored there.

[Fuzzy Bear]

I can see Jeter in the role. I think he can transcend the New York thing, if there is one.

Jeter's play last year in the Oakland series was memorable in that it was (a) the big momentum-changer and (b) the kind of hustle coaches and old-timers drool:drool: over. Plus, he shows a sense of diplomacy while talking to the press, which is a bit harder to do in the big media markets where journalism, and the quest for the controversial quote is more intense.

[LeGrandOrange]

The thing about Jeter is that Westerners like myself consider him a goody two-shoes. Everything good always seems to fall in his lap...he's almost "spoiled".

[T_for_Texas]

I don't think anyone has mentioned either Todd Helton, Troy Glaus or Shawn Green, all of whom strike me as being consumate professionals, great examples to young kids, talented, team leaders, and players who many others will be looking up to with respect in years to come.

[satchel]

Thanks Texas. I like all of your suggestions. I had thought of Helton myself and I have a soft spot for Shawn Green. I don't know much about Glaus, is he a good guy?

[Fritz Buelow]

Glaus is on my crap list. Every other year, I send out balls to minor leaguers to sign - - provide the return SASE, pen, ball, etc. Always include a nice letter.

In the last 6 years, I've gooten some guys who made the show and then some - - Scott Rolen, Adruw Jones, Jose Cruz, Jr., Mike Sweeney, Paul Konerko, Adam Dunn, etc.

The only three to never sign for me were - Pat Burrell, Lance Berkman and the aformentioned Glaus.

Hard to believe, for me, that a guy playing AA in Midland Texas who thinks too much of himself to sign a ball (when he was a nobody to most fans) will become a statesman.

Even worse, he kept the ball. If he didn't want to sign, that's fine. Drop the ball back in the SASE and return it to me blank.

[sweaver]

Of course, you used delivery confirmation so you are confident that it wasn't just lost in the mail.

[Fritz Buelow]

Originally posted by sweaver
Of course, you used delivery confirmation so you are confident that it wasn't just lost in the mail.

No. But, I have a very good track record with these things not getting lost. Last 18 sent, fifteen came back signed - - sans Glaus, Burrell, and Berkman.

Besides, it had his address and mine - - on the return - - so, if he didn't get it, it would have come back to me. The envelope is large, something like 18x16 - - pretty hard for the post office to lose something that big.

[bill wisnosky]

My vote goes to Bags at this time, Jeter coming on, Larry Walker should pull some weight. The kid down the line in in San Diego, Shaun Burroughs.......:D

[SmedIndy]

I can't see Bagwell as a statesman.

He lobbied so hard for Ausmus to be on the Astros and that was a disaster. He's trying to be GM as well as play, and his GMing style doesn't work.

[Glyndwr]

Originally posted by Duque
Bagwell? Giambi, definitely, in a couple of years. Carlos Delgado, A-Rod, and Jeter down the road as well.

Delgado is getting a reputation in Toronto as a bit of a whiner. I foget the details but he had a bit of a go at the Jays fans/media over the off season.

[johnny]

I think Jeter in time.

With another big season or 2, how about Luis Gonzalez?

[Gibby]

Unless they have gone out and cloned McGwire, Ripken or
Gwynn I don't see anyone taking on the title of SOTG
anytime soon. We may have seen the last of a dying
breed.
Sammy "Basbowl has been berry berry goode to me" Sosa
is not even close to filling the above mentioned players
cleats.

[Fritz Buelow]

Originally posted by Glyndwr
Delgado is getting a reputation in Toronto as a bit of a whiner. I foget the details but he had a bit of a go at the Jays fans/media over the off season.

Interesting.
BTW, Glyndwr - welcome to the forum!

[tenkevcardinal]

Why not Pedro?

[Fritz Buelow]

Originally posted by tenkevcardinal
Why not Pedro?

There's a height requirement, I think? :stinker:

[tenkevcardinal]

Haha, although I think Tony Gwynn wasn't any taller than Pedro.

[satchel]

I think Pedro suffers from a few problems that would prevent his widespread acceptance as statesman of the game. One, I am sorry to say, is that his English isn't perfect enough. Sosa might be able to overcome the same problem with his ebuillience and more general fame, but lacking those qualities I don't think Pedro can. Second, Pedro embodies all the characteristics that made me think originally (before I thought of Schilling) that it couldn't be a pitcher. Pedro is weird and intense and a little bit of a headcase, as many good pitchers are. He also has a reputation for being a headhunter and a complainer, not statesmanlike qualities.

[tenkevcardinal]

wow, satchel, remind me never to get in an argument with you. If you're going to be dropping words like ebuillience I am way out of my league.:)

[ChrisCary]

I think a necessity to be a statesmen would be a respect for a history of the game. I'm not saying Pedor doesn;t have that respect but he doesn;t give me that impression.

I think Derek Jeter could end up finding himself in that role whether he likes it or not.

Always well spoken, charitable, plays hard and hustles, knowledgable and respectful of those that came before him. Friendly with fans and "approachable"

[satchel]

Originally posted by tenkevcardinal
wow, satchel, remind me never to get in an argument with you. If you're going to be dropping words like ebuillience I am way out of my league.:)

That's me; ten-dollar words, two-bit ideas. :)

[tenkevcardinal]

Here's my ten dollar word: strategery

[satchel]

Originally posted by tenkevcardinal
Here's my ten dollar word: strategery

uh-oh, are you dissing me for misspelling "ebullience?" ;)

[hmrsf]

I see it differently. A statesman will rise. Just like one always has. The game will be entrusted to a small few who will give more to the game then they ever took out.

Last year some greats retired. Each decade carries a few. More will come. I have great faith in the game. Not sure who the statesman will be but one will rise.

[Gibby]

Well when that one ever does rise, lets hope Selig is
not there to market him or her. LoL

[tenkevcardinal]

uh-oh, are you dissing me for misspelling "ebullience"

No, no, thats from Saturday Night Live, when they were making fun of George W Bush during his run for office. Sorry, thought everyone would remember.

[gyb13]

Originally posted by tenkevcardinal
No, no, thats from Saturday Night Live, when they were making fun of George W Bush during his run for office. Sorry, thought everyone would remember.
"Hmm....lock....box"

[moose]

if jeter weren't so reluctant, I think he has the demeanor. But Gwynn was the type of guy that loved being the statesman.

How about Adam Dunn? He'll be a monster, and every interview I see with him he's having fun (you would too if you were in his shoes...). Then again, all we have to do is look to center on that team to see a guy who was a young star having fun once.... [yes, yes, he still has fun playing the game, i know!]

-M4H

[Duque]

What's interesting to me is that, for example, Kirby Puckett was always considered a great statesman for the game. Barry Bonds was (and is) considered a jerk par-excellance. But now we know that Puckett may have been a spousal abuser and had a long-standing mistress, while Bonds has been a model family man. Maybe it's time to stop judging athlete's characters on how much they talk to reporters?

[moose]

Originally posted by Duque
Maybe it's time to stop judging athlete's characters on how much they talk to reporters?
Well - I agree that the press jumps on guys who don't talk. But take Mussina, my namesake. Moose is a private guy - he talks to the media, but often times he does so begrudgingly. On the other hand, he hasn't ever blown up or played cry-baby like Bonds has.

I'm not saying Bonds has been treated fairly, but it's not just that he didn't talk much - he's far from innocent. [Someone like Griffey, on the other hand...]

M

[satchel]

Originally posted by tenkevcardinal


No, no, thats from Saturday Night Live, when they were making fun of George W Bush during his run for office. Sorry, thought everyone would remember.

Everyone else probably did remember. :o

[satchel]

Moose - does the press generally dislike Mussina because he doesn't talk? I recall Michael Kay having a bit of a bash-fest last season. I was wondering if it's your impression that the press as a whole has trouble with his private demeanor.

To place it in the sports cliche context, I can see where he comes across as a guy who doesn't really enjoy baseball, or have the competitive "fire" that makes some pitchers so admired. It's unfortunate that he gets that bad rap. At the same time, you have to know when you sign that first pro contract that talking with reporters is part of the game.

Duque - I like your comment about how we judge ballplayers. Unfortunately, their interaction with the press is pretty much the only window we have into their personalities. The next statesman will likely be anointed by the press, just as the past ones have been. Or to draw a more precise analogy, he will be nominated by the press and confirmed by the fans.

[moose]

[To save space, see the preceding message for the question of Mussina's relationship w/ the media]

There were definitely some mixed feelings. Kay was somewhat judgmental at first, as were many. And I DEFINITELY saw it coming (I'm no genius, many did too). I would say that they're starting to warm up to him. He seems like a guy who you need to understand.

IMO, he has a strong desire to win and excel. From what I've read, he's an exceedingly nice person and solid teammate - quiet, but not serious, in the clubhouse. As to talking w/ reporters, he always talks, but he doesn't give reporters what they want - he makes them work for it.

Bottom line is that he's an excellent player, and he'd get more recognition if (a) he gave the reporters more and (b) they let him off the hook.

Yes, you are a public figure, but no, I don't think he sinks below what is necessary as a public figure.

[moose]

There is an issue I've noticed in thinking about this. I don't want to be inflammatory, but Gary Sheffield's recent comments on race and baseball have made me re-examine the Mussina/Press issue.

Let me make a qualification: I am not even suggesting that the media is racist or any particular member is a racist. But I have noticed a tendency in pro sports writing. I think there CAN BE [ie, there is no fixed and permanent rule] a double standard in media relations.

For example - Mussina's characterized as the Ultra-smart Stanford whiz who just wants his privacy. That is, the reluctant superstar.

Griffey, to compare, stops smiling and all of a sudden represents everything wrong with the pro athlete - he's bitter, he's arrogant, he's overpaid, he doesn't try, he isn't kind to the media, etc etc.

Let me be very clear: Mussina has been accused similar things, and several reporters have taken more "Mussina-esque" angles to the Griffey story (especially lately)

BUT - When I read articles, those angles come out again and again.

Again, I'm not trying to incite anything other than thoughtfulness. I posted this here only because I think what Moose does is legit and that he rides the line but always stays on the right side of media relations. On the other hand, have other guys done any worse, despite their bad reputations? I'm not talking Bonds here, btw. Mussina is private, but somehow Griffey is "difficult". Are Scott Rolen and Gary Sheffield so different?

-M4H
[ps - another easy example from the NBA:
John Stockton has, IMO, always been on the other side of that line Mussina delicately walks. He truly has been truculent with the media for many years. Heck, you can't ask his shoe size without angry looks. But did anyone see Chris Webber blow up at reporters after repeatedly refusing to talk about his love life? I mean, even if Stockton were rumored to be with Tyra Banks, they wouldn't even bother with Stockton because he's "private." I'm not excusing C-Webb's explosion, but hey - before it happened he was a "difficult superstar," whereas Stockton is the "private veteran". Just an observation.]
/end off topic /begin baseball mode again

[mawwil]

I think that image is everything after production.
We all know the SOTG has to be good at the game. But, the image is what is important, to be respected.
I think of guys like A-Rod, Griffey, Jeter.
Then there are young guys like Carlos Pena who I hear is supposed to be a great clubhouse guy. He may be there in 10 years.
Personnally, the image I agree with the most is Edgar Martinez. I hate the DH, but that guy fits my picture of elder statesmen.

[Fritz Buelow]

Originally posted by mawwil
We all know the SOTG has to be good at the game.

mawwil - welcome!

Good point. Shame. Someone like Joe Girardi may have ben a great statesman (smart, sees the big picture) but, alas, couldn't hit the Grand Canyon if he fell out of a plane.

[pathogan]

What, this is news that there is a double standard in this country? Of course, then a problem arises when a truly distatsteful individual uses this as his trump card, and people back off...Dimaggio was notoriously careful with what he said[possibly to hide that he didnt have much to say] Ted Williams fought tooth and nail with the Boston press, and didnt give a damn what he said...you can trace this partly back to the "new journalism" movement that came out of the 1960's, with the anti-hero replacing the hero...with griffey, it may simply have been a more laid back press in Seattle, and when he came to ohio, they wanted him to act instead of react...So, yes, ther is a distinct double standard , as there is in society at large...removing it is a long term problem...

[spitball]

How bout Jimmy Rollins of the Phillies??
That guy seems to have "it".
I know he's just starting his 2nd year, but if he lasts he's one of my picks.
As far as Giambi....I think he's great for the game. He may have tats and all but hey, it's 2002 .Tats are almost mainstream.
Sheffield by the way said some really stupid stuff here .
Remember the quote about the Dodgers never having an African-American retire in blue.That's what turned off some people.
Can you say , Jackie Robinson?
Back to statesmen.......Doug Glanville .....always funny quotes.

[sweaver]

Pat brings to mind a good point: no one would have chosen Ted Williams as an ambassador for the game while he was playing, but who now fits the profile of "elder statesman" better, especially after that outpouring of love at the All-Star Game? All things change, my friends.

[LeGrandOrange]

Glanville kind of reminds me of the NBA's Avery Johnson, not a great player but a great guy to talk to. Almost infectious, in a way.
I like your choice of his teammate as an ambassador, and I never thought about him, but then again, most people forgot about Jimmy. :) He does seem to be a great guy for this role when you look at everything...

[clemente21]

This is a neat board! It's nice to find intelligent baseball conversation without a bunch of trolls.

If Mark Grace was just a little better player, he could be a SOTG as he has everything else: personality/speaking ability, love of the game, minimal negative press, and only one team move.

I think Nomar Garciaparra is going to become one.

The fact that Edgar Martinez isn't widely considered one is a shame, brought on by the fact that he toils in the TV hinterlands of Seattle.

[satchel]

Welcome to the board, Clemente21! We like it here and look forward to your contribution. Great choice of screen name too. :)

I have always liked Mark Grace - but he's a smoker, that will cut down on his public image. :smokin:

[Duque]

During his Chicago days, Grace was known as a pretty hard partier, too. Day games at Wrigley made for late nights.

[bill wisnosky]

How about Mike Sweeney for starters.......?

Greg Maddux...........................

Jason Kendall:) :)

[mawwil]

Fred McGriff would be a good candidate. The only problem with him is that he moved too much and spent time on a far off planet (home of the D-Rays). I like the Crime Dog, underrated.

Maybe what actually makes these guys great is actually hindsight. Yeah, we knew that Gwynn and Ripken were there, but they played 15+ years. It was kind of obvious to us by the time they retired. So, maybe we just have to wait and see. Then look back and thank God for guys who really love the game.

P.S. How do you get those really cool icons underneath your name?

[Fritz Buelow]

Originally posted by mawwil
P.S. How do you get those really cool icons underneath your name?

http://www.netshrine.com/vbulletin2/misc.php?s=&action=faq&page=1#avatar