Fuzzy Bear
02-26-2002, 07:17 PM
I was amazed at the passion in the thread on Steve Garvey. Was he overrated or underrated; everyone had an opinion. The discussion inevitably drifted to "Is he a HOFer?" (Garvey's persona appears such that even his bigger fans seem to deny wanting to enshrine him.
The question of whether Garvey (or anyone else on the ballot) is a "Hall-of-Famer" is not easy to answer. That's because we have two Hall-of-Fames.
First, there's the True Believer's Hall-of-Fame. This Hall will only enshrine players at the top of both peak and career value; superstars with long careers. Koufax and Dean would have trouble cracking this circle; Tinker, Evers, and Chance would have to pay admission to get in. Only the Ruths, Gehrigs, Aarons, Mayses, Mathewsons, Spahns, etc. make it in.
In Cooperstown, NY, however, is the REAL Hall-of-Fame. This Hall-of-Fame's standards vary. You usually qualify as a position player if you are the best player in the league at your position for a period of years, unless there was a jam-up of talent concentrated at your position (e.g. Mays and Mantle in the same era, Aaron and Clemente, etc.) However, this is the high standard; there are a number of players who were "stars" but not "superstars" who are in the HOF.
When I evaluate whether or not a player should go into Cooperstown, I take a look at players not in the Hall who qualify. Where does my guy stand, relative to these players? Who has done what my guy has done and is NOT in the Hall-of-Fame?
Steve Garvey IS qualified for the Hall-of-Fame!!!! Why? Easy; he played 10 seasons. That's what QUALIFIES you. Not everyone who is qualified gets the job; presumably the best person does. If I want to see if, say, Al Oliver, should be in the HOF, two things I would consider is (a) how many players with similar careers are NOT in the HOF, and (b) how does he stack up against other qualified players who are not in the HOF.
It is clear that Steve Garvey and Al Oliver are Hall-of-Fame caliber players IF WE GO BY WHOM THE HALL-OF-FAME HAS ALREADY ENSHRINED.
However, where are they in line, vis a vis the other outsiders who are qualified?
I certainly think that the Cooperstown line begins with Ron Santo and Gary Carter. No one who has had the careers they have had at their positions is not in the Hall-of-Fame.
The line begins to split between peak and career value. For peak value, I would rate Tony Oliva and Al Rosen at the top. They had short careers, but incredible peaks. Don Mattingly is on line here.
For career value, I think that the line forks off to Tommy John, Jim Kaat, and Bert Blyleven. The line forms behind them.
I'm not saying who should be in or out (except for Santo and Carter). Do any of you agree with this line? Who stands behind these guys, and in what order?
The question of whether Garvey (or anyone else on the ballot) is a "Hall-of-Famer" is not easy to answer. That's because we have two Hall-of-Fames.
First, there's the True Believer's Hall-of-Fame. This Hall will only enshrine players at the top of both peak and career value; superstars with long careers. Koufax and Dean would have trouble cracking this circle; Tinker, Evers, and Chance would have to pay admission to get in. Only the Ruths, Gehrigs, Aarons, Mayses, Mathewsons, Spahns, etc. make it in.
In Cooperstown, NY, however, is the REAL Hall-of-Fame. This Hall-of-Fame's standards vary. You usually qualify as a position player if you are the best player in the league at your position for a period of years, unless there was a jam-up of talent concentrated at your position (e.g. Mays and Mantle in the same era, Aaron and Clemente, etc.) However, this is the high standard; there are a number of players who were "stars" but not "superstars" who are in the HOF.
When I evaluate whether or not a player should go into Cooperstown, I take a look at players not in the Hall who qualify. Where does my guy stand, relative to these players? Who has done what my guy has done and is NOT in the Hall-of-Fame?
Steve Garvey IS qualified for the Hall-of-Fame!!!! Why? Easy; he played 10 seasons. That's what QUALIFIES you. Not everyone who is qualified gets the job; presumably the best person does. If I want to see if, say, Al Oliver, should be in the HOF, two things I would consider is (a) how many players with similar careers are NOT in the HOF, and (b) how does he stack up against other qualified players who are not in the HOF.
It is clear that Steve Garvey and Al Oliver are Hall-of-Fame caliber players IF WE GO BY WHOM THE HALL-OF-FAME HAS ALREADY ENSHRINED.
However, where are they in line, vis a vis the other outsiders who are qualified?
I certainly think that the Cooperstown line begins with Ron Santo and Gary Carter. No one who has had the careers they have had at their positions is not in the Hall-of-Fame.
The line begins to split between peak and career value. For peak value, I would rate Tony Oliva and Al Rosen at the top. They had short careers, but incredible peaks. Don Mattingly is on line here.
For career value, I think that the line forks off to Tommy John, Jim Kaat, and Bert Blyleven. The line forms behind them.
I'm not saying who should be in or out (except for Santo and Carter). Do any of you agree with this line? Who stands behind these guys, and in what order?