Instant Aging (Merged Threads)

[Xanadu Dragon]

I love it.

http://espn.go.com/mlb/news/2002/0215/1333208.html

[Skip]

About damn time too. Too bad it took 9/11 to get enforcement in order. This will be (lets hope) a black eye removed from the globalization of baseball.

[Xanadu Dragon]

I can't wait to see who else ages before us.

[sweaver]

Lots of Latin players, you betcha.

[Skip]

Originally posted by Xanadu Dragon
I can't wait to see who else ages before us.
It could be our own version of the "celebrity death watch" poll - baseball age watch or some such rot. I expect, however, that we'll find that Harold Baines is still dead. Uhh, sorry....

[sweaver]

So who's oldest?
Harold Baines?
Julio Franco?
Or......someone else?
Tune in tomorrow, on......."Age That Ballplayer!"

[Xanadu Dragon]

Let's not forget they already got Ramon Ortiz! How many of these guys do you think will be nailed?

Abraham Nunez
Adrian Beltre
Al Reyes
Albert Pujols
Alberto Castillo
Alfonso Soriano
Amaury Telemaco
Angel Berroa
Angel Pena
Antonio Alfonseca
Aramis Ramirez
Armando Benitez
Bartolo Colon
Benito Baez
Carlos Almanzar
Carlos Febles
Carlos Pena
Cristian Guzman
Damaso Marte
D'Angelo Jimenez
Danny Bautista
David Ortiz
Deivi Cruz
Elvis Pena
Enrique Wilson
Erick Almonte
Esteban Yan
Felix Heredia
Felix Martinez
Felix Rodriguez
Fernando Tatis
Francisco Cordero
Geraldo Guzman
Guillermo Mota
Hector Carrasco
Henry Mateo
Hipolito Pichardo
Israel Alcantara
Jesus Colome
Jesus Sanchez
Joaquin Benoit
Jose Acevedo
Jose Nunez
Jose Cabrera
Jose Fernandez
Jose Guillen
Jose Jimenez
Jose Lima
Jose Mercedes
Jose Mesa
Jose Offerman
Jose Ortiz
Jose Paniagua
Jose Rijo
Jose Vizcaino
Josias Manzanillo
Juan Cruz
Juan Encarnacion
Juan Sosa
Juan Uribe
Julian Tavarez
Julio Franco
Julio Lugo
Julio Ramirez
Lesli Brea
Lorenzo Barcelo
Luis Castillo
Luis Pineda
Luis Saturria
Luis Vizcaino
Manuel Aybar
Mario Encarnacion
Mendy Lopez
Miguel Batista
Miguel Tejada
Neifi Perez
Nelson Cruz
Octavio Dotel
Odalis Perez
Pasqual Coco
Pedro Astacio
Pedro Borbon
Pedro Feliz
Pedro Martinez
Pedro Santana
Placido Polanco
Quilvio Veras
Raul Mondesi
Ruben Mateo
Sammy Sosa
Sandy Martinez
Santiago Perez
Stan Javier
Timo Perez
Tony Batista
Tony Eusebio
Valerio de los San
Victor Santos
Vladimir Guerrero
Wascar Serrano
Willis Roberts
Wilson Betemit
Wilson Delgado
Wilton Guerrero

[SmedIndy]

The one I always heard about was Carlos Garcia (remember him). He totally fell off the turnip truck way before his time, and it was alleged he was 3 to 5 years older than he said he was.

In Ball Four, Rollie Sheldon really snowed the Yankees one year by lying about his age after he got out of the service.

Hey XD - Do you just like typing long lists of names? I can get you a job!

[Xanadu Dragon]

Cut and paste smed, cut and paste.

I only type with 4 or 5 fingers - - no way would I take on a list like that.

[SmedIndy]

Still, I could use you :D

[LeGrandOrange]

Some of those guys are retired.
In my warped cynicism, I'd like to see Erick Almonte step up in case he's older. We're already used to Almontes lying about their age. :)
Wasn't Wilson Betemit's age lied about before?
BTW, oldest will still be Julio Franco. Baines was the last remnant of the National Association, Franco was will merely have been around when the National League was formed. :) Since Baines is retired, he gets the title by default.
(Franco's age is at question, even. There's a two year discrepancy)

[satchel]

When Furcal came up there's was a small hubbub about his being the first major leaguer born in the 80's. Now that it appears he was not the first major leaguer born in the 80's, who was?

[Fuzzy Bear]

There needs to be an investigation into signing practices of players who suddenly turn out to be years older than initially recorded.

A ballplayer is a commodity, with a limited shelf life, and, especially for non-pitchers, a somewhat predicatable aging pattern and learning curve. If a team knows that a player is three years older than his listed age, and trade him, are they not committing fraud.

I remember when Junior Felix was the next inductee to Cooperstown---all he had to do was get on with his career. It turned out he was three years older than his original stated age. Was this done with the complicity of the scout who signed him? What did the Blue Jays know about this, and when did they know it? The same question goes for the Braves about Furcal. Ballplayers don't like to be considered commodities, but, at one level, they are. They are bought and sold and traded. Truth in labeling is as appropriate here as anywhere else,

[LeGrandOrange]

Originally posted by satchel
When Furcal came up there's was a small hubbub about his being the first major leaguer born in the 80's. Now that it appears he was not the first major leaguer born in the 80's, who was?

None other then "Royal" Albert Pujols. He beats C.C. Sabathia by only a few days. At least, that's what the birth certificate will have us believe.

[Xanadu Dragon]

I'm going with CC - - there's been whispers about Pujols too.

[LeGrandOrange]

Weird that by the time this decade is over, we'll likely have had 3 guys who were the first player born in the 1980's to play ball.
We're getting precipitously (sp?) close to when players younger then me debut...I wonder how many players will be the first player like that to play baseball. :)

[SmedIndy]

Puppy.

I'm getting close to the age where no one is left who is my age.

I'm sad Mark Petkovsek was released. He was born on my exact birth date.

[satchel]

Originally posted by SmedIndy
Puppy.

I'm getting close to the age where no one is left who is my age.

I'm sad Mark Petkovsek was released. He was born on my exact birth date.

those are the two main baseball milestones, aren't they - the first time you are as old as a young player, and the last time you are as young as an old player.

Andy Pettitte is my junior by only a month or two. He's the player I tend to gauge my baseball-relative age by. When he retires ... :eek: Let's just say I'm hoping Clemens continues to influence him for more reasons than one.

To get back on topic, I agree with Fuzzy that it's highly suspect of teams to deal in players that they know are older than they say. It's not enough to maintain plausible deniability, as willful ignorance is really no excuse. However, when the information is out there to be uncovered relatively easily, perhaps teams on the receiving end of the deal should do a bit more research as well.

One bit of sadness in all this is that it undercuts the achievements of the young players somewhat. I don't think any of us would be significantly less impressed with Pujols if from the beginning he was advertised as 23 instead of 21. Now, though (if he is 23), there will always be this lingering shadow, like "sure his rookie year was great, but he wasn't as young as we all thought."

[pathogan]

Where is Luis Tiant?

[Fleet N. Ema]

Originally posted by SmedIndy
The one I always heard about was Carlos Garcia (remember him). He totally fell off the turnip truck way before his time, and it was alleged he was 3 to 5 years older than he said he was.

In Ball Four, Rollie Sheldon really snowed the Yankees one year by lying about his age after he got out of the service.

Hey XD - Do you just like typing long lists of names? I can get you a job!

That did it--I'm suing you for emotional trauma. Oh yeah, remember "Garce the Farce" in Toronto. His age was higher than his OPS.

http://www.angelfire.com/pq/indianbob/poetry.html

(second poem)

Best Regards

John

[hmrsf]

check this out! Hipolito Pichardo birthday is 8/22/69. That makes him months younger than me. He has lied about so many things that fat -------, I am not surprised. I bet he is easily 5 years older than he says he is.

[LeGrandOrange]

Originally posted by Fleet N. Ema


That did it--I'm suing you for emotional trauma. Oh yeah, remember "Garce the Farce" in Toronto. His age was higher than his OPS.

http://www.angelfire.com/pq/indianbob/poetry.html

(second poem)

Best Regards

John

Hah! You know, I saw that game with Josias Manzanillo that you mentioned about...the infamous "two balls in one strike" game. :p
Amazing he's a good pitcher again.
But anyway!

[Fleet N. Ema]

Originally posted by LeGrandOrange


Hah! You know, I saw that game with Josias Manzanillo that you mentioned about...the infamous "two balls in one strike" game. :p
Amazing he's a good pitcher again.
But anyway!

Yup, he's the third "Unit" in MLB:

The Big Unit, the Little Unit, and the MASH Unit.

Best Regards

John

[Fuzzy Bear]

Originally posted by satchel
I don't think any of us would be significantly less impressed with Pujols if from the beginning he was advertised as 23 instead of 21. Now, though (if he is 23), there will always be this lingering shadow, like "sure his rookie year was great, but he wasn't as young as we all thought."

I WOULD be significantly less impressed w/Pujols if he's really 23 (instead of 21).

I wouldn't be less impressed with his SEASON; he won the ROY award the way a future Hall-of-Famer would win it.

I would, however, be less impressed with his future potential for growth if he is 23. Don't get me wrong; Pujols is already a star, and will have a Hall-of-Fame career if he just stays as good as he is; he doesn't have to get BETTER to be a Hall-of Famer.

However, Pujols' rookie season has spawned talk of him as a star of the magnitude of Mantle or Mays. The two guys we speak of in that light these days, Griffey Jr (who has slipped) and A-Rod (who is still improving) had seasons like Pujols did in 2001 when they were 21. At age 23, both of these guys were better than Pujols was last year. This will affect Pujols' salary significantly (not that he won't be rich, of course; he'll be a
millionaire if it comes out that he's 30). It will affect him in arbitration, in the long-term insane contract he'll get someday. It'll affect it (and it should) because there's a difference between the next Dale Murphy and the next Mickey Mantle.

Another side effect the "downaging" of Latin players will have is a subtle form of discrimination in salary. The "How Old Is He, Really?" question will become an albatross on Latin players, often unfairly, unless these birth certificate shenanigans with players, often foreign players, stops, and stops now.

[satchel]

Originally posted by Fuzzy Bear


Another side effect the "downaging" of Latin players will have is a subtle form of discrimination in salary. The "How Old Is He, Really?" question will become an albatross on Latin players, often unfairly, unless these birth certificate shenanigans with players, often foreign players, stops, and stops now.

This is a great point, and it makes me wonder again why the players are continually willing to lie about their ages.

[SmedIndy]

Originally posted by satchel


This is a great point, and it makes me wonder again why the players are continually willing to lie about their ages.

Satch - follow the money.....

[sweaver]

Originally posted by satchel
This is a great point, and it makes me wonder again why the players are continually willing to lie about their ages.

I find it amusing that my colleague, taking his screen name from a player famous for fudging his own birthdate, would say this.

Remember how Old Satch would play innocent on the subject? Bill Veeck does a bit in his book about trying to track down Satchel's actual age.

[satchel]

Originally posted by sweaver


I find it amusing that my colleague, taking his screen name from a player famous for fudging his own birthdate, would say this.


Touche! For Paige, though, it was part of his cultivated mystery, part of his schtick. And it was in an era where it wouldn't have affected his long-term contract status because there was no such thing as a long-term contract.

Which brings me to SmedIndy's "follow the money" -- the point I understood Fuzzy to be making is that in the long run a continuing uncertainty about the age of some Latin players is going to cost them -- and all Latin players -- as the baseball establishment becomes suspicious and wary. At worst it's a convenient to hold back on the big deals. So while there may be money to follow in the short term, it does seem like a shortsighted maneuver.

[SmedIndy]

Originally posted by satchel


At worst it's a convenient to hold back on the big deals. So while there may be money to follow in the short term, it does seem like a shortsighted maneuver.

The money they want is the upfront money to sign the player when he's "old enought". That's what the parents want. So saying a kid (like Danny Almonte) is two years younger than he is means that at age "17" he's 19 and throws like a 19 year old. Scouts drool and sign the kid to a huge deal. (Huge for the parents in comparison with what else they make their money on)

Perhaps an international draft would help this out.

[KCBOOMER]

Let's hear from Fernando about being 21 during his amazing first season.

[BuzzBuzzard]

Add Mets OF Timo Perez who ages by two years yesterday.

[Xanadu Dragon]

Originally posted by BuzzBuzzard
Add Mets OF Timo Perez who ages by two years yesterday.

Soon to be three, by the crooked numbers. He goes from 24 to 26, and then next month is his birthday, so, he'll be 27.

I feel sorry for Lee, having to change all these DOBs in his CD next year.

[bbjones]

One thing in defence of these guys:

In places like the Dominican, Mexico, Nicaragua, etc., the art of record-keeping is not afforded the same status that it is in the States. A lot of these kids were born in their little village (or big town, it hardly matters) at home, rather than in a hospital. A few months after the birth, *maybe* someone gets around to getting a birth certificate. But maybe not -- they don't need one for any particular reason, and you are likely to have to pay a fee to the notary to get it. By the time their talent emerges when they are 8 years old, no one can really remember their exact birthday. Just like it used to be in America (and still is in some places) a birth in a poor rural community is not nearly the big news that it is in middle-class suburbia. You don't have photo albums recording all the particulars.

So, while surely a number of these guys are manipulating the system to maximize dollars, there are also surely a lot of guys who really have no idea what their birthday is, or their exact age.

-Brian

[satchel]

Originally posted by bbjones
One thing in defence of these guys:
So, while surely a number of these guys are manipulating the system to maximize dollars, there are also surely a lot of guys who really have no idea what their birthday is, or their exact age.

I've heard this offered as an explanation and I really have to wonder about it. I can see it as far as not knowing if you were born in April or May or June, but not as far as not knowing if you are 16 or 18 or 20.

[Xanadu Dragon]

I'm still waiting for some leap-year baby player to come out now and say his real age is 6 or 7 years old.

[RichG]

Has anyone had their age be LESS than what they had previously maintained?

[satchel]

Originally posted by RichG
Has anyone had their age be LESS than what they had previously maintained?
Ha! good point, Rich, and one which goes to my skepticism about the argument cited by bbjones as well.

[Xanadu Dragon]

Didn't the Dodgers' Beltre get busted for signing too young - he lied about being older, no?

[gyb13]

Originally posted by RichG
Has anyone had their age be LESS than what they had previously maintained?
There was someone else who also "became younger" recently, but only by a few days, maybe a month. Can't remember who...:help: :confuse:

[nyy26wc]

Odalis Perez just became 5 days younger.

[nyy26wc]

Originally posted by Xanadu Dragon


I feel sorry for Lee, having to change all these DOBs in his CD next year.

I'm keeping a little list and I'll do them all at once.

[Ytown Tribe fan]

Is anyone here older than Minnie Minoso was when he last put on a major league uniform? How about Satchel Paige?

I'm 10 months older than Rickey Henderson, so I'm past the point of no return, unless Charlie Hough makes a comeback.

[gyb13]

Originally posted by nyy26wc
Odalis Perez just became 5 days younger.
That's right! ATM to the rescue!!! :agree: :cool2: :thumb: :hooray: :hscheer: <superhero smilie>

[TreAnt985]

I've seen reports of probably 20 players who had their ages changed when officials started checking visas. Does anyone have a list of everyone whose ages have been changed, and what they were and what they are no?
I saw the Enrique Wilson didn't know his real age until last week!

[gyb13]

"He's maturing." --Bobby Cox, Braves manager, on infielder Rafael Furcal's jump in age from 21 to 23

[Fuzzy Bear]

Originally posted by bbjones
One thing in defence of these guys:

In places like the Dominican, Mexico, Nicaragua, etc., the art of record-keeping is not afforded the same status that it is in the States.

So, while surely a number of these guys are manipulating the system to maximize dollars, there are also surely a lot of guys who really have no idea what their birthday is, or their exact age.

-Brian

I don't deny that there is some truth to this; however, when major league personnel become complicit in "baseball ages", it's the moral equivilent of doctoring the odometer on the car you are about to purchase. It's called fraud.

[satchel]

Originally posted by TreAnt985
Does anyone have a list of everyone whose ages have been changed, and what they were and what they are no?

Baseball America has a complete list of all (major and minor league) ballplayers whose ages have changed in recent weeks, at
http://www.baseballamerica.com:81/today/features/agechart.html

The biggest change was +6 years, for Marcus Agramonte, released by Texas after his true age was discovered. A very few players have gotten younger.