Who's the Best SS of All-Time? (NDF Contest - SS)

[Duque]

If you need a refresher on the rules, you can find them here:

http://www.netshrine.com/vbulletin2...=&threadid=1252

This thread is for debate and discussion on the players selected by each team as a Shortstop. It's open not only to the contestants themselves, but also to any other forum members wishing to weigh in. Voting is to take place in a separate thread. We'll rotate once per week, so we'll conclude the discussion and voting for this position on Tuesday, 19 February 2002.

Here's the Shortstops selected in the draft:

Mexicani Blue - Tony Fernandez
hmrsf - Robin Yount
b-ball-lunachik - Lou Boudreau
redsox617 - Joe Cronin
ChrisCary - Honus Wagner
Throwback - Arky Vaughan
Duque - Barry Larkin
Yogi#8Fan - George Davis
Golden Bear - Cal Ripken, Jr.
Buzz Buzzard - Luke Appling
pjl7 - Ernie Banks
nyy26wc - Alex Rodriguez
Xanadu Dragon - Ozzie Smith

[Xanadu Dragon]

Ozzie Smith - -

greatest fielding SS of all-time - - that's a given.

With the bat, few SS that played as long as he did contributed with the bat as well:

RUNS CREATED/GAME
1 Honus Wagner 8.26
2 Cal Ripken 5.40
3 Ozzie Smith 4.24
4 Luis Aparicio 3.85

min 10,000 PA on the above list

Bill James lists him as the 7th best SS of all-time (behind Wagner, Vaughan, Ripken, Yount, Banks and Larkin) - - -

- - and, this is why he should be no lower than 6th or 7th on your ballot as well!

[ChrisCary]

Thank you, Mr. Dragon

[Xanadu Dragon]

Originally posted by ChrisCary
Thank you, Mr. Dragon

No biggie - Honus is the best - no secret.

[Duque]

Maybe we can get a unanimous 1st place vote this time?

James rates Wagner as the top offensive and defensive shortstop, though if you take out his playing time at other positions, Ozzie beats him in defense.

Barry Larkin, though, may be one of the more underrated players on this list. James calls him "one of the ten most complete players in baseball history" (among all positions). Larkin hits for average (career .300 BA), has above-average power for a SS (career .454 SLG), gets on-base (career .377 OBP), is an excellent basestealer (362 SB compared to just 73 CS - an 83% success rate), and plays Gold Glove defense.

[Xanadu Dragon]

My only knock on Larkin is that I see him as brittle.

[b-ball-lunachik]

Originally posted by ChrisCary
Thank you, Mr. Dragon

oh, so now that you think you have the best at a certain position, you come into the debate thread? :D

[b-ball-lunachik]

Originally posted by Duque
Maybe we can get a unanimous 1st place vote this time?



been there, done that with Walter Johnson, no? :D

[Duque]

Originally posted by b-ball-lunachik


been there, done that with Walter Johnson, no? :D

This is true! How soon I forget.

[b-ball-lunachik]

Originally posted by ChrisCary


I've been here when I thought something I could say or point out may influence a vote and have read the posts when I felt like I needed more information.

And by the way, I don't think I have the best SS, I'm sure that you also know

ahh, I see...well, I'm sure you don't care what James or Total Baseball says anyway...if I'm quoting you correctly:

Originally posted by ChrisCary


I've been VERY surprised at how many people reference or quote other people's lists in explaining their choices or trying to convince the rest of us of their player.

so, do you have an argument for Wagner that doesn't rely on Steve's list from James? :D I'm sure you saw enough games of Wagner's to wax poetic, no? Or is your time machine broken? :D

[Xanadu Dragon]

Did Chris delete a post or something? Luna - what are you quoting?

[b-ball-lunachik]

Originally posted by Xanadu Dragon
Did Chris delete a post or something? Luna - what are you quoting?

Sorry for the confusion Steve...just busting Chris' chops because he's told me that I rely too much on that stuff...and for older players, I'm still waiting for the answer on what I'm supposed to use !! :D I quoted that from the other thread on "Question about voting process", not this one....

[Xanadu Dragon]

Now I see :dizzy:

[pjl7]

Anyone using external resources, please remember that some sources (such as Bill James Electronic Encyc.) list Banks as a first baseman. His RC/G is way better than guys like Smith and Aparicio but sometimes his name gets omitted.

PS- He won a Gold Glove and two MVP awards at short so a huge penalty for career defense isn't warranted.

[Duque]

I think James does rate Banks as a SS. Besides, even if you were to separate Banks the SS from Banks the 1B, his numbers in the 8 or 9 seasons he played the majority of his games at short would be impressive nonetheless.

[b-ball-lunachik]

fair enough pjl7 -- Total Baseball doesn't have him high enough to have a write up on him, so I'm not sure how he's ranked in there...in his player register, it lists all positions...I'm going to post all the TB rankings for SS but Banks definitely in my book should have been much higher...

this has nothing to do with my voting or anything -- obviously he played almost half his games at SS... I'm just curious to learn...why did he switch from SS to 1B? was it an injury thing, another ss coming up? thanks to anyone who can answer! :)

[Duque]

Originally posted by Xanadu Dragon
My only knock on Larkin is that I see him as brittle.

This is probably the only real quibble with Larkin. Not including the strike-shortened seasons, he averages only around 125-130 games per year.

Due to the demands of the position, do middle infielders tend to miss, on average, more games than, say, 1st basemen?

[Duque]

Originally posted by b-ball-lunachik
I'm just curious to learn...why did he switch from SS to 1B? was it an injury thing, another ss coming up? thanks to anyone who can answer! :)

When he first came up, he was shaky defensively, though he did work at it, and ended up winning a Gold Glove at short (though Joe Torre won a Gold Glove at catcher, and he was never good defensively). But, the primary reason he moved to first was, I think, because he was getting older and he suffered a lot of leg injuries which affected his fielding.

[Xanadu Dragon]

Originally posted by Duque
Due to the demands of the position, do middle infielders tend to miss, on average, more games than, say, 1st basemen?

- - - What is something that Cal Ripken Jr. never said to Mark McGwire, Alex?

[Duque]

Touche - but you could say Ripken and McGwire were the exceptions to the rule.

And Cal was frequently injured - he just played through a lot of them.

[Xanadu Dragon]

Ozzie Smith played in 150+ games in a season 10 times - - 2nd in SS next to Cal.

[Duque]

Here's the Bill James rankings:

1. Honus Wagner
2. Arky Vaughan
3. Cal Ripken, Jr.
4. Robin Yount
5. Ernie Banks
6. Barry Larkin
7. Ozzie Smith
8. Joe Cronin

11. Luke Appling
12. Lou Boudreau

14. George Davis

17. Alex Rodriguez

24. Tony Fernandez

I'm still waiting for Scott Boras joining the forum and posting how A-Rod is the greatest SS of all-time.

[Throwback]

Obviously, Wagner's the best, and I'd say Banks is second. Other than that, I don't see any reason not to put Arky Vaughan on top of the list. Ozzie was okay with the bat, but he lacked so much compared to some of the other guys here. He won't be at the bottom, though, to be sure. Anyway, even Bill James likes Arky, am I right? Plus he was trained extensively by none other than the Flying Dutchman himself, so that has to work as coattails, right. .318 career average, as many as 19 HRs in a season, 128 career triples, solid baserunning, and excellent defense. #3, I think.

[b-ball-lunachik]

Since Duque posted James' list...here's Total Baseball's rankings of the ShortStops in this draft (note -- there are other shortstops between these rankings, but I'm only listing the ones drafted for the purposes of this contest).

TPR rating follows name, followed by ranking all time against all players:

1. Honus Wagner 82.0 (11th all time)
2. George Davis 51.4 (23rd all time)
3. Robin Yount 46.0 (t-38th all time)
4. Lou Boudreau 42.5 (50th all time)
5. Luke Appling 42.4 (t-51st all time)
6. Ozzie Smith 42.4 (t-51st all time)
7. Cal Ripken Jr. 42.2 (t-53rd all time)
8. Barry Larkin 41.2 (57th all time)
9. Joe Cronin 39.9 (66th all time)
10. Arky Vaughan 39.7 (68th all time)
11. Ernie Banks 26.9 (t-121st all time)
12. Alex Rodriguez 25.3 (t-141st all time)
13. Tony Fernandez 19.9 (t-202nd all time)

After Wagner and Davis, it really becomes very close all the way down through number 10. I'm very surprised that Banks finishes so low on that list -- I like this source because they factor so many things in like ball park, era, etc but I'd be curious to know why Banks was that low -- I haven't figured out my rankings, but I'll be ranking him much higher than that...also should be noted, that obviously A-Rod's career isn't even half over, yet he's still got a pretty high TPR for only playing 8 seasons...

[Throwback]

If the great Bill James is willing to go so far, fine. I endorse my guy as #2. Go Bill.

[Duque]

I agree with Total Baseball that Wagner is #1, but I just don't see George Davis as #2, or Boudreau or Appling that high. I think that mostly comes from overvaluing the defensive and baserunning stats (in the case of Davis, especially), from a time when defensive and baserunning stats were very sketchy.

[BuzzBuzzard]

Originally posted by Duque
I'm still waiting for Scott Boras joining the forum and posting how A-Rod is the greatest SS of all-time. While he may not be today, he will be when it is all said and done.

[Duque]

Originally posted by BuzzBuzzard
While he may not be today, he will be when it is all said and done.

Assuming something drastic doesn't happen and he never plays another game again, I agree.

[Throwback]

Not the best. There is no player, at any position, today who is or will be as good as Honus Wagner. (Or Arky Vaughan)

[Duque]

Even if A-Rod breaks the all-time HR record?

[Throwback]

Nope. That record will be so inflated if somebody breaks it.

[hmrsf]

Robin Yount began his Major League career in 1974 with the Milwaukee Brewers. The 19 year old played for 20 seasons with one team and ended his playing career in 1993.

Where he ranks all time:
-#29 for extra base hits with 960
-#86 for triples 126
-#13 for doubles 583
-#54 for RBI 1,406
-#31 for runs 1,632
-#16 for hits 3,184
-#23 for total bases
******this is for all players all time.*************

[hmrsf]

Robin Yount won the MVP 2x.

1982 Robin Yount lead the AL with 46 Doubles, 210 Hits, a .578 Slugging Average and 367 Total bases. He also had 28 HR and 114 RBI. Also in that year he recorded the first player to have 2 four hit games during the World Series.

He had a solid glove and was a 1x GG. He was a 3x All- Star.

He is also ranked 4th by James and 3rd by Total baseball of all shortstops of all time.Rockin' Robin Yount Rules!!! :D

[Duque]

Originally posted by Throwback
Nope. That record will be so inflated if somebody breaks it.

But a guy out of the SS position? I usually think Boras is full of hot air, but when you look at what Rodriguez has accomplished, at his age, he may end up one of the most complete players of all time - even though he doesn't steal many bases anymore.

Sure, the era inflates his stats, but the same could be said for a lot of guys in the 30s.

[Duque]

Here's a question I have about Yount - he was a Gold Glover at short, so why did the Brewers keep trying to move him out of the infield? It couldn't have been injuries - as CF is just as difficult a defensive position to play, right?

[hmrsf]

According to TPR he had 2x shoulder surgical repair and was moved to the outfield.

IMHO, centerfield is as difficult but the amount of fielding chances decreases....no?

I hope you are not saying that I did not pick a legit short stop. Yount was solid in that position and posted MVP #s during the regular season AND post season in 1982.

[Golden Bear]

Yeah, it was injuries with Yount; he couldn'y get the giddyup on the throws from the SS position following the surgeries. So he became a CF with good range and a mediocre arm.

Pre-injury, he had a rocket; very good range too.

[Golden Bear]

Ripken...This is all fresh in your minds, so I woin't belabor it.

3000+ hits

400+ HR's

Great fielder in his heyday; best FP ever, single season. Made up for only slighly above average range with positioning and great reach (height about 6'4-1/2)

Redefined the possible at the SS position; one of the most unique players in history before the late 90's super SS emerged.

And, of course, there's the streak. The most amazing thing about it is that he did it at the SS position, with all the bumps and bruises you get there. If anyone does ever challenge the streak, he'll probably be a corner IF or an OF. Ripken didn't keep the streak going with DH or PH -- he played virtually every inning of every game over 2632 games. That durability will never be matched.

He had a long decline period after switching to 3b, but one should probably focus on the numbers he compiled during a long (about 14-15 year) prime -- longer than virtually all the players we're looking at, save Wagner. A few great seasons, and always good ones, particularly considering Cal's sterling defense and durability -- for years the O's has an extra roster spot to work with because they didn't need a utility IF that could play SS. That's a hard to quantify contribution.

[Fuzzy Bear]

Originally posted by b-ball-lunachik
I'm just curious to learn...why did he switch from SS to 1B? was it an injury thing, another ss coming up? thanks to anyone who can answer! :)

Banks has a knee injury, as someone else mentioned. However, Banks won the Gold Glove at SS as late as 1960.

Banks' mid-career position shift, in my opinion, did not help the Cubs, nor Banks. Banks' offensive stats, after the move to 1B in 1962, were not that impressive; he was able to get 500 HRs, but he was never considered tops at 1B. Had Banks finished his career as a SS, his reputation as a great player would not have suffered some of the damage it has (many people forget that Banks was a SS), and the Cubs would have, in my opinion, been a stronger team on the field with 120 games of Banks and 40 of a sub at SS than by what he did at 1B after 1962.

[Fuzzy Bear]

Who is better than A-Rod and Jeter? I know they are young, but which SS in history have reached higher peaks of performance?

I think A-Rod's 2001 season was the best overall regular season a SS ever had. How could it not be?

Derek Jeter is the best player on a dominant team. He is the Mantle of this era on the Yankees, the best player and the leader on a team that always wins the pennant.

Honus Wagner is still the best in terms of career value. A-Rod and Derek may both top Wagner when they're done; they're THAT GOOD!!!! They dwarf Cal, Ozzie, and Barry, in terms of peak value, and I don't mean that as an insult. I love Cal, Ozzie, and Barry, but these new guys may be the Ruth and Cobb of shortstops.

[Duque]

I agree about Rodriguez - may end up the best ever, and Jeter could likely make top 5 or 6.

What about Garciaparra? Or do the lack of games played and the nagging injuries belie that his days at the position may be numbered?

[Fuzzy Bear]

Originally posted by Duque
What about Garciaparra? Or do the lack of games played and the nagging injuries belie that his days at the position may be numbered?

In my opinion, Garciaparra is significantly behind A-Rod and Derek. Three reasons:

A: Injuries

B: Significantly less plate discipline. A hacker will not age as well as a more disciplined hitter.

C: Garciaparra was 24 when he was Rookie of the Year; Jeter was 22. Jeter could be expected to have much more growth potential. A-Rod had the best rookie season of them all at age 21.

Garciaparra has also played in the best hitters park, whereas Jeter has played in Yankee Stadium, and A-Rod (until 2001) in Safeco Field.

Garciaparra appears to be headed for Cooperstown, barring more injuries. As a SS, he's the Duke; A-Rod and Derek are Willie and Mickey.

[hmrsf]

Guess we can debate this......or better yet, let time tell it all.


A hacker? WOW! You must have one tough standard. Also, Nomar has had one major injury. Cut the guy some slack.

:shakehd:

[hmrsf]

One more fact, Fenway has not been a hitters park since 1988. Due to the structual changes (addition of the 600 club) Fenway is no longer and has no longer been a hitters park.:rolleyes:

[hmrsf]

Originally posted by Golden Bear
Yeah, it was injuries with Yount; he couldn'y get the giddyup on the throws from the SS position following the surgeries. So he bacame a CF with good range and a mediocre arm.

Pre-injury, he had a rocket; very good range too.

Funny how he such a mediocre arm that they placed him in center field and that mediocre arm won him the MVP as a center fielder.:rolleyes:

[Fuzzy Bear]

Originally posted by hmrsf
Guess we can debate this......or better yet, let time tell it all.


A hacker? WOW! You must have one tough standard. Also, Nomar has had one major injury. Cut the guy some slack.

:shakehd:

Don't get me wrong; I like Nomar. He still projects out to be a great player. His accomplishments to date have been tremendous. He is, however, playing in the same league, at the same time, with two guys at the same position who are, in my opinion, even better. (What makes A-Rod and Derek better is not so much performance to date as age and health.)

I do think that Nomar can improve his level of play by improving his plate discipline. If he can do that, it's not impossible that he will have Sammy Sosa-esque improvement in his offense. Plate discipline will help him last longer, and enhance his overall career value. If he doesn't develop plate discipline, health being equal, he'll have a significantly shorter career than Nomar or A-Rod.

[hmrsf]

I am curious....how do you define plate discipline?

[Fuzzy Bear]

Originally posted by hmrsf
I am curious....how do you define plate discipline?

Plate discipline is the ability to lay off bad pitches and draw walks.

Until 2000, Nomar had drawn 35, 33, and 51 walks, average to Juan Gone-ish totals. In 2000, he drew 61 walks.

This has a direct bearing how he will age. As he grows older, and loses the ability to hit, pitchers will be able to take more liberties with him, as opposed to a player who can still walk. Nomar could add 3 years to his career if he can learn to walk 75 times a year, minimum.

[hmrsf]

Plate disciple is batting >.400 into mid July. In fact no had hit that since J Olerude in '93.

Garciaparra won the batting title in the AL in '99 and '00. To me, that is plate discipline.



In 2000 he drew 61 BB to 50 K
In 1999 he drew 51 BB to 39 K

That looks like discipline to me.

[Golden Bear]

Originally posted by hmrsf


Funny how he such a mediocre arm that they placed him in center field and that mediocre arm won him the MVP as a center fielder.:rolleyes:

C'mon, don't be so touchy. Yount won in 1989 for his overall game, not his rocket arm. He fielded his position well, hit for average and power, stole bases, and was the acknowledged leader of his team.

In fairness, he compensated for his lost arm strength with a quick release, so people didn't run on him with impunity.

[hmrsf]

Must be a touchy day with all the bears.;)

I am very uncomfortable posting a negative about someones pick. I tend to highlight my own pick without the need to say dish dirt or exagerate a precieved weakness of another.

Just wanted to make it clear that Yount in no way was a defensive liabilty.

[Golden Bear]

I didn't mean to be negative; I just meant to answer the question about why he was moved to CF.

I must not have been clear before, so let me spell it out:

I am of the strong opinion that before the arm injury and the move to CF, Yount was one of the best, if not the very best, fielding SS in the AL, and only Ozzie Smith was ahead of him in the NL. (His contemporaries were Alan Trammell, Mark Belanger, Rick Burleson, Ozzie, Dave Concepcion, and Larry Bowa).

Since we're evaluating SS, his fielding in CF is a very minor point anyway -- but it wasn't bad in any event; he had great speed and got to everything, and his arm wasn't bad, just ordinary.

[Xanadu Dragon]

Lee - - Fernandez over Ozzie? Pull-ease. I'm beginning to think you totally have no respect for glove-work at all.

[hmrsf]

Thank you that was much clearer. :)

[hmrsf]

AUUUGGGGGHHHH!!! Look at the James list and Total Baseball lists. Could they be any different. Vaughn and Banks at both ends of the spectrum. All I know is where I would vote Yount and I cant vote for him!!

Insomnia does not make these baseball players more apealing.